The Novak Djokovic Debacle:

[beecee]

51 minutes ago, Arete said:

Being an Australian but living abroad I've been loosely following and enjoying the bureaucratic bungling of the whole issue by Scotty from Marketing and his administration. It has been a very publicly embarrassing debacle, which given my general sentiments towards the Liberals, is quite the popcorn feast. 

I do keep reading about Djokovic sticking by his principles/being principled, and thus being of strong moral fiber... but if you undergo some kind of action to publicly take a stand on a given issue, then attempt to subvert or otherwise avoid the consequences, you're just a garden variety hypocrite. If this really was the hill he wanted to die on, he should have boycotted the Australian Open in the first place. 

I also have to admit I have a particularly malevolent attitude towards public figures who use their position of privilege to flout and undermine public health efforts in the midst of a pandemic. You may as well be supplying arms to terrorists or dumping oil in the arctic and bragging about it. 

well said! +1

[StringJunky]

Vaccination programmes are necessarily about teamwork for them to work, and there is no 'I' in 'team'.

[iNow]

Perhaps relevant here to this thread, there is however an "I" in both Singles and Tennis   

[StringJunky]

53 minutes ago, iNow said:

Perhaps relevant here to this thread, there is however an "I" in both Singles and Tennis   

Therein lies the problem: they aren't playing for a team, and the attitude that goes with that. Some people think they are islands; we are all swimming in the same goldfish bowl, here on Earth.  He's obviously trying to usurp the rules anyway, from his previous comments on the subject.

Edited January 18, 2022 by StringJunky

[iNow]

Agreed. There is no “I” in Doubles 

[beecee]

Anyhow, he has now well and truly left the country. It appears after all the curfuffle that other nations, (and their tennis grand slams) will be applying the same no vaxx, no play rules. 

[Arete]

I guess as a general statement - infectious diseases fundamentally operate at population scales. Individual co-operation with public health measures have unavoidable implications for the population as a whole. The individual choice to get vaccinated, wear a mask, social distance, etc or not has a probabilistic impact on a pathogen's transmission and virulence properties. Those properties dictate how the disease spreads and how sick it makes people. 

This of course generates an intrinsic conflict between individual rights, and public health priorities.  On the other hand, there's stop signs, red lights, hazardous waste disposal laws, fire regulations, etc. so it's not exactly unprecedented that you may be expected to suffer minor inconvenience for the wellbeing of others, and people don't seem to get all righteous about their FrEeDuM to be a selfish, childish prick that endangers other people when it comes to those other circumstances. 

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Arete said:

This of course generates an intrinsic conflict between individual rights, and public health priorities.  On the other hand, there's stop signs, red lights, hazardous waste disposal laws, fire regulations, etc. so it's not exactly unprecedented that you may be expected to suffer minor inconvenience for the wellbeing of others, and people don't seem to get all righteous about their FrEeDuM to be a selfish, childish prick that endangers other people when it comes to those other circumstances. 

You have a great style! 🤣 Adding to all that of course is the vaccinations we receive as infants and as children...whooping cough, Polio etc. The anti vaxxers childish actions seem to pretend that vaccinations are some sort of new form of non tested or researched, insidious government attempt at mind control or conspiracy.

Edited January 18, 2022 by beecee

[MigL]

I have always maintained that 'freedoms' and 'rights' are granted by the society you live with; no one is born with them.
If society deems it necessary that everyone be vaccinated against public health threats, then make it mandatory.

Don't waffle and include conditions which can be circumvented.

[zapatos]

50 minutes ago, beecee said:

The anti vaxxers childish actions

How was Novak being childish?

[StringJunky]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

How was Novak being childish?

 Egocentricity is a feature of children.

Quote

Egocentrism is the inability to differentiate between self and other. More specifically, it is the inability to accurately assume or understand any perspective other than one's own.

 

[zapatos]

35 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

 Egocentricity is a feature of children.

 

How did you come by that diagnosis?

[beecee]

40 minutes ago, zapatos said:

How was Novak being childish?

I didn't say he was being childish, I agreed with the gist of the post by Arete thus...

3 hours ago, Arete said:

This of course generates an intrinsic conflict between individual rights, and public health priorities.  On the other hand, there's stop signs, red lights, hazardous waste disposal laws, fire regulations, etc. so it's not exactly unprecedented that you may be expected to suffer minor inconvenience for the wellbeing of others, and people don't seem to get all righteous about their FrEeDuM to be a selfish, childish prick that endangers other people when it comes to those other circumstances. 

But of course Djokovic was known for his rhetoric against vaccinations, and his railing against being forced to align with public health orders and mandatory vaccinations...so he fabricated an excuse. So while I wasn't inferring to Novak directly, just the anti vaxxer hypocritical nutballs, it seems to be a case of "if the cap fits Djokovic, he should wear it" 

52 minutes ago, MigL said:

I have always maintained that 'freedoms' and 'rights' are granted by the society you live with; no one is born with them.
If society deems it necessary that everyone be vaccinated against public health threats, then make it mandatory.

Don't waffle and include conditions which can be circumvented.

Bingo!!

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

I didn't say he was being childish, I agreed with the gist of the post by Arete thus...

Sorry, since the thread was about him I thought you were referring to him. Who exactly were the anti-vaxxers you were referring to who pretend "that vaccinations are some sort of new form of non tested or researched, insidious government attempt at mind control or conspiracy."?

[beecee]

3 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Sorry, since the thread was about him I thought you were referring to him. Who exactly were the anti-vaxxers you were referring to who pretend "that vaccinations are some sort of new form of non tested or researched, insidious government attempt at mind control or conspiracy."?

Not directly, no, but again, if the cap  fits and all that.

Who were the anti vaxxers???probably the same group amongst the anti vaxxers that raided the White House, and the copy cat mob in Melbourne that desicrated the city war memorial, and the larger part of the majority that have taken part in marches both in my country and the US. 

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

Not directly, no, but again, if the cap  fits and all that.

Who were the anti vaxxers???probably the same group amongst the anti vaxxers that raided the White House, and the copy cat mob in Melbourne that desicrated the city war memorial, and the larger part of the majority that have taken part in marches both in my country and the US. 

So you ARE saying he is an anti-vaxxer?

How do you know all of those people are anti-vaxxer and believe the government is involved in mind control or conspiracy? Most of the articles I see describe them as NOT anti-vax, just not interested in this vaccine, and more akin to people who don't want to be told what to do.

[beecee]

10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Who exactly were the anti-vaxxers you were referring to who pretend "that vaccinations are some sort of new form of non tested or researched, insidious government attempt at mind control or conspiracy."?

Like the nut carrying the sign from the Melbourne anti vaxx march....

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

So you ARE saying he is an anti-vaxxer?

He has said it himself.

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

How do you know all of those people are anti-vaxxer and believe the government is involved in mind control or conspiracy? Most of the articles I see describe them as NOT anti-vax, just not interested in this vaccine, and more akin to people who don't want to be told what to do.

I didn't say all of them, but a big majority of them yes....

7 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Most of the articles I see describe them as NOT anti-vax, just not interested in this vaccine, and more akin to people who don't want to be told what to do.

Yes, yes, the one's crying out freedom!! freedom!!! but at the same time chose to disregard the science and health edicts and law of the land...you know, like obeying red lights, and such.

[zapatos]

19 minutes ago, beecee said:

I didn't say all of them, but a big majority of them yes....

How do you know that?

20 minutes ago, beecee said:

He has said it himself.

How are you using the term 'anti-vaxxer'? Does that refer to people who are against all vaccines or those who are only against the COVID vaccine?

[Arete]

19 minutes ago, zapatos said:

How do you know all of those people are anti-vaxxer and believe the government is involved in mind control or conspiracy? Most of the articles I see describe them as NOT anti-vax, just not interested in this vaccine, and more akin to people who don't want to be told what to do.

So, my son went through a phase where he would refuse to brush his teeth. He'd claim it "hurt" or it "tasted yucky", but the reality was he just vying for independence and didn't like being told what to do and when to do it. Fortunately he outgrew the phase at age 4. 

If you're not getting vaccinated, despite the clear and unequivocal evidence that it's beneficial to you and those around you simply because you don't want to be told what to do, you're being childish. A less childish approach would be to separate the two issues - It is possible to oppose government mandates without refusing an obviously beneficial prophylactic vaccine to the detriment of self and community. 

[beecee]

14 minutes ago, zapatos said:

How do you know that?

You think the news is all fake like Trump does? You think the white house desecration was an illusion?..the melbourne ANZAC war memorial was an illusion? What do you think?

14 minutes ago, zapatos said:

How are you using the term 'anti-vaxxer'? Does that refer to people who are against all vaccines or those who are only against the COVID vaccine?

Does it matter? Why the third degree? Do you agree with these anti science, anti establishment, anti vaxxer nuts also? I'm against anyone ignoring the overwhelming scientific conclusions and vaccination requirements.

People/generations have been vaccinated all their lives. In certain states in Australia, parents that don't vaxx their kids against whooping cough and other childhood diseases, are not allowed to put their kids into kindagarten, and social welfare payments can also be stopped.

It's my right not to be confronted by some fucking unvaccinated infected idiot, that could pass on the disease to me. Thankfully in many areas of society now in Australia, its no vaxx, no job.

Djokovic tried to rort the system. He got caught and thankfully thrown out of the country. Plus it now seems likely that the other grand slams ( the French next) will also require him to be vaccinated. He has shit in his own nest.

Edited January 18, 2022 by beecee

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

You think the news is all fake like Trump does? You think the white house desecration was an illusion?..the melbourne ANZAC war memorial was an illusion? What do you think?

I think I want you to answer the question rather than asking questions in return.

 

2 minutes ago, beecee said:

Does it matter? Why the third degree? Do you agree with these anti science, anti establishment, anti vaxxer nuts also? 

Just say you don't want to answer the questions I ask. We don't need to have a discussion.

 

9 minutes ago, Arete said:

If you're not getting vaccinated, despite the clear and unequivocal evidence that it's beneficial to you and those around you simply because you don't want to be told what to do, you're being childish. A less childish approach would be to separate the two issues - It is possible to oppose government mandates without refusing an obviously beneficial prophylactic vaccine to the detriment of self and community. 

All true, but it didn't really answer my question about these people believing in mind-control and conspiracies.

[Arete]

9 minutes ago, zapatos said:

All true, but it didn't really answer my question about these people believing in mind-control and conspiracies.

While I don't think one can generalize about everyone's reason for refusing the COVID vaccine, there certainly are a number of widely circulated, obviously false conspiracy theories about the COVID vaccines, many of which involve mind control. 

[beecee]

2 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I think I want you to answer the question rather than asking questions in return.

Sorry your highness, I'll try again....I don't believe all the news and reports and photos are fake...I don't know any anti vaxxers personally. EG:the Melbourne march and desecration, the conspircy signs and photos I have linked to...the white house desecration and news and photos. Does that suffice?

5 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Just say you don't want to answer the questions I ask. We don't need to have a discussion.

You think the photos supporting the conspiracy nonsense are fake? What more do you want? A personal interview with one of these nuts? 

8 minutes ago, zapatos said:

All true, but it didn't really answer my question about these people believing in mind-control and conspiracies.

Sorry your highness, here again....

 

 

 

Thankfully, in Australia, we do not now need to worry about these nutbags, as 95% in NSW are fully vaxxed, 93% in Victoria and overall Australia is now in excess of 90% fully vaxxed. Probably the most vaccinated country in the world.

6 minutes ago, Arete said:

While I don't think one can generalize about everyone's reason for refusing the COVID vaccine, there certainly are a number of widely circulated, obviously false conspiracy theories about the COVID vaccines, many of which involve mind control. 

Agreed about the generalisation...obviously though, they have been grossly mislead.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/14/qanon-how-the-far-right-cult-took-australians-down-a-rabbit-hole-of-extremism

After the US, Britain and Canada, Australia was the fourth largest producer of QAnon content worldwide

By 2021, those wanting to believe that QAnonism had mostly spared isolated Australia had an increasing amount of evidence to ignore. Australia’s experience of the coronavirus pandemic between 2020 and 2021 was dominated by a series of rolling lockdowns that trapped Australians at home with a lot of frustration – and the internet – for months at a time. The preponderance of anecdotal accounts detailing encounters with QAnon online could be written off as unrepresentative of what may have been going on in the broader community. Accumulating statistics, however, were a far harder boulder to shift.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/05/18/australians-are-embracing-anti-vaccine-facebook-groups-filled-with-conspiracy-theories-and-lies/

 

The number of Australians joining anti-vaccine Facebook groups filled with COVID-19 misinformation and conspiracy theories has exploded in the past year, with their membership nearly tripling according to a new report.

This drastic increase from groups spreading potentially harmful medical misinformation and conspiracy theories has happened despite the platform’s repeated promises to crack down on such content.

[zapatos]

11 minutes ago, beecee said:

Sorry your highness,

Usually asking people to support their assertions or define their terms doesn't meet with such hostility. I'll leave you alone now. Sorry if i offended you.

17 minutes ago, Arete said:

While I don't think one can generalize about everyone's reason for refusing the COVID vaccine, there certainly are a number of widely circulated, obviously false conspiracy theories about the COVID vaccines, many of which involve mind control. 

Agreed. I was just wondering about how wide spread it was. It seemed to me that mind control was way out there on the fringe and not generally common in the non-vaxxed population.

[beecee]

6 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Usually asking people to support their assertions or define their terms doesn't meet with such hostility. I'll leave you alone now. Sorry if i offended you.

Agreed. I was just wondering about how wide spread it was. It seemed to me that mind control was way out there on the fringe and not generally common in the non-vaxxed population.

If I seem angry, you are correct. Myself, the wife and Son have all tested positive, with mild symptoms, although now out of isolation. My wife does have underlying conditions,(asthma) but seems to have recovered OK.

I also thought my so called assertions were pretty well supported by the photos I linked to, and I don't believe I said anything about it being exclusively all of them...some are just misguided.

Edited January 19, 2022 by beecee