Would it be possible to remodel bones?

[Findmeahope]

Hi, this has been on my mind to the point I’ve even been trying to do research into it.

Would it be possible to remodel bones? Such as the pelvis? This is in regards to sex changes. 

Looking at the male and female pelvis, the differences don’t seem so radical that it would be impossible to remodel one to look like the opposite sex. Could we theoretically speaking, make cuts in the bone and around the pelvis and place them in a wider position to match that close to a females? Obviously we would need to calculate the extra bone that would need to be put in place which I assume could be done through growing them through stem cells or taking bone from other parts of the body to fill in any gaps. To hold the bones together I’m thinking possibly a thin, strong casing with connections could be used to surround the bone. Since male and female pelvis’ have basically the same muscle attachments, I don’t think muscle would need to be cut, it’d basically just be bone.

From research I’ve done there’s been talk on stem cells and their ability to aid with scar free healing as well as aiding in healing bone during surgery, if we could selectively regulate cells activity (osteoblasts and osteoclasts for bones) to further aid in healing, then technically we could model a pelvis to that of the opposite sex? After the procedure I can imagine the surgeon going in and essentially smoothing out the bone if there’s any small bumps that have formed, etc.

 

There seems to be a split on this, some people have said you’d be better off replacing the entire pelvis completely, but I disagree if you already have something to work with.

 

appreciate any contribution to discussion.

[mistermack]

If the money is there, some doctor will give it a go. But there has to be a market, to develop the technology. Who is going to be paying? It's not likely that insurance companies or national health services would be prepared to fund that kind of thing. So you would need a steady supply of millionaire sex changers who are prepared to undergo such a drastic and dangerous procedure, for such a minor gain. 

Can't see it ever happening.  

[Peterkin]

7 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

From research I’ve done there’s been talk on stem cells and their ability to aid with scar free healing as well as aiding in healing bone during surgery, if we could selectively regulate cells activity (osteoblasts and osteoclasts for bones) to further aid in healing, then technically we could model a pelvis to that of the opposite sex? After the procedure I can imagine the surgeon going in and essentially smoothing out the bone if there’s any small bumps that have formed, etc.

Of course corrective and reconstructive surgery can change the shape of a pelvis - or any other bone. The ilium can be enlarged with grafts, or reduced by trimming; the flare might even be widened or narrowed. None of that would need any special procedure that's not available now. Cosmetically, it's perfectly feasible, either way, to produce a more desired body shape. All the doctor needs is skill and access to good surgical facilities; all the patient needs is lots of time, money and high tolerance for pain.

Functionally, it's more difficult, if not impossible. While it may be possible to enlarge a male pelvis' greater foramen to somewhat resemble a female's, you can't reduce a female's to the proportion of a male one.  Also, if you tried to mess around with the shape and configuration of either, you'd run into serious problems with the socket joint for the femur - i.e., might render the patient unable to walk.

https://onlinesciencenotes.com/differences-between-male-pelvis-and-female-pelvis/

7 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

There seems to be a split on this, some people have said you’d be better off replacing the entire pelvis completely

I'm unclear on how this works. Two sections, one surgery at a time, detaching and re-attaching the sacrum? I would be concerned about the security of that seam afterwards - I mean the spinal column and whole upper body depends on it. Might be concerned with re-establishing adequate blood supply, as well, but maybe they've figured that out. Reconstructive surgery after trauma or cancer damage is difficult enough. Undergoing such a risky procedure just to look more masculine or feminine - only slightly more, since nobody's going to replace their legs and shoulders - would be .... I dunno... crazy?

However, there may be hope of doing it better, cheaper.

https://all3dp.com/2/3d-printed-bones-projects/  

There mains, of course, the attachment of ligaments, tendons and muscles - a very complicated series of challenges, not without risk.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Peterkin

[mistermack]

It would be easier to change the brain, than the body. Whack some testosterone into you, or Oestrogen etc. 

Or "cure" yourself with prayer. It's a flippant thought today, but in the future, it will probably be possible to genuinely change sex inclination. Very controversial as far as ethics go though, but the choice will probably be there one day. 

[Peterkin]

What if people don't want to change the way they incline, or feel, or identify themselves? 

Might it not be less trouble to change the way society reacts to masculine-looking women and a feminine-looking men? If we were just more broadly accepting of other people's appearance, maybe nobody would have to change their bodies or their brains or their orientation... 

[iNow]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

Can't see it ever happening.  

57 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

What if people don't want to change the way they incline, or feel, or identify themselves? 

It’s an anatomy thread, not economics or psychology. The question is whether it’s possible and you’re both hijacking the thread 

[TheVat]

9 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

 

There seems to be a split on this, some people have said you’d be better off replacing the entire pelvis completely, but I disagree if you already have something to work with.

 

Who are "some people?" I mean, yes, I disagree also, but am curious what would lead someone to see pelvic replacement as feasible.  Any citations would be welcome.  

[mistermack]

50 minutes ago, iNow said:

you’re both hijacking the thread

Read the last sentence of the OP

[Peterkin]

56 minutes ago, iNow said:

The question is whether it’s possible and you’re both hijacking the thread 

My first post was entirely on point. In the second, I my intention was not to hijack; only to respond.

But if it's important to adhere strictly to category, I shall do so henceforward. 

Afterthought: Anatomy, Physiology and Neuroscience could, without too great an effort, include hormone therapies.

[Findmeahope]

On 1/7/2022 at 10:53 PM, mistermack said:

If the money is there, some doctor will give it a go. But there has to be a market, to develop the technology. Who is going to be paying? It's not likely that insurance companies or national health services would be prepared to fund that kind of thing. So you would need a steady supply of millionaire sex changers who are prepared to undergo such a drastic and dangerous procedure, for such a minor gain. 

Can't see it ever happening.  

Well, I'm mostly asking if it's possible, not where the funding where come from. Dysphoria is an awful thing to experience.

On 1/7/2022 at 11:46 PM, Peterkin said:

Of course corrective and reconstructive surgery can change the shape of a pelvis - or any other bone. The ilium can be enlarged with grafts, or reduced by trimming; the flare might even be widened or narrowed. None of that would need any special procedure that's not available now. Cosmetically, it's perfectly feasible, either way, to produce a more desired body shape. All the doctor needs is skill and access to good surgical facilities; all the patient needs is lots of time, money and high tolerance for pain.

Functionally, it's more difficult, if not impossible. While it may be possible to enlarge a male pelvis' greater foramen to somewhat resemble a female's, you can't reduce a female's to the proportion of a male one.  Also, if you tried to mess around with the shape and configuration of either, you'd run into serious problems with the socket joint for the femur - i.e., might render the patient unable to walk.

https://onlinesciencenotes.com/differences-between-male-pelvis-and-female-pelvis/

I'm unclear on how this works. Two sections, one surgery at a time, detaching and re-attaching the sacrum? I would be concerned about the security of that seam afterwards - I mean the spinal column and whole upper body depends on it. Might be concerned with re-establishing adequate blood supply, as well, but maybe they've figured that out. Reconstructive surgery after trauma or cancer damage is difficult enough. Undergoing such a risky procedure just to look more masculine or feminine - only slightly more, since nobody's going to replace their legs and shoulders - would be .... I dunno... crazy?

However, there may be hope of doing it better, cheaper.

https://all3dp.com/2/3d-printed-bones-projects/  

There mains, of course, the attachment of ligaments, tendons and muscles - a very complicated series of challenges, not without risk.

Thank you for your contribution, you have no idea how much it means. 

I know for other procedures, algorithms are used to see what people may look like after surgery, could we technically look at each individuals body, say a trans male and female around the same height and use the algorithm to help in taking in missteps when it comes to the procedure? Something that comes to mind is how we've done it for figuring out how ancient animals may have walked or flied.

If I'm correct, don't we replace hips already to an extent? Usually from the joints, which wouldn't need to be touched I would think. 

Regarding the male and female pelvis difference's, I'm just gonna copy and paste it here quickly:

Male is smaller and narrower with heavier and thicker bone while female is bigger and wider with lighter, thinner and denser bone, I don't think this would matter much in appearance or function but may provide some difficult/other precautions to be taken. Male pelvis is designed to support a heavy body with a stronger muscle structure, female serves for the purpose of childbearing and easier delivery, I can't see this baring too much of a risk for individuals who have been on HRT for years or are still very young (not talking 70s more so talking 20s or 30s). Male false (greater) pelvis is deep while the female false (greater) pelvis is shallow. Pubic arch difference doesn't seem to be too much of an issue compared to the acetabulum, since that's where the joins are which could cause complications with walking, but again, if we could use technology to our advantage, maybe it could be plausible? The coccyx seems to be largely irrelevant since I don't even know if it would be as universal as say general pelvis shape. Pelvic brim, outlet and greater sciatic is the general stuff most people know, but I still think it could help to use any technology to advantage. 

 

The 3D printed bones looks extremely promising, but what about using organic material instead? I know talk of growing bone in labs has been preformed, if we can dictate how that bone grows to a degree couldn't we be essentially 'printing' actual bone and tissue? 

As for the ligaments and muscles, that's why I think it would be harder to fully replace the hip, unless you go around of the parts that are attached to muscle and replace the rest, keep it in place with what we use to keep bone in place already, or something newly developed all together. 

I know before you said that it's 'a crazy procedure to appear slightly more masculine or feminine', but is that really true though? Bone structure seems to play a large role in appearance and especially comfort within people who have the misfortune of being born transsexual.

On 1/8/2022 at 12:46 AM, mistermack said:

It would be easier to change the brain, than the body. Whack some testosterone into you, or Oestrogen etc. 

Or "cure" yourself with prayer. It's a flippant thought today, but in the future, it will probably be possible to genuinely change sex inclination. Very controversial as far as ethics go though, but the choice will probably be there one day. 

That's not how it works. It's been tried. Please, only comment you have contribution.

On 1/8/2022 at 1:05 AM, Peterkin said:

What if people don't want to change the way they incline, or feel, or identify themselves? 

Might it not be less trouble to change the way society reacts to masculine-looking women and a feminine-looking men? If we were just more broadly accepting of other people's appearance, maybe nobody would have to change their bodies or their brains or their orientation... 

This is not about that, this is about people who experience the extreme discomfort within their bodies, transgender or transsexuals. Not to mention if this becomes possible it would have a domino effect anyway because we could use these techniques for people with facial injuries and bad deformities.

On 1/8/2022 at 2:03 AM, iNow said:

It’s an anatomy thread, not economics or psychology. The question is whether it’s possible and you’re both hijacking the thread 

Thank you!

On 1/8/2022 at 2:17 AM, TheVat said:

Who are "some people?" I mean, yes, I disagree also, but am curious what would lead someone to see pelvic replacement as feasible.  Any citations would be welcome.  

I've brought this to some other sites, the reason I brought it here is because I wasn't getting much help. 

Are there any ways you can think of that could make this possible?

On 1/8/2022 at 2:55 AM, mistermack said:

Read the last sentence of the OP

Contribution. "It's not possible, end of story, goodbye!" is not what I meant as contribution.

On 1/8/2022 at 3:04 AM, Peterkin said:

My first post was entirely on point. In the second, I my intention was not to hijack; only to respond.

But if it's important to adhere strictly to category, I shall do so henceforward. 

Afterthought: Anatomy, Physiology and Neuroscience could, without too great an effort, include hormone therapies.

I really appreciate your reply, I didn't see the comment you made since I'm only getting back to this thread days later since life is busy. Other than that, do you think using algorithms could help with trying to achieve this? What about softening bone to become more malleable, another idea though is far further away is, the possibility of reversing the effects of puberty and growth, someone has mentioned some kind of cross genetics with that so I just kind of wrote it off. Kind regards, findmeahope.

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, Findmeahope said:

That's not how it works. It's been tried.

That's not how science works. Things that don't work today can work tomorrow. 

Changing inclination has a lot of bad history, because of compulsion and brutish treatment that didn't work, but that doesn't mean that in the future it will never work and be a welcome option to some people. Although it might turn out to be impossible, who knows? 

But you can bet your life that it will be tried again in the future, it might even be happening now. 

1 hour ago, Findmeahope said:

Contribution. "It's not possible, end of story, goodbye!" is not what I meant as contribution.

I absolutely didn't say that. I said that i thought it's unlikely to happen, and gave my reasons, for others to chew up as much as they like. I may well be wrong in that. Discussion doesn't mean just hearing what you want to hear. What's the point of that? Considering the downside is just as important as the upside in real life.

Cosmetic surgery doesn't have a 100% rosy history either. It's been fantastic for some people, but an absolute disaster for others. Trans surgery can be likewise. I have a good friend who had the full works, and is still not sure whether they regret it, or not, after several years. 

[Peterkin]

5 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

If I'm correct, don't we replace hips already to an extent? Usually from the joints, which wouldn't need to be touched I would think. 

What is often - even routinely - replaced is the head of the femur and the lining of its socket. That's done without disturbing the pelvis or changing its shape, so none of the ligaments or muscles have to fit any differently after the surgery. (Still a longish recovery time, though.) But if you tried to do it the other way around, the legs wouldn't fit right. See what I mean?

One relatively simple way I can see of making the hips wider or narrower is adding a graft to or taking a piece out of the pubic bones on either side of the pubic symphysis. If the change is not too drastic, the alignment of the legs could adjust. That's assuming that childbirth is not an issue. That, In conjunction with reshaping the flare of the pelvis, might be all you need. It wouldn't affect function or load-bearing capacity, yet produce a more desirable body shape. Perhaps not an ideal one... But I think you have to consider practicality (risk, discomfort, healing time, long-term function, ease of locomotion) over vanity.   

 

5 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

The 3D printed bones looks extremely promising, but what about using organic material instead? I know talk of growing bone in labs has been preformed, if we can dictate how that bone grows to a degree couldn't we be essentially 'printing' actual bone and tissue? 

I don't know which is better. The plastic version is light, durable, replacable and probably a whole lot less expensive. It's custom designed ahead of time, so you know exactly what the final product is. The greatest advantage is speed. Growing your own is great for repair, and certainly an enormous amount of progress has been made since I harvested graft material back in the last century sometime. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359836820334946

5 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

As for the ligaments and muscles, that's why I think it would be harder to fully replace the hip, unless you go around of the parts that are attached to muscle and replace the rest,

Those attachments can't be got around. They're literally everywhere. All surgery on bone compromises some muscle function. With cosmetic surgery, you have to find the balance: how much risk for how much improvement? But the techniques and materials are advancing all the time: they can do magic now that was unthinkable in 1980. 

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

I know before you said that it's 'a crazy procedure to appear slightly more masculine or feminine', but is that really true though? Bone structure seems to play a large role in appearance and especially comfort within people who have the misfortune of being born transsexual.

Not exactly my position. What I said, in the context, was that undergoing the most drastic version of such surgery for only a slightly improved appearance  would be crazy. I'm perfectly fine with the corrections I did suggest: reshaping the flare at the top, along with reduction or extension of the pubic bones. That would change the appearance of the hips and waist sufficiently, with far less risk, pain and time than replacement of the entire pelvic girdle. 

Weigh and balance!

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

. Not to mention if this becomes possible it would have a domino effect anyway because we could use these techniques for people with facial injuries and bad deformities.

It's actually the other way around. Techniques developed for traumatic damage can now be used for elective surgery. (Which is great, IMO)

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

Other than that, do you think using algorithms could help with trying to achieve this? What about softening bone to become more malleable, another idea though is far further away is, the possibility of reversing the effects of puberty and growth, someone has mentioned some kind of cross genetics with that so I just kind of wrote it off. Kind regards, findmeahope.

I have no idea. That's way beyond my area of imperfect understanding. Sounds pretty cool, though. It would revolutionize plastic surgery. But I'm afraid, with everything else going on in medicine as well the world these days, such esoteric research may be retarded in its progress.

[mistermack]

Wouldn't it be better and less invasive to use silicone implants on the hips, or fillers or a combination of the two? In any case, the size of the hips isn't exactly a deal breaker, when it comes to sex differences. There are plenty of very attractive women with narrow hips, and vice versa. I'm a male, and I have wide hips, but I've never (till now) even thought about it as a sexual marker. It's quite hard even for an expert to say for certain that a skeleton is of a man or woman. They usually say which it is most likely to be. 

[Peterkin]

7 hours ago, mistermack said:

It's quite hard even for an expert to say for certain that a skeleton is of a man or woman.

In a very few cases, mainly of adolescent skeletal remains. There is, as in everything, a scale of one type and a corresponding scale for the other type, with extremes at one end and an area of overlap at the other, where the distinguishing features are so little pronounced that identity is ambiguous. Generally, the differences are quite clear to a forensic pathologist or anthropologist.

However, the differences are not only in the pelvic girdle but also in the long bones, articulations and especially the skull. Most of those can be altered, but not without risk or diminished functionality. While facial reconstruction is now routine in plastic surgery, the brain-pan is still pretty much off limits and changing the lower jaw is difficult and expensive.  

8 hours ago, mistermack said:

Wouldn't it be better and less invasive to use silicone implants on the hips, or fillers or a combination of the two?

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure how silicone would be used. It is certainly done to augment the hips and buttocks of women, just as it is for breasts, and it is certainly easier than changing the bones. Ah, here we are! https://thetranscenter.com/transmen/body-masculinization-procedures/ The same kind of implant is used in feminizing a transgender body, for a fuller, more rounded shape. On female bodies, to become more masculine-looking, they do liposuction to flatten chest and buttocks. None of these procedures change the bones, so, yes, they are far less invasive than orthopedic surgery, but they don't answer the OP. 

[Findmeahope]

On 1/9/2022 at 8:22 PM, mistermack said:

That's not how science works. Things that don't work today can work tomorrow. 

Changing inclination has a lot of bad history, because of compulsion and brutish treatment that didn't work, but that doesn't mean that in the future it will never work and be a welcome option to some people. Although it might turn out to be impossible, who knows? 

But you can bet your life that it will be tried again in the future, it might even be happening now. 

I absolutely didn't say that. I said that i thought it's unlikely to happen, and gave my reasons, for others to chew up as much as they like. I may well be wrong in that. Discussion doesn't mean just hearing what you want to hear. What's the point of that? Considering the downside is just as important as the upside in real life.

Cosmetic surgery doesn't have a 100% rosy history either. It's been fantastic for some people, but an absolute disaster for others. Trans surgery can be likewise. I have a good friend who had the full works, and is still not sure whether they regret it, or not, after several years. 

You said just give them extra testosterone or estrogen in the brain, I was telling you that's not how it works. If doing that doesn't work today, why would doing the same thing work in 100 years?

If people want to find a way to change people's sexual orientation, it would make a lot more sense to be working both ways, changing people to be gay, and changing people to be straight, trying to create a way to "change inclination" (very vague), just comes across as seeking to make everyone straight. 

Never said discussion is what I don't want to hear, I'm saying that what you're talking about doesn't help much in the way of the topic at hand, which is changing bone structure. Even if changing inclination was a possibility, the reasons behind it are almost always shady. The same is to make the world better for all of us, not worse.

On 1/9/2022 at 11:59 PM, Peterkin said:

What is often - even routinely - replaced is the head of the femur and the lining of its socket. That's done without disturbing the pelvis or changing its shape, so none of the ligaments or muscles have to fit any differently after the surgery. (Still a longish recovery time, though.) But if you tried to do it the other way around, the legs wouldn't fit right. See what I mean?

One relatively simple way I can see of making the hips wider or narrower is adding a graft to or taking a piece out of the pubic bones on either side of the pubic symphysis. If the change is not too drastic, the alignment of the legs could adjust. That's assuming that childbirth is not an issue. That, In conjunction with reshaping the flare of the pelvis, might be all you need. It wouldn't affect function or load-bearing capacity, yet produce a more desirable body shape. Perhaps not an ideal one... But I think you have to consider practicality (risk, discomfort, healing time, long-term function, ease of locomotion) over vanity.   

 

I don't know which is better. The plastic version is light, durable, replacable and probably a whole lot less expensive. It's custom designed ahead of time, so you know exactly what the final product is. The greatest advantage is speed. Growing your own is great for repair, and certainly an enormous amount of progress has been made since I harvested graft material back in the last century sometime. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359836820334946

Those attachments can't be got around. They're literally everywhere. All surgery on bone compromises some muscle function. With cosmetic surgery, you have to find the balance: how much risk for how much improvement? But the techniques and materials are advancing all the time: they can do magic now that was unthinkable in 1980. 

Not exactly my position. What I said, in the context, was that undergoing the most drastic version of such surgery for only a slightly improved appearance  would be crazy. I'm perfectly fine with the corrections I did suggest: reshaping the flare at the top, along with reduction or extension of the pubic bones. That would change the appearance of the hips and waist sufficiently, with far less risk, pain and time than replacement of the entire pelvic girdle. 

Weigh and balance!

It's actually the other way around. Techniques developed for traumatic damage can now be used for elective surgery. (Which is great, IMO)

I have no idea. That's way beyond my area of imperfect understanding. Sounds pretty cool, though. It would revolutionize plastic surgery. But I'm afraid, with everything else going on in medicine as well the world these days, such esoteric research may be retarded in its progress.

Ah yes yes I see, the ligaments attached there, it'd just be easier to do it the way we do it now. 

Maybe that would be preferable now in regards to adding a graft or taking out. But I'd still enjoy some further discussion into what would be possible with the ever growing tech we have now. 

Keep in mind we are assuming the individual won't go through a vaginal child birth. I've recently come across something interesting in regards to different pelvis types. Again, the goal isn't to do a change from an anthropoid pelvis all to a very wide gynecoid pelvis, it would have to be within a range that would fit within a what'd we'd see as female for their body. I've looked over the ligaments and muscles, ignoring the bottoms pelvis ligaments for a second, the muscles seem to form an overlay on parts of the pelvis, meaning you could lift it up and see exposed bone, which means technically going around it would have you not having to tamper too much with the connections as here in an example with ligaments. Using this method perhaps reshaping somewhat could be easier if we were able to fill in the gaps with bone grown from the patients cells or from bone taken elsewhere. 

The muscle compromisation is due to the trauma, right? Usually if the patients follow instructions for rehab they gain function fairly quickly. What would help with lessening compromising of muscles would be extra support from stem cells, which we already use but only in very specific procedures (the ethics behind it is still a debate for some reason). 

I understand your concerns for a procedure like this, obviously it shouldn't be even attempted now, but with what is possible with what we have it seems like a reality we may be able to tap into. What you said is definitely true, the reason we have clavicle shortening and lengthening surgery is from techniques used to help those who have injured collar bones. Though, I still think it could work both ways, if we can do this, we can use these techniques for everyone. In fact my other interest along with helping people with this condition are those who have been unfortunate enough to be in accidents or burns, if there's a way to make life better for our fellow human beings, I think we should do it, as it benefits everyone. Sorry for the speech! Got carried away there for a moment.

Just on the vanity note, I think in certain situations we need to be able to separate vanity from a need. Like for example, a woman that is trans may need electrolysis, sure it is for looks, but ultimately not having access to that kind of treatment is detrimental to the person and can be dangerous in many countries. They lack behind social progress as it is, the reason is because many people view them as a mutant mixture of the two sexes, creating disgust. But again, someone that wants to look like those cartoon characters, 100% vanity and I don't see any benefit to looking into surgery to make someone like that unless I see a convincing argument to our that would improve society and the lives of others.

13 hours ago, mistermack said:

Wouldn't it be better and less invasive to use silicone implants on the hips, or fillers or a combination of the two? In any case, the size of the hips isn't exactly a deal breaker, when it comes to sex differences. There are plenty of very attractive women with narrow hips, and vice versa. I'm a male, and I have wide hips, but I've never (till now) even thought about it as a sexual marker. It's quite hard even for an expert to say for certain that a skeleton is of a man or woman. They usually say which it is most likely to be. 

It can be hard, usually they look at the pelvis, but usually they can tell the difference, especially in regards to different ethnicities. I think fillers and implants and fat transfers are great, but ideally I'm just brain storming what's possible with others who have knowledge within medical science.

5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

In a very few cases, mainly of adolescent skeletal remains. There is, as in everything, a scale of one type and a corresponding scale for the other type, with extremes at one end and an area of overlap at the other, where the distinguishing features are so little pronounced that identity is ambiguous. Generally, the differences are quite clear to a forensic pathologist or anthropologist.

However, the differences are not only in the pelvic girdle but also in the long bones, articulations and especially the skull. Most of those can be altered, but not without risk or diminished functionality. While facial reconstruction is now routine in plastic surgery, the brain-pan is still pretty much off limits and changing the lower jaw is difficult and expensive.  

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure how silicone would be used. It is certainly done to augment the hips and buttocks of women, just as it is for breasts, and it is certainly easier than changing the bones. Ah, here we are! https://thetranscenter.com/transmen/body-masculinization-procedures/ The same kind of implant is used in feminizing a transgender body, for a fuller, more rounded shape. On female bodies, to become more masculine-looking, they do liposuction to flatten chest and buttocks. None of these procedures change the bones, so, yes, they are far less invasive than orthopedic surgery, but they don't answer the OP. 

I think the hardest part is that we haven't got full access to the healing capacity yet to do bone altering surgeries. And before you say anything, yes not too drastic obviously, we aren't 1000 years into the future yet, talking enough to make a difference! I think it would help with algorithms as well, which they use in medical centers for implants and fat transfers to see what the body will/should look like.

 

Forgot to add this in, but if we could find a way to make bone malleable and soft for a period of time, that could help drastically. There's also the reversing of the chemical reactions a sex hormone has done, though I'm not entirely versed on how that will work. Was talking to someone who was specializing in biochemical science and they said from the biochemical standpoint, ever reaction is reversible. "It comes down to kenetics, catalysts, and overall energy in the system. Though metabolic pathways can be extremely complicated". Just thought I'd add that in there. I know we can bend bones with vinegar, not sure on the effects that would have on bone within a living person though. Still doing research into all of this. 

[Peterkin]

4 minutes ago, Findmeahope said:

Keep in mind we are assuming the individual won't go through a vaginal child birth.

I had assumed that from the start. We're talking about purely cosmetic, rather than functional changes. Fair enough - and a considerable alteration can be done now. How easy or difficult it is medically depends to a large extent on what the starting point is and what the aim is. Turning a male football player into a female fashion model is a formidable challenge, while turning a wimpy male stockbroker into a self-assured female stockbroker wouldn't be that hard, either surgically or psychologically. 

As you say, emergent technology will make alterations more accessible and less arduous.

Still, my main concern is not with technique, which is already quite advanced, but with the patient's endurance. Every one of these procedures is lengthy and painful and requires a long recovery time. If you're going to have a new life as the person you've always felt you should be, I don't think you want to spend the best years of it in traction, isolation and physiotherapy. I would very strongly urge every prospective patient to do a cost-benefit analysis, and decide in very practical terms how much they actually need to change. There is a vast range and variety of both male and female body types: it shouldn't be that hard to find the right formula to go from the undesired to the desired type with a minimum of structural damage.

21 minutes ago, Findmeahope said:

Forgot to add this in, but if we could find a way to make bone malleable and soft for a period of time, that could help drastically.

You've mentioned that before. I don't know what will become possible, but I hope that, unless our society changes considerably in the meantime, this idea remains science fiction. Not because of what such technology would do for people who want a second chance to grow up the way they think nature should have let them grow up - they have all my sympathy. But for all the other people who would put that same capability to nefarious uses.  All new technology has a dark side!

[mistermack]

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

If people want to find a way to change people's sexual orientation, it would make a lot more sense to be working both ways, changing people to be gay, and changing people to be straight, trying to create a way to "change inclination" (very vague), just comes across as seeking to make everyone straight. 

But what is a sex change operation, if it's not making gay people straight? You start with a man who is attracted to men, and the objective is to end up after the operation as a woman who is attracted to men. The objective is the same, to end up as a straight person. 

I made it clear that giving hormones doesn't work at the moment, I said it was a flippant thought, but whether there will be techniques to change sexual orientation in the future is a different story. Who thought fifty years ago that it would be possible to give a man a pig's heart? If there's a demand for it, they will certainly try it. It has a horrible history, because of the compulsion element, and the pretty awful things they tried. But that applies to most other procedures in medicine too. But if that's what some people genuinely want, and it brings them happiness, then for them it would be a good thing. 

Just because it would not be for you, doesn't mean that it should be denied to others if that's what they really want.

[Findmeahope]

On 1/13/2022 at 2:28 PM, Peterkin said:

I had assumed that from the start. We're talking about purely cosmetic, rather than functional changes. Fair enough - and a considerable alteration can be done now. How easy or difficult it is medically depends to a large extent on what the starting point is and what the aim is. Turning a male football player into a female fashion model is a formidable challenge, while turning a wimpy male stockbroker into a self-assured female stockbroker wouldn't be that hard, either surgically or psychologically. 

As you say, emergent technology will make alterations more accessible and less arduous.

Still, my main concern is not with technique, which is already quite advanced, but with the patient's endurance. Every one of these procedures is lengthy and painful and requires a long recovery time. If you're going to have a new life as the person you've always felt you should be, I don't think you want to spend the best years of it in traction, isolation and physiotherapy. I would very strongly urge every prospective patient to do a cost-benefit analysis, and decide in very practical terms how much they actually need to change. There is a vast range and variety of both male and female body types: it shouldn't be that hard to find the right formula to go from the undesired to the desired type with a minimum of structural damage.

You've mentioned that before. I don't know what will become possible, but I hope that, unless our society changes considerably in the meantime, this idea remains science fiction. Not because of what such technology would do for people who want a second chance to grow up the way they think nature should have let them grow up - they have all my sympathy. But for all the other people who would put that same capability to nefarious uses.  All new technology has a dark side!

I am really sorry for late reply! I’ve had such a busy week!! It’s hard for me to respond to the entire quote at once so I’m going to take parts and put them in “” and then respond below.
 

“I had assumed that from the start. We're talking about purely cosmetic, rather than functional changes. Fair enough - and a considerable alteration can be done now. How easy or difficult it is medically depends to a large extent on what the starting point is and what the aim is. Turning a male football player into a female fashion model is a formidable challenge, while turning a wimpy male stockbroker into a self-assured female stockbroker wouldn't be that hard, either surgically or psychologically. “

Like I said, no turning football players that are 6’4 into 5’5 fashion models, I don’t see this as purely cosmetic, it’s a different kind of cosmetic that’s needed for trans people, that’s the difference. Depending on how much the person has been affected by testosterone or estrogen, it shouldn’t be too difficult. It’s a matter of weighing out the bone structure. 

 

“As you say, emergent technology will make alterations more accessible and less arduous.”

I hope so!

“Still, my main concern is not with technique, which is already quite advanced, but with the patient's endurance. Every one of these procedures is lengthy and painful and requires a long recovery time. If you're going to have a new life as the person you've always felt you should be, I don't think you want to spend the best years of it in traction, isolation and physiotherapy.”

I just don’t know if it would be near as bad as you suggest, sure, physio trips, sure, but I don’t think a surgery like this would be released to the public if these were the consequences, we need a way of speeding recovery. Which is where stem cells come in. 

“I would very strongly urge every prospective patient to do a cost-benefit analysis, and decide in very practical terms how much they actually need to change. There is a vast range and variety of both male and female body types: it shouldn't be that hard to find the right formula to go from the undesired to the desired type with a minimum of structural damage.”

That’s true, but the point is to get the person as in line with that sex as possible, if we can do it, I think we should do what we can to do it.

“You've mentioned that before. I don't know what will become possible, but I hope that, unless our society changes considerably in the meantime, this idea remains science fiction. Not because of what such technology would do for people who want a second chance to grow up the way they think nature should have let them grow up - they have all my sympathy. But for all the other people who would put that same capability to nefarious uses.  All new technology has a dark side!”

I understand. I just don’t think nefarious people should prevent the surgery for people that need it. I’m gonna tell you something that a lot of people usually don’t take into consideration. Trans people lag behind significantly compared to the rest of society and sexual minorities, this is due to a few reasons, first is stigma, second is the biggest one, passing. Trans people that don’t pass will struggle through life, relationships, sex, finding jobs, it becomes extremely difficult and sometimes impossible, in fact it’s dangerous. It’s even worse for trans people that are gay. Gay men particularly are very hostile towards trans men as it is. Being able to pass, is a must for this group, if we can do it, we should do it. I know you don’t want to see people suffer, you even said it, the way to do it is to make sure it’s done properly, every good thing is hijacked eventually, look at breast augmentations, but it shouldn’t stop us from trying to do what we can to help one another. Being able to get this kind of thing working along with the stem cells, would create a domino effect like you said happens with surgeries for injuries, just this time it would come from a surgery for a different kind of issue. Hope this made sense!

On 1/13/2022 at 8:39 PM, mistermack said:

But what is a sex change operation, if it's not making gay people straight? You start with a man who is attracted to men, and the objective is to end up after the operation as a woman who is attracted to men. The objective is the same, to end up as a straight person. 

I made it clear that giving hormones doesn't work at the moment, I said it was a flippant thought, but whether there will be techniques to change sexual orientation in the future is a different story. Who thought fifty years ago that it would be possible to give a man a pig's heart? If there's a demand for it, they will certainly try it. It has a horrible history, because of the compulsion element, and the pretty awful things they tried. But that applies to most other procedures in medicine too. But if that's what some people genuinely want, and it brings them happiness, then for them it would be a good thing. 

Just because it would not be for you, doesn't mean that it should be denied to others if that's what they really want.

A sex change isn’t changing someone’s sexuality though, even if they do become a woman or a man attracted to the opposite sex, and what about those who are attracted to the same sex? What you’re saying is to turn people straight, cool, then you should have no problem turning people gay then, I know a lot of women that wish they were lesbian, I know for a fact people would like to try that out.

My main concern is that you spoke of only turning the said people straight, in which case I’m wondering if you’d want the same for people who want to be gay. If they can do it, I have no objection. It just shouldn’t be forced. And at that point I’d expect there not to be a societal expectation to wipe out lgbt people from existence.

exactly! I agree, no one thought a pigs heart could work for us, just like no one thinks what I’m talking about will be done, but I know it will, I’m just speculating how so it could be. If we can do good, we should.

[mistermack]

47 minutes ago, Findmeahope said:

My main concern is that you spoke of only turning the said people straight, in which case I’m wondering if you’d want the same for people who want to be gay.

Why would you wonder what I would want? If that was the case, I would say so. The only thing I want is for people to be happy, it's up to them how they go for it. In fact, logically speaking, if it ever did become possible to change sexual orientation, I would imagine that a lot of people would opt to become bisexual. After all, that gives you double the choice. (assuming you could attract both sexes)

I must admit, I find the concept of changing what you want rather weird. It's probably worth it's own thread.

[Peterkin]

15 minutes ago, Findmeahope said:

That’s true, but the point is to get the person as in line with that sex as possible, if we can do it, I think we should do what we can to do it.

It's being done every day.  Unhappily, there is nothing I know of, so far, to speed bone healing. You're still looking at 6-8 weeks of healing after each surgical procedure. So, if the change can be affected with a minimum of interference with bone structure, and preferential lipo- or silicone treatments, hormone and exercise therapies, I would seriously consider those alternatives, or some combination.

The even worse news is prices. In some provinces and states, some procedures are covered by public health insurance, but you have to study up on the fees and co-pay options before you decide on a regimen. The prices are truly daunting! 

I would think three or four times, and consider all the other options, before jumping into pelvic reconstruction.

The much better news is that health-care community takes this issue seriously and there is a ton of information as well as support.  Here is a very mainstream overview of what's available. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21526-gender-affirmation-confirmation-or-sex-reassignment-surgery. The link I gave you earlier is advertising a more extensive and expensive range of services.

 

22 minutes ago, Findmeahope said:

Trans people lag behind significantly compared to the rest of society and sexual minorities, this is due to a few reasons, first is stigma, second is the biggest one, passing.

I do get that. You can't be on discussion boards without encountering that granite wall of prejudice. Obviously, part of the solution is altering public perception - but that takes time, co-operation and media attention, and you can't wait another century for acceptance.

 

37 minutes ago, Findmeahope said:

Gay men particularly are very hostile towards trans men as it is.

I wonder why. How's it any skin off their... Do they feel you're deserting to the enemy - or what? Anyway, that's a whole 'nother can of Spaghetti-O's. 

Yes, future technology, including stem cell remodelling, will make it much easier. But people who are desperately unhappy right now, that's little consolation. Such people need to access whatever help is at hand where they live.... plus perhaps consider the option of relocating to some place where they're more readily accepted or better served. But that's another avenue closed by this forever pandemic. 

 

 

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

I must admit, I find the concept of changing what you want rather weird.

I changed from wanting to smoke a cigarette to NOT wanting to smoke a cigarette by changing the appeal in my mind, but I doubt that would work with something as complex as sexuality. 

[Peterkin]

I changed wanting to smoke to wanting to not smoke, and I don't smoke anymore...

but still sometimes dream about lighting a cigarette, because, one layer down, I never really stopped wanting to smoke. Some desires may disappear from the surface, without really going away.

[mistermack]

20 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I changed from wanting to smoke a cigarette to NOT wanting to smoke a cigarette by changing the appeal in my mind, but I doubt that would work with something as complex as sexuality.

I'm probably in the same boat, but it feels a bit different to me. I think that the main wanting to smoke is the addiction part of nicotine. I haven't smoked for years so I'm not craving a smoke. But I still know that if I did smoke (a cigar in my case) I would enjoy it. I can't class that as wanting a cigar. But I also can't class it as NOT wanting one. 

I would enjoy a cigar, but I 'want' to avoid the health downside even more. So I haven't changed the appeal in my mind, I've decided to favour one "want" over another, and helping willpower along is the fact that the immediate craving caused by regular smoking has gone, due to time elapsed.

[Findmeahope]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:51 PM, mistermack said:

Why would you wonder what I would want? If that was the case, I would say so. The only thing I want is for people to be happy, it's up to them how they go for it. In fact, logically speaking, if it ever did become possible to change sexual orientation, I would imagine that a lot of people would opt to become bisexual. After all, that gives you double the choice. (assuming you could attract both sexes)

I must admit, I find the concept of changing what you want rather weird. It's probably worth it's own thread.

I grew up in a family with neo nazi's, forgive me as I become suspicious sometimes.

Though I agree it probably be nice to change sexualities. We can work on that when the technology gets there, right now I'd prefer to focus on something like this for this thread, I'll probably make another thread for changing sexuality tbh.

On 1/24/2022 at 11:57 PM, Peterkin said:

It's being done every day.  Unhappily, there is nothing I know of, so far, to speed bone healing. You're still looking at 6-8 weeks of healing after each surgical procedure. So, if the change can be affected with a minimum of interference with bone structure, and preferential lipo- or silicone treatments, hormone and exercise therapies, I would seriously consider those alternatives, or some combination.

The even worse news is prices. In some provinces and states, some procedures are covered by public health insurance, but you have to study up on the fees and co-pay options before you decide on a regimen. The prices are truly daunting! 

I would think three or four times, and consider all the other options, before jumping into pelvic reconstruction.

The much better news is that health-care community takes this issue seriously and there is a ton of information as well as support.  Here is a very mainstream overview of what's available. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21526-gender-affirmation-confirmation-or-sex-reassignment-surgery. The link I gave you earlier is advertising a more extensive and expensive range of services.

 

I do get that. You can't be on discussion boards without encountering that granite wall of prejudice. Obviously, part of the solution is altering public perception - but that takes time, co-operation and media attention, and you can't wait another century for acceptance.

 

I wonder why. How's it any skin off their... Do they feel you're deserting to the enemy - or what? Anyway, that's a whole 'nother can of Spaghetti-O's. 

Yes, future technology, including stem cell remodelling, will make it much easier. But people who are desperately unhappy right now, that's little consolation. Such people need to access whatever help is at hand where they live.... plus perhaps consider the option of relocating to some place where they're more readily accepted or better served. But that's another avenue closed by this forever pandemic. 

 

 

I suck at the quote system so I'm just gonna reply to the ones with "" around them like last time.

"It's being done every day.  Unhappily, there is nothing I know of, so far, to speed bone healing. You're still looking at 6-8 weeks of healing after each surgical procedure. So, if the change can be affected with a minimum of interference with bone structure, and preferential lipo- or silicone treatments, hormone and exercise therapies, I would seriously consider those alternatives, or some combination."

Stem cells, we just don't have enough research, obvious reasons. Governments have barred much access to stem cell research or have at least made it extremely difficult to study.

"The even worse news is prices. In some provinces and states, some procedures are covered by public health insurance, but you have to study up on the fees and co-pay options before you decide on a regimen. The prices are truly daunting! "

I just don't think this is something that should prevent research, prices are extremely high, this is an entirely different problem that's to do with the system. In the US, if you need treatment, chances are you just die. It's so expensive, this is America's problem, I doubt it'll be solved anytime soon though, they do love seeing their own die and then blaming it on the boogieman after all.

"I would think three or four times, and consider all the other options, before jumping into pelvic reconstruction.

The much better news is that health-care community takes this issue seriously and there is a ton of information as well as support.  Here is a very mainstream overview of what's available. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21526-gender-affirmation-confirmation-or-sex-reassignment-surgery. The link I gave you earlier is advertising a more extensive and expensive range of services."

I understand, for now obviously it hasn't been looked into, but with the appropriate tools, it should be possible with nowhere near the danger that it would pose at the moment with no trials or research. Doing research within healing possibilities, stem cells is probably the way to go. And this as well. To name a few anyway.

 

"I do get that. You can't be on discussion boards without encountering that granite wall of prejudice. Obviously, part of the solution is altering public perception - but that takes time, co-operation and media attention, and you can't wait another century for acceptance."

It is definitely hard. But even with acceptance, having the body match as much as possible is beneficial overall all round.

"I wonder why. How's it any skin off their... Do they feel you're deserting to the enemy - or what? Anyway, that's a whole 'nother can of Spaghetti-O's. "

I don't understand? Do you mean penis'? I'm sorry I am unfamiliar with your use of words.

"Yes, future technology, including stem cell remodelling, will make it much easier. But people who are desperately unhappy right now, that's little consolation. Such people need to access whatever help is at hand where they live.... plus perhaps consider the option of relocating to some place where they're more readily accepted or better served. But that's another avenue closed by this forever pandemic. "

For sure, but in the meantime there's no harm in killing multiple birds with one stone though.

On 1/25/2022 at 2:51 AM, Phi for All said:

I changed from wanting to smoke a cigarette to NOT wanting to smoke a cigarette by changing the appeal in my mind, but I doubt that would work with something as complex as sexuality. 

Maybe in 500 years we could do it, I don't know though anytime soon. I think we'll be transplanting brains to bodies before we get to that point.

On 1/25/2022 at 3:34 AM, Peterkin said:

I changed wanting to smoke to wanting to not smoke, and I don't smoke anymore...

but still sometimes dream about lighting a cigarette, because, one layer down, I never really stopped wanting to smoke. Some desires may disappear from the surface, without really going away.

Human's really are strange, I guess that's what makes us beautiful though.

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

I just don't think this is something that should prevent research, prices are extremely high, this is an entirely different problem that's to do with the system.

Yes and no. On one hand, the price of procedures reflects the cost of research plus the cost of training the practitioners and furnishing the facilities, so every breakthrough has to bring commensurate returns - and be predicted to bring worthwhile financial returns before the people who control money invest in it. Once a procedure is established and has a steady market, the cost of tools and training deceases, competition increases; in theory, that should bring the price down. Doesn't seem to apply in many areas of medicine, which remains highly specialized by field. I don't know what research is going on, or how the pandemic situation has retarded its progress. Really, the future of bone surgery is speculative. I'm simply not informed enough to address that question. 

2 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

Governments have barred much access to stem cell research or have at least made it extremely difficult to study.

"***" I suppose they have their reasons, legal, moral and religious. Medical research needs to be controlled, because Frankensteins do exist.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2726839/ Technically, I have no quibble with the advancements you're suggesting.

2 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

But even with acceptance, having the body match as much as possible is beneficial overall all round.

For sure! Within reason. I would just caution you - and everyone who wants to change their physical appearance for whatever reason - about the risk of too deep an emotional investment in body-image. But that's not about anatomy; it's about psychology.

 

2 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

"I wonder why. How's it any skin off their... Do they feel you're deserting to the enemy - or what? Anyway, that's a whole 'nother can of Spaghetti-O's. "

I don't understand?

It was an idle aside - i.e. off topic; thus' another can' - a speculation on the very complex question (thus 'can of worms', facetiously euphemized) of what motivates resentment from people who have no stake in the matter; nothing to lose (metaphorical slang idiom: 'skin off nose or ass').  Nothing to do with actual body parts. Sorry! I get a little carried away with language sometimes. 

"***" Quote option is really clever on this board. Highlight the passage you want to quote, it turns blue, wait for prompt: 'quote selection' (might not happen on first try) hit the button. The new quote pops into your reply box, exactly where the cursor was. Make sure there is clear space between it and any text below, or the quote may appear in the middle of your own sentence. (This, too, is off topic - there is a section for help with technical issues.)