Would it be possible to remodel bones?

[mistermack]

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I would just caution you - and everyone who wants to change their physical appearance for whatever reason - about the risk of too deep an emotional investment in body-image. But that's not about anatomy; it's about psychology.

Which is another way of saying it's about mental health. And unfortunately, it's all grey areas. Obsessiveness merges seamlessly into mental illness, with no clear dividing line to point to. You just have people who are a bit over the top at one end, and people who are clearly deluded at the other. A bit like dieting. For some people, it's a good thing and brings them what they want. At the other end of the scale are people who starve themselves to death while not even realising or admitting that they have a problem. 

[Peterkin]

Just now, mistermack said:

Which is another way of saying it's about mental health.

In my case, it was another way of saying I don't want to hijack the thread.

2 minutes ago, mistermack said:

bsessiveness merges seamlessly into mental illness, with no clear dividing line to point to.

No, it wasn't about that. It was a simple caution against focusing on the details of a desired physical type, rather than individuality. There is more to engage with in a slightly homely woman who is interested and friendly than a supermodel who keeps looking at her own reflection. People who are born into the right sort of body also have, more often than not, to make peace with their own physical imperfections. People who have to make a superhuman effort to achieve the type of body they should have been born into are at greater risk of diluting their internal identity in the process. It's important to find the point at which you've made enough change to your appearance and retained enough of your original personality.

[mistermack]

11 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

It's important to find the point at which you've made enough change to your appearance and retained enough of your original personality.

The location of that point is a matter of opinion though. Balanced and rational people will plact that point differently to obsessive or even mentally ill people. And they will all think that they have got it right. Take Michael Jackson for example. Where did he fit in on the rationality scale? 

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

The location of that point is a matter of opinion though. Balanced and rational people will plact that point differently to obsessive or even mentally ill people. And they will all think that they have got it right. Take Michael Jackson for example. Where did he fit in on the rationality scale? 

That may all be so and worth discussing, but it's a much bigger discussion than the scope of this thread, and belongs in a different category. 

[mistermack]

I don't think you can discuss such drastic cosmetic surgery properly, without the psychological element. 

Any responsible doctor would go deeply into that, before operating. ( even in America, but you can always find a money oriented surgeon somewhere )

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

I don't think you can discuss such drastic cosmetic surgery properly, without the psychological element. 

Certainly, when anyone contemplates undergoing a cosmetic procedure, some counselling is advisable; in the case of major remodelling, extensive consultation with several specialists is the norm. That's why I mentioned the psychological aspect of the matter, but didn't want to get sidetracked into its intricacies in a thread about the technical feasibility of bone reconstruction in the Anatomy forum. 

It's not always easy to find the right mix of factual objectivity and concern for another's sensibilities. 

[Findmeahope]

On 1/29/2022 at 12:44 AM, Peterkin said:

Yes and no. On one hand, the price of procedures reflects the cost of research plus the cost of training the practitioners and furnishing the facilities, so every breakthrough has to bring commensurate returns - and be predicted to bring worthwhile financial returns before the people who control money invest in it. Once a procedure is established and has a steady market, the cost of tools and training deceases, competition increases; in theory, that should bring the price down. Doesn't seem to apply in many areas of medicine, which remains highly specialized by field. I don't know what research is going on, or how the pandemic situation has retarded its progress. Really, the future of bone surgery is speculative. I'm simply not informed enough to address that question. 

Not necessarily, as long as overall they do. All new procedures start off expensive, this is the nature of the economic system. An example of this is that many to most components within the smart phone were made by the government and funded by the government for university research, this only brought returns tens of years later. I'm actually currently doing economics and psychology at school which is why I can only really reply on weekends so I apologize for the response time. After that next year I'm going to do medical science as well as this is also an area I am passionate about.

 

Also, I thought this would be interesting to show you. This is what we are capable of, amazing things to help people, we should absolutely do it. 

 

Oh, next reply I'll send you some threads I found on this topic, I think it might be of some interesting substance so stay tuned!

On 1/29/2022 at 12:44 AM, Peterkin said:

"***" I suppose they have their reasons, legal, moral and religious. Medical research needs to be controlled, because Frankensteins do exist.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2726839/ Technically, I have no quibble with the advancements you're suggesting.

Being on a science forum I hope you are all of the opinion that religious reasons to prevent human progress are empty arguments coming from a place of irrational emotion. The moral positions people hold on getting stem cells from embryos with peoples consent is similar to that of "anti-choice" people, thus they care about life until it is born, then as we can see with American conservatives, for all they care that baby can be born into a poor household and get abused. It's easier to advocate for a person who can't defend themselves and call you out on bullshit, which is what these "moral" and "religious" people usually do. Another words, we should do what's right, not what we think the little man in the sky says we should do. I do agree that Frankensteins exist, however this isn't really an argument against stem cells and organs, more so against anarcho-type systems where there is no regulation of what people can do. It's like advocating for a society without laws.

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For sure! Within reason. I would just caution you - and everyone who wants to change their physical appearance for whatever reason - about the risk of too deep an emotional investment in body-image. But that's not about anatomy; it's about psychology.

Looking into the studies I can assure you most trans people undergo intense psycho therapy before surgeries and even GRS, which is far more "life changing" than what I am proposing. However I do get where you are coming from, as I think everyone is entitled to see a psychologist, especially in these situations. 

Quote

 

It was an idle aside - i.e. off topic; thus' another can' - a speculation on the very complex question (thus 'can of worms', facetiously euphemized) of what motivates resentment from people who have no stake in the matter; nothing to lose (metaphorical slang idiom: 'skin off nose or ass').  Nothing to do with actual body parts. Sorry! I get a little carried away with language sometimes. 

"***" Quote option is really clever on this board. Highlight the passage you want to quote, it turns blue, wait for prompt: 'quote selection' (might not happen on first try) hit the button. The new quote pops into your reply box, exactly where the cursor was. Make sure there is clear space between it and any text below, or the quote may appear in the middle of your own sentence. (This, too, is off topic - there is a section for help with technical issues.)  

 

Oh it's okay, nevermind then  I just am using the quote thingy at the top from now on. 

On 2/1/2022 at 1:43 AM, mistermack said:

I don't think you can discuss such drastic cosmetic surgery properly, without the psychological element. 

Any responsible doctor would go deeply into that, before operating. ( even in America, but you can always find a money oriented surgeon somewhere )

I've done research into this so I wouldn't be proposing it if I thought it wouldn't be beneficial. GRS is arguably far more intense than pelvic remodeling, yet vast majority of people that get it are actually okay with it. The problem arises when the medical techniques aren't honed. This is why we need more research into things that concern our fellow human beings, as this benefits everyone. 

[Peterkin]

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

This is what we are capable of, amazing things to help people, we should absolutely do it. 

Amazing, indeed!

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

An example of this is that many to most components within the smart phone were made by the government and funded by the government for university research, this only brought returns tens of years later.

But it became a mass market item. Surgery that benefits 0.6% of the people will never be cheap. Whichever technique also benefits accident victims and soldiers injured in combat becomes that much more accessible. Nevertheless, medicine is, to a large extent, monopolistic - somewhat immune to market pressures.

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

Being on a science forum I hope you are all of the opinion that religious reasons to prevent human progress are empty arguments coming from a place of irrational emotion.

I wouldn't put it quite that way. I don't approve of religious conviction driving legislation, but I have to acknowledge its presence - which is likely not only to continue for some time yet, but even to inflict some, or much backlash damage on socially progressive lawmaking and enforcement. Note the steamrolling of reproductive freedoms in the US and elsewhere. As well, there is a retrogressive element that has gained alarming momentum under the Trump regime and I predict a continued rise in violence against minority populations of every kind: the Peterson brigades are loose on all the world. Legislative assemblies quake before them and will certainly cave to some of their demands. Again, that's a topic only tangentially related to this one. 

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

This is why we need more research into things that concern our fellow human beings, as this benefits everyone. 

No argument from me! Only, medical science is not in a very strong position right now. So much the research talent, facilities, materials and budget have been consumed by Covid. Health-care workers are stressed-out, exhausted, beleaguered and fed up. Many have died, many more have quit. Life-saving, limb-saving surgeries have been delayed or shelved; clearing up the back-log is going to take a long time -- a long time, that is, from whenever it can even start.  

Plague, pestilence and war make any future progress precarious. 

[Findmeahope]

On 2/7/2022 at 12:41 AM, Peterkin said:

Amazing, indeed!

But it became a mass market item. Surgery that benefits 0.6% of the people will never be cheap. Whichever technique also benefits accident victims and soldiers injured in combat becomes that much more accessible. Nevertheless, medicine is, to a large extent, monopolistic - somewhat immune to market pressures.

I wouldn't put it quite that way. I don't approve of religious conviction driving legislation, but I have to acknowledge its presence - which is likely not only to continue for some time yet, but even to inflict some, or much backlash damage on socially progressive lawmaking and enforcement. Note the steamrolling of reproductive freedoms in the US and elsewhere. As well, there is a retrogressive element that has gained alarming momentum under the Trump regime and I predict a continued rise in violence against minority populations of every kind: the Peterson brigades are loose on all the world. Legislative assemblies quake before them and will certainly cave to some of their demands. Again, that's a topic only tangentially related to this one. 

No argument from me! Only, medical science is not in a very strong position right now. So much the research talent, facilities, materials and budget have been consumed by Covid. Health-care workers are stressed-out, exhausted, beleaguered and fed up. Many have died, many more have quit. Life-saving, limb-saving surgeries have been delayed or shelved; clearing up the back-log is going to take a long time -- a long time, that is, from whenever it can even start.  

Plague, pestilence and war make any future progress precarious. 

I think there's some reason to experiment with something like this, not because it will have a large market, I think its market size will increase because many women are unhappy with their hip size, so the safer it becomes the more people will want it done. I think being able to do something like this would be revolutionary on it's own, and open up possibilities for people who have injuries, etc. I think the domino effect works both ways as we discussed before.

 

Yeah, I really don't like that religion has dictated so much of what's possible. I actually want to try get in contact with the people who were involved in that procedure I sent you, the growing Vagina's in labs one. You wouldn't know anyway one might go about that, would you? I'm super interested to why this hasn't been attempted since and if so, why it hasn't been reported on.

I have little hope for the USA, which is why places like Sweden and other progressed countries probably need to start kicking it up a notch in terms of medical quality and innovations, even if it means going to China to do that.

 

I do think that since COVID there have been a lot of stagnation, however, I think the long term damages from COVID could be helped significantly through stem cell research, which as I said would come from such a breakthrough such as a remodeling a pelvis.  

I have attached some images, the pelvis doesn't seem to have such a drastic difference in terms of being sexed, so it would appear it would be straight forward to use bone lengthening methods to achieve this under the layers of muscles directly on the bone, however, there's one issue that makes this hard, ligaments. Ironically, there might actually be a way to achieve this a natural way; https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-cosmetic-surgeons-expand-the-pelvic-bone-on-MtF-transgender-people-as-an-alternative-to-silicone-implants

If you take a read through some of the replies to this question, Kevin Stone makes a interesting point that I actually knew before , but not to this extent:

"

It probably means that hormones play a far greater role in pelvic geometry than they are given credit for. The most likely hormone to target is relaxin. Laxity in connective tissues between the components of the pelvis apparently plays a far greater role than is generally acknowledged. If that’s true, then it is also likely true that, even in the absence of relaxin supplementation to approach feminine levels, stretches that loosen those connective tissues may help.

Another biomechanical difference between men and women that is often overlooked is the connective tissue web at the pelvic inlet (spanning the pubis and ischium) is markedly different, given that it is continuous in the male while it is discontinuous in the female, where the vaginal introitus compromises its continuity. This means that there would be less structural integrity to the female pelvic inlet, allowing it to open and biomechanically resulting in a wider flare to the ilia.

If all of this is true, then the addition of relaxin to the hormonal regimen, addition of stretches to loosen pelvic joints, and the increased laxity afforded by sectioning of the pelvic inlet fascia in order to create a vaginal canal all have the potential to somewhat modify a natal male pelvis, even well beyond the age of 25, toward the classic female pelvic geometry. Again, recent studies now show pelvic geometry changing throughout life and doing so markedly post-menopause.

"

Even with the bone plates fusing, there's a change in the geometry of the pelvis. Another idea would be making it so the body remodels itself. Now this is obviously 200 years away but an interesting concept considering we already use stem cells naturally to replace our bones, so it could be possible if we figured out the instructions, we could modify it so that the body modifies it's bone (and organ if you wanna go far enough) structure.

I'm weary of cutting through ligaments, since blood supply isn't great, but then again, if we can grow that tissue in a lab we bypass this issue once again, easily.

Love to hear your thoughts, this is the first time I've had such proactive discussion around this, took me a while to find these forums.

[Peterkin]

7 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

I actually want to try get in contact with the people who were involved in that procedure I sent you, the growing Vagina's in labs one. You wouldn't know anyway one might go about that, would you?

I can think of reasons they would want to be anonymous, and I'm sure their physicians protect their identities. You could look on social media or special-audience blogs, if any of the patients discuss their experience, but I wouldn't know how to start. 

 

7 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

I have little hope for the USA, which is why places like Sweden and other progressed countries probably need to start kicking it up a notch in terms of medical quality and innovations, even if it means going to China to do that.

China is not, AFAIK, progressive in this area.

7 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

I have attached some images, the pelvis doesn't seem to have such a drastic difference in terms of being sexed, so it would appear it would be straight forward to use bone lengthening methods to achieve this under the layers of muscles directly on the bone, however, there's one issue that makes this hard, ligaments.

That's what I said early on. Assuming that reproduction is not at issue. Though, someday..... who knows?

[Findmeahope]

On 2/12/2022 at 1:46 AM, Peterkin said:

I can think of reasons they would want to be anonymous, and I'm sure their physicians protect their identities. You could look on social media or special-audience blogs, if any of the patients discuss their experience, but I wouldn't know how to start. 

 

China is not, AFAIK, progressive in this area.

That's what I said early on. Assuming that reproduction is not at issue. Though, someday..... who knows?

Yeah China is not progressive at all. Maybe they could be convinced anyhow. 
 

I’ve been doing more studying recently and maybe it could be more possible with the combination of titanium or other safe material to hold the bones together while they heal. I don’t think it’s really that bad, calculations just need to be precise. Is there a material that binds with bone?

[Peterkin]

8 minutes ago, Findmeahope said:

Is there a material that binds with bone?

Bone, I think. You can use grafts, either from the patient or from a donor, as a framework for new growth, and new cells will fill in the gap to bind them. The titanium mesh and artificial, 3D printed bone serve the same purpose: provide a hard framework.

30 minutes ago, Findmeahope said:

I don’t think it’s really that bad, calculations just need to be precise.

They can be very precise. Amazing work is already being done. For the patient, though, it's still no cakewalk.

 

[Findmeahope]

On 2/28/2022 at 1:24 PM, Peterkin said:

Bone, I think. You can use grafts, either from the patient or from a donor, as a framework for new growth, and new cells will fill in the gap to bind them. The titanium mesh and artificial, 3D printed bone serve the same purpose: provide a hard framework.

They can be very precise. Amazing work is already being done. For the patient, though, it's still no cakewalk.

 

I see, if donor bone is used wouldn’t the patient need to be on immune suppressants? Or would the body eventually replace the bone with its own cells? 
 

How long does the 3D printed bone last? I know titanium doesn’t last over a decade if I recall. 
 

im actually currently cooking something up, I think this’ll be able to show you how it could be done, so stay tuned!!

[Peterkin]

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

I see, if donor bone is used wouldn’t the patient need to be on immune suppressants

No, actually. Bone is the exception. When it's harvested, all soft tissue, living cells, blood, marrow, everything another immune system would reject is removed. When it's implanted, it's just the calcified parts that are used. 

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Allograft bone transplant involves bone that has no living cells so that the risk of rejection is minimal as opposed to organ transplants, in which living cells are present. Since the transplanted bone doesn’t contain living marrow, there is no need to match blood types between the donor and the recipient.https://www.healthline.com/health/bone-graft

Plastic bone lasts longer, double or more the lifespan of titanium. Ideally, however, the implant should provide a scaffolding to guide the patient's own bone, which will replace it in time.

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

im actually currently cooking something up,

  Intriguing! But is it advisable?

[Findmeahope]

On 3/12/2022 at 11:14 PM, Peterkin said:

No, actually. Bone is the exception. When it's harvested, all soft tissue, living cells, blood, marrow, everything another immune system would reject is removed. When it's implanted, it's just the calcified parts that are used. 

Plastic bone lasts longer, double or more the lifespan of titanium. Ideally, however, the implant should provide a scaffolding to guide the patient's own bone, which will replace it in time.

  Intriguing! But is it advisable?

Ah I see, so that’s a plus! That means all that would need to be done is the reshaping of said bone to align with the pelvis structure. 
 

as for it being advisable… obviously probably not as I’ll showcase in the “presentation”, however, I do think it’s a start, what I’ll show is basically how one might go about remodelling a pelvis, this is ignoring all muscle attachments and ligaments. Later on I’ll focus on how to tackle the issue of ligaments specifically as well as muscles, though ligaments are the ones that I think will be the most tricky. From research I’ve done it seems this could very well be possible. Gotta start saving my sources so I can show you. Also sorry for late reply, lots of studying.

[Peterkin]

Knowledge is never misplaced. Even if the purpose and focus changes over time, the more you learn, the more you can do with it.

Just be careful you don't burn out - slow ans steady is the magic formula.