Do angels have wings ? Were they created with wings ? Or an illusion people saw ?

[Arikel88]

Angels are special beings G-d created for some they are beings of immense power and unkown. In this topic discuss how they operated some secrets from the angels I know and give good sumamry.

 

The special science behind them cannot be understand but we know they are not so different on how G-d created Adam being that Adam can withstand his presence of the Lord. What Cherubins ? There is something special that Cherubins are considered the higher rank of angels in Judaism but Seraphims for christians are higher rank of angels. The truth is are angels beings that do miracles and manage the whole galaxy ? For some in Ezekiel scripture says that they are in reality beings with heads of bulls. That is how they really look and others say that angels are beings of fire that man cannot support.

 

What is your stance on how the angels G-d created exist what did you know or read about them ?

[Peterkin]

20 minutes ago, Arikel88 said:

What is your stance on how the angels G-d created exist what did you know or read about them ?

They seem rather a fractious lot. First the rebellion and civil war, then half of them get cast into the Pit and the other half hang out on the freshly created earth, delivering messages or making trouble and marrying all the prettiest girls* and having giant babies. I don't know about the wings, but I wouldn't trust of these guys as far as I could throw him - which might be quite a distance, what with the wings 'an all. 

*

Quote

Gen 6: 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 

[John Cuthber]

8 hours ago, Arikel88 said:

The special science behind them cannot be understand

No point asking then.
Would a passing mod care to close the thread?

[joigus]

Cherubim are mythical creatures with wings that protected the entrance to temples all across the Levant. It probably comes from a word of Akkadian origin, 𒅗𒊒𒁍 karābu , which means 'to bless'.

Successive morphings of both the concept and the imagery, have happened throughout the centuries, to end up with the Christian ones.

Josiah king of Judah was the first, to the best of my knowledge, to try to unify aspects of ancient Middle-Eastern religions into a cohesive monotheism --very much for political reasons. Akhenaten of Egypt excluded --that was a very different kind of monotheism, IMO.

There goes Ashera --wife of Yaweh--, which becomes a stick; there comes (reborn) Baal-Zebub --very abundant on hilltops, with the form of a bull--, which becomes the lord of the flies --another name for Satan--, etc.

And of course, the ancient Hebrews had a bunch of other deities, which had to be conveniently fused into the general concepts of either helpers of God, or enemies of God.

None of these things is proven beyond any doubt, but they're well understood, and very cogently so, if you study the history of the times, especially after the Assyrian-domination century and the annexation of Israel by Judah, and you pay attention to what's being discovered underground (archaeology). And if you get even the remotest idea of what happened in Constantinople during the first centuries AD, it's no mystery that we still talk about them several millenia after these things were concocted.

I forgot to say: Quetzalcoatl, the fethered --if not winged-- snake, is not real either.

Nana Mouskouri, OTOH, is real enough.

I suppose what I mean to say is: No, there are no angels.

[Bufofrog]

9 hours ago, Arikel88 said:

What is your stance on how the angels G-d created exist what did you know or read about them ?

Angels were invented in the old testament and were never described physically.  

[joigus]

17 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Only people who think they know better, can judge a wine over whiskey; I just get pissed...

OK. I don't really know. But I know better than to believe in angels.

The best vantage point is that of asking questions. Like,

Why do angels have two bird-like wings, like avians, and no mechanism to correct for direction (tail wings) which is essential to fly? Are their wings just ornament? The design that's presented in current mythology is a desaster, from an engineering POV.

Perhaps they use a bat-like design with membranes that can bend more freely?

Do they succumb to temptation? Or perhaps they did only before the beginning of history, and then things went perfect OK from then on?

And thousand and thousands more questions that I won't entertain anymore, because there's only so much time I can spend on a monumentally stupid idea, like 'angels exist'.

Bots do exist, OTOH.

[Peterkin]

43 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

Angels were invented in the old testament and were never described physically.  

They were described in several places, but not completely. Of course, many of the ancient writings have been lost or destroyed. (The early Christians did not well tolerate the documents, icons or monuments of other cultures.) Four wings, two faces, the second being that of a lion; man-like but radiant, carrying flaming swords. Since there nine classes of angel divided into three choirs, there can also be as many different physical types to do different jobs. The most frequently seen were the ones delivering messages from God, or sent out to test people's faith, and they always appear in the guise of men. Presumably the ones that mated with native girls were also man-like. That would be no surprise: God seems to like creating minions in his own image. 

[Peterkin]

20 minutes ago, joigus said:

Are their wings just ornament?

Yes, most of the time: they do a lot of walking and teleporting. I suspect the wings are mostly for lift during combat. They never have to make long, directed flights - but if they did, I imagine they'd steer with their fists, like Superman.

23 minutes ago, joigus said:

Do they succumb to temptation?

Satan did, and he talked a whole army into rebelling with him.

Does "history" have a meaning in heaven?

[swansont]

On 12/18/2021 at 11:49 PM, Arikel88 said:

Angels are special beings G-d created for some they are beings of immense power and unkown. In this topic discuss how they operated some secrets from the angels I know and give good sumamry.

 

The special science behind them cannot be understand but we know they are not so different on how G-d created Adam being that Adam can withstand his presence of the Lord. What Cherubins ? There is something special that Cherubins are considered the higher rank of angels in Judaism but Seraphims for christians are higher rank of angels. The truth is are angels beings that do miracles and manage the whole galaxy ? For some in Ezekiel scripture says that they are in reality beings with heads of bulls. That is how they really look and others say that angels are beings of fire that man cannot support.

 

What is your stance on how the angels G-d created exist what did you know or read about them ?

!

Moderator Note

If one is to take this as a topic of discussion and not preaching (because you’ve been warned about that), and that this isn’t a topic for science, by your own insistence, we’re left with religious sources…but you haven’t really provided any. 

The disappointingly vague introduction almost excuses the unserious responses and poor signal/noise. (which will be cleaned up)

 

21 hours ago, joigus said:

And thousand and thousands more questions that I won't entertain anymore, because there's only so much time I can spend on a monumentally stupid idea, like 'angels exist'.

!

Moderator Note

Angels (presumably) exist in religious literature and culture, which is the domain in which this can be discussed. 

 

Anyone who can't follow that limitation should not post.

 

[Bufofrog]

58 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

They were described in several places, but not completely.

I do not know of any description of angels in the old testament.  I only recall writings along the lines of, "an angel of the lord appeared to him...", with no description at all.

[Arikel88]

G-d appeared to Abraham with 2 angels, with the moderators warning their is science and going to talk about thier nature and source of how the bible says " G-d is consuming fire and will use mathematical equations". Use science to explain thier nature of will of angels thier different species, this forum is different from others o-o but I do not despair for i'm theologist, philosopher, and very genius person. I have argued and duked with the best in various forums and superbly beaten great minds. One guy said G-d does not exist but told him do you see your brain ? No he said. Do you see air ? No he said, but you know they are their I ask ? Yes he said. Just like you cannot see air and your brain without A mirror, so the same you cannot see God but he is there.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Arikel88

[TheVat]

One approach to this sort of metaphysics (no Nolan Ryan pics, I promise) is to see angels (or equivalents like bodhisattvas, also intermediary between man and an ultimate being) as metaphors for a connection with the divine.  If the divine is something beyond our neural capacity to perceive or understand, then some stepped-down sliver of that could present itself to the human brain as a singular entity, viz. an angel.  

By analogy, if there were a race of sentient creatures whose only perceptions were tactile and auditory (like smart moles, say), to create a pathway for vision into their minds would likely result in terror, confusion, possible mental illness.  So you might have to start with very simple impressions, like a tiny monochromatic moving dot combined with an auditory message to make it more comprehensible.  For them, an "angel."

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Arikel88 said:

G-d appeared to Abraham with 2 angels,

!

Moderator Note

A proper citation would be chapter and verse

 

1 hour ago, Arikel88 said:

Just like you cannot see air and your brain without A mirror, so the same you cannot see God but he is there.

!

Moderator Note

And this is the preaching you were told to steer clear of. A very genius person shouldn’t need to be told multiple times; I would expect they would understand the rules after on reading. 

 

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

I only recall writings along the lines of, "an angel of the lord appeared to him...", with no description at all.

Yes, most of the references are like that, vague. In many, they are specifically man-like. AFAIR only Ezekiel gives a vivid description. 

[Arikel88]

Okay Swanson please i'm sorry wasn't with intention to preach but going to discard that one just going to put 4 things that are secret of the bible about angels that people don't kno, you don't know, and something that explain and use science philosophy to explain those great things.

 

No form going to preach to ya just for philosophy, theology, and secrets of biblical proportions please not wishing to offend you or anyone.

[Peterkin]

Of course, the vast majority of angels, cherubim, seraphim, and the dear little putti so beloved of the Renaissance, don't come from the Bible at all, but from Bible-based or simply fanciful literature and art. There are also a number of angelic forms in other mythologies; that is, winged and/or flaming supernatural entities that have been co-opted into the christian folklore.

They're more a cultural - Eurocentric - icon than a strictly religious one. Eastern and American traditions have plenty of demon-like creatures, but the divine avatars appear to be unlike the angel of winged human aspect. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Peterkin

[joigus]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

One approach to this sort of metaphysics (no Nolan Ryan pics, I promise) is to see angels (or equivalents like bodhisattvas, also intermediary between man and an ultimate being) as metaphors for a connection with the divine.  If the divine is something beyond our neural capacity to perceive or understand, then some stepped-down sliver of that could present itself to the human brain as a singular entity, viz. an angel.  

By analogy, if there were a race of sentient creatures whose only perceptions were tactile and auditory (like smart moles, say), to create a pathway for vision into their minds would likely result in terror, confusion, possible mental illness.  So you might have to start with very simple impressions, like a tiny monochromatic moving dot combined with an auditory message to make it more comprehensible.  For them, an "angel."

 This has reminded me of,

Quote

7-3 Development of dynamics
While Kepler was discovering these laws, Galileo was studying the laws of motion. The problem was, what makes the planets go around? (In those days, one of the theories proposed was that the planets went around because behind them were invisible angels, beating their wings and driving the planets forward.
You will see that this theory is now modified! It turns out that in order to keep the planets going around, the invisible angels must fly in a different direction and they have no wings. Otherwise, it is a somewhat similar theory!) Galileo discovered a very remarkable fact about motion, which was essential for understanding these laws.

Richard Feynman

from: Feynman-Leighton-Sands The Feynman Lectures on Physics Vol. 1

(My emphasis.)

Interesting approach, the 'cognitive' one. Angel = hidden mechanism that people (especially in ancient times) indulged in very often --anthropomorphisation of just about everything they didn't understand.

I value this approach. I wish I understood it better. I rather lean towards the archaeological/historical perspective,* which is the direction in which I've tried --unsuccessfully, I have to say-- to bring the discussion. To me, the closest we can get to understanding how or why these old timers came up with this angel stuff, is by digging under the ground and then thinking rationally about what their possible motivations must have been.

The fact that these intermediaries between people and the gods had wings --Sumer, Akkad, Babylon's cherubim-- does not surprise me at all. Birds appear as symbols of deities as far back as Gobekli Tepe --end of the last glacial period ca. 11000 years ago. In other early human settlements birds also appear depicted as taking the decapitated bodies of the dead. The bird appears strongly in Egypt too. It must have symbolised a connection between the living and the dead for obvious reasons. In the case of Gobekli Tepe, it's vultures we're talking about. Now, it doesn't take a long stretch of the imagination to conjecture a possible reason why people believed that vultures were sacred beings in charge of helping the transit of the deceased to the netherworld. One small step, I think, takes the average Bronze-Age sophisticated mind from different kinds of birds to different kinds of angels.

* They're not mutually exclusive, of course.

Edited December 19, 2021 by joigus
minor correction

[Peterkin]

Might there not also be an element of envy? Who has not dreamed of flying? Why should earth-bound humans not desire wings in their own afterlife? 

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Arikel88 said:

Okay Swanson please i'm sorry wasn't with intention to preach but going to discard that one just going to put 4 things that are secret of the bible about angels that people don't kno, you don't know, and something that explain and use science philosophy to explain those great things.

How are they a secret of the Bible? Either they are mentioned - in which case you need to cite the passages - or they are not.

[Bufofrog]

6 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Yes, most of the references are like that, vague. In many, they are specifically man-like. AFAIR only Ezekiel gives a vivid description. 

Thanks, that description certainly is pretty angel like!

[Peterkin]

I think ol' Zeke was impressed!

[Ken Fabian]

I think angels were an illusion some people saw, that other people refused to admit they could not see, for fear of religious persecution. My understanding (could be wrong) is that representations - drawings, paintings - were prohibited amongst Jews and later Christian images of them would have had to be approved by the Church. I don't recall any that looked like the description in (by?) Ezekial but I'm not well versed in iconography.

[Peterkin]

27 minutes ago, Ken Fabian said:

My understanding (could be wrong) is that representations - drawings, paintings - were prohibited amongst Jews

Apparently not:

Quote

Some authorities hold that Judaism has no objection to photography or other forms of two-dimensional art, and depictions of humans can be seen in religious books such as the Passover Haggadah, as well as children's books about biblical and historical personages.

What they can't have is 'graven images' - that is to say, objects of worship, or icons that are prayed-to. Illustrations are okay.

27 minutes ago, Ken Fabian said:

I don't recall any that looked like the description in (by?) Ezekial

Not for want of trying! But it it wouldn't be easy.

https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/760052874590157281/?d=t&mt=login

27 minutes ago, Ken Fabian said:

later Christian images of them would have had to be approved by the Church.

Only the pictures inside the churches - of which there are plenty.

But long before, after and since, there have been pictures in art galleries, murals on outside walls, miniatures in pendants, mosaics in public baths, illustrations in books and on trading cards, sculptures in parks and graveyards and opera houses. Angels all over the place!

It doesn't have to be an illusion: it's an idea that people have just always liked.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Peterkin

[Phi for All]

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

It doesn't have to be an illusion: it's an idea that people have just always liked.

Staring into the shadows can cause imaginary predators, so I'd imagine there is a comforting corollary for imagining angels.

[CharonY]

So much of what I am going to say here is half-remembered discussions with a friend, who is a historian (with specialization in the middle ages), so I might get some things wrong.

In Christian angelogy cherubim, seraphim and seats are those closest to god and do not interact with the human world. I.e. they are not the often depicted messengers of god. They are also not generally human (seats are often depicted as flaming wheels, cherubim have four faces of which only one is human, and so on).

Typically "angels" in the Christian mythology refer to messengers of god, which are probably closests to malakim in Judaism. These were human-shaped and originally depicted as wingless. This depiction changed around the 4th century when these messengers started to get wings and were depicted as such since then. So to answer OP, the depiction of angelic beings changed over time and since around the 4th century they were created with wings, but likely not before.