Politicians change Highway code...A poisoned chalice?

[JIMMY12345]

At work a large number of motorists seem unaware of the new changes. They come into force this weekend. With the understandable pressure of COVID and other it would be expected that Government publicity is low. Laws can have good intent and bad consequences as well as be fatally flawed. In Germany pedestrians always had priority. In UK it was cars. I prefer the old UK system re pedestrians.

Its going to very scary. Especially on dark winter nights crossing junctions. Most cars 99% on probability will give way. 1 % will not. Simply because they do NOT see the pedestrian at the junction. Pedestrians will comfortably cross because they see the bright lights of cars who are clearly visible. We are ALL more vulnerable when walking .I feel there is a very real possibility when we are walking accident rates may rise. Cyclists also have to give way but we are less insulated and hence have a greater sense of the road.

Theoretically at junctions and roundabouts as I approach on my trusty old 531 bicycle motorists should give me priority. Here common sense goes out of the window. Motorists are now unsure how long should they wait for me. Fair enough if I am kilometres away and you need a telescope to see. Any nearer and the motorist pulls out. It might invite a £1000 fine from any unsympathetic police car passing by.

When cycling I do not think that many people will be hogging the middle lane. Cars are much faster. Irrespective of the law they will hoot and hoot. Cyclists are courteous and most will pull over to give both ample room. At present my friends cycle two abreast on quiet roads. In the city we will stick to single file. We will continue to. Again its about mutual respect and safety.
I have attended lots of cycle events and a small minority of car drivers get very frustrated with the slow speeds of cyclists. Some of these car drivers are on genuine emergencies eg GP'S
II am fully confident ALL Political parties had our interests at heart .However they should watch and review. Quiet a few University scientists lecturers I know cycle to campus. Scientists are above all superbly eco friendly. Lets not make it more dangerous than cool.

Beware of poisoned chalices.

[Phi for All]

9 hours ago, JIMMY12345 said:

At work a large number of motorists seem unaware of the new changes.

As are probably everybody outside your country. For discussion purposes, to which changed laws are you referring?

Also, you're fairly vague about accidents rising, but extremely specific about 99% of people "giving way" (yielding?) and all cyclists being courteous. Even for political opinion, I'd like more rigor when it comes to assessing the behavior of large groups of people.

[dimreepr]

11 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

As are probably everybody outside your country. For discussion purposes, to which changed laws are you referring?

Indeed, it's always been the same for me; if I'm in charge of a vehicle, I'm not allowed to hit anyone with it...

[Endy0816]

4 hours ago, Phi for All said:

As are probably everybody outside your country. For discussion purposes, to which changed laws are you referring?

Also, you're fairly vague about accidents rising, but extremely specific about 99% of people "giving way" (yielding?) and all cyclists being courteous. Even for political opinion, I'd like more rigor when it comes to assessing the behavior of large groups of people.

Probably UK related.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the-highway-code-8-changes-you-need-to-know-from-29-january-2022

Seems odd timing and under publicized, but nothing much different than the local laws here in Florida.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Endy0816

[MigL]

Not sure if I understand the OP's position, but it also seems to me that the onus is increasingly being placed on motorists to 'safeguard' pedestrians and cyclists who choose to share the roadways ( which are paid for by vehicular taxes ).
Cyclists will travel on the opposite direction as traffic, will not stop behind the last vehicle, and pass on the right.
Pedestrians walk, in either direction, on plowed roads in the winter when sidewalks aren't cleared, and often don't even look anymore before crossing roads.
Motor vehicles are least able to stop, or change direction, quickly, yet are always 'at fault' only because they are seen as a bad thing, especially by big city dwellers who can make do without personal transportation

[exchemist]

16 hours ago, JIMMY12345 said:

At work a large number of motorists seem unaware of the new changes. They come into force this weekend. With the understandable pressure of COVID and other it would be expected that Government publicity is low. Laws can have good intent and bad consequences as well as be fatally flawed. In Germany pedestrians always had priority. In UK it was cars. I prefer the old UK system re pedestrians.

Its going to very scary. Especially on dark winter nights crossing junctions. Most cars 99% on probability will give way. 1 % will not. Simply because they do NOT see the pedestrian at the junction. Pedestrians will comfortably cross because they see the bright lights of cars who are clearly visible. We are ALL more vulnerable when walking .I feel there is a very real possibility when we are walking accident rates may rise. Cyclists also have to give way but we are less insulated and hence have a greater sense of the road.

Theoretically at junctions and roundabouts as I approach on my trusty old 531 bicycle motorists should give me priority. Here common sense goes out of the window. Motorists are now unsure how long should they wait for me. Fair enough if I am kilometres away and you need a telescope to see. Any nearer and the motorist pulls out. It might invite a £1000 fine from any unsympathetic police car passing by.

When cycling I do not think that many people will be hogging the middle lane. Cars are much faster. Irrespective of the law they will hoot and hoot. Cyclists are courteous and most will pull over to give both ample room. At present my friends cycle two abreast on quiet roads. In the city we will stick to single file. We will continue to. Again its about mutual respect and safety.
I have attended lots of cycle events and a small minority of car drivers get very frustrated with the slow speeds of cyclists. Some of these car drivers are on genuine emergencies eg GP'S
II am fully confident ALL Political parties had our interests at heart .However they should watch and review. Quiet a few University scientists lecturers I know cycle to campus. Scientists are above all superbly eco friendly. Lets not make it more dangerous than cool.

Beware of poisoned chalices.

This is about the new UK Highway Code, I presume. I   don't think anyone suggests that pedestrians or cyclists should change their behaviour, just because vehicle drivers are now told to treat them with priority. The object, as I understand it, is to improve the safety of the more vulnerable road users. But they should continue to take sensible precautions, as today.

I am reminded of the advice given to new boys at my school's rowing club: "In theory, powered vessels give way to sailing craft and sailing craft give way to those propelled by oars. However it is advisable not to test either of these theories too closely."   

 

[StringJunky]

 

 

I suppose, with the new reversed hierarchy, motorists will be more liable in an accident involving pedestrians and cyclists, or cyclists hurt a pedestrian, if they are shown to have not observed it. With the increasing use of in-vehicle cameras, it's probably more enforceable with that sort of evidence likely to be more available now. Even quite a few cyclists have them on their helmets.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Not sure if I understand the OP's position, but it also seems to me that the onus is increasingly being placed on motorists to 'safeguard' pedestrians and cyclists who choose to share the roadways ( which are paid for by vehicular taxes ).
 

.False.

Quote

Motorists pay for roads, yes? No. All tax payers pay for roads, not just motorists. Those who pay income tax and those who pay council tax are the ones who pay for roads, and that’s not just motorists. And anybody who buys anything in Britain also helps to pay for roads because VAT also contributes to the national coffers. Businesses which pay business rates also contribute into the national coffers. And that’s where the money for roads comes from: the consolidated fund, the treasury’s pot of cash that pays for everything. No taxation in the UK is ring-fenced i.e raised by one set of users, and spent on that set of users. But what about ‘road tax’? Clearly, the name says it all, you might think, it’s a tax that pays for roads! Sorry, no, ‘road tax’ doesn’t actually exist. It was abolished in 1937, along with the ‘road fund licence’. It’s now car tax, a UK tax on tailpipe CO2 emissions above 100gm per km*. It’s not now, and never has been, a fee to use roads.

https://ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as-road-tax/who-pays-road-tax/#:~:text=Businesses which pay business rates,cash that pays for everything.

Edited January 28, 2022 by StringJunky

[MigL]

Yet you pay licensing fees to put your vehicle on the road ...

Motorists pay many more taxes, from gasoline taxes to tire taxes, and the fact that they go into a general slush fund, and not a dedicated 'road' fund makes little difference to the fact that cyclists and pedestrians do not.

[StringJunky]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

Yet you pay licensing fees to put your vehicle on the road ...

Motorists pay many more taxes, from gasoline taxes to tire taxes, and the fact that they go into a general slush fund, and not a dedicated 'road' fund makes little difference to the fact that cyclists and pedestrians do not.

A very wealthy cyclist/pedestrian with no motors will pay less towards the upkeep of road infrastructure than a typical salaried/factory worker  car driver? Almost everything everyone pays for, some fraction goes to the tax man . Besides, most people are some mix of each transport category.

Edited January 29, 2022 by StringJunky

[John Cuthber]

On 1/28/2022 at 6:03 AM, JIMMY12345 said:

Its going to very scary. Especially on dark winter nights crossing junctions. Most cars 99% on probability will give way. 1 % will not. Simply because they do NOT see the pedestrian at the junction

That's called "Driving without due care and attention".

[studiot]

The rules of conduct for highway users varies from country to country and I think this new edition was cooking before Brexit to more closely align the UK with European practice.

However it has really introduced little or nothing that is fundamentally new, despite what has suddenly caught media attention here.
In particular the 'rights of way' have always been in favour of pedestrians in most circumstances, since the first edition.
It has largely been a tidying up exercise.

I remember watching a qizz TV series in the 1960s about knowledge of driving rules.
They often caught people out back then with the question about pedestrians at road junctions.
Failure to observe this is one of thos 'absolute' offences for which there is no legal defence.

I don't have an older Highway code now, but here is the directive from the 1999 edition

 

 

 

[exchemist]

11 hours ago, MigL said:

Yet you pay licensing fees to put your vehicle on the road ...

Motorists pay many more taxes, from gasoline taxes to tire taxes, and the fact that they go into a general slush fund, and not a dedicated 'road' fund makes little difference to the fact that cyclists and pedestrians do not.

This distinction you make between motorists, cyclists and pedestrians seems to me a false one, so far as taxation is concerned. Every motorist is also a pedestrian. Most cyclists are all three.

The taxation principle, insofar as there is one, is surely not that a class of person pays more or less tax than another, but that an activity that requires costly infrastructure, causes pollution and contributes to climate change should be taxed.  

Edited January 29, 2022 by exchemist

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

This distinction you make between motorists, cyclists and pedestrians seems to me a false one, so far as taxation is concerned. Every motorist is also a pedestrian. Most cyclists are all three.

The taxation principle, insofar as there is one, is surely not that a class of person pays more or less tax than another, but that an activity that requires costly infrastructure, causes pollution and contributes to climate change should be taxed.  

My neighbour had the same attitude, that each group was somehow monolithic  and distinct. We can only ssume that such persons have roots growing out of their arse and into their seats, with everyone outside their vehicle an infernal obstruction. 

[MigL]

9 hours ago, StringJunky said:

A very wealthy cyclist/pedestrian with no motors will pay less towards the upkeep of road infrastructure than a typical salaried/factory worker  car driver?

Yes.
Just ask Donald Trump ...
 

[StringJunky]

7 minutes ago, MigL said:

Yes.
Just ask Donald Trump ...
 

Yes, the very wealthy could be exempted by their 'tax-efficient' accountants.

[studiot]

Interactions of highway users with both each other and the highway itself is extremely complicated in the UK, and far from entirely covered in the Highway Code (any edition)

Ownership and funding of both highway construction and maintenance is also compllcated but surely off topic in this thread ?

 

I would just like to thank Endy for posting that link.  +1

It is ironic that Uk citizens (myself included) couldn't find it.
It is even more ironic that the link to the official announcement states that the new rules take effect from 29 January, but that the new document will not be available until at least April, to buy in the shops.

This is the sort of shambolic government we are now suffering from in so many areas.

[StringJunky]

Here's a BBC explanation on what initiated the change:

Quote

A BBC Panorama investigation recently revealed the fatality rate on our roads is on the rise for the first time in 40 years, even though there have been huge advances in vehicle safety technology over the last two decades.

Safety groups say UK drivers routinely ignore the rules because they know they can get away with it.

However, changes in the language of The Highway Code, which come in to force from 29 January, may be about to drive a change.

The adjustments mean a driver is now more likely to be penalised for putting other road users in harm's way - especially if they are caught on camera.

Drivers of large vehicles must now recognise they pose the greatest threat of harm to smaller vehicles, horse riders, cyclists and pedestrians, according to the updated rule book.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59997523

If drivers are getting away with it, that might be down to the ever diminishing presence of the police on the roads.

Edited January 29, 2022 by StringJunky

[studiot]

50 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Here's a BBC explanation on what initiated the change:

If drivers are getting away with it, that might be down to the ever diminishing presence of the police on the roads.

I very much doubt there is one cause, though changes to policing practice seems a likely contributory candidate.

 

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

the fatality rate on our roads is on the rise for the first time in 40 years

And for 40+ years we had the benefit of the Road Research Laboratory (establish 1933, privatised 1996)

So political dogma is another cause.

[Endy0816]

21 hours ago, studiot said:

Interactions of highway users with both each other and the highway itself is extremely complicated in the UK, and far from entirely covered in the Highway Code (any edition)

Ownership and funding of both highway construction and maintenance is also compllcated but surely off topic in this thread ?

 

I would just like to thank Endy for posting that link.  +1

It is ironic that Uk citizens (myself included) couldn't find it.
It is even more ironic that the link to the official announcement states that the new rules take effect from 29 January, but that the new document will not be available until at least April, to buy in the shops.

This is the sort of shambolic government we are now suffering from in so many areas.

You're welcome. Anything major like this should definitely be better publicized by the government. For even a relatively minor change they do a full on media blitz here to ensure that everyone is aware.

 

Was half thinking might be to standardize things for Self Driving vehicles. Having broadly the same rules could give UK an edge in the international scene.

Could also be of course that whoever of the governing body is just thinks it is time for a change too.

[Phi for All]

!

Moderator Note

Posts on Automated Traffic Enforcement Effectiveness split to here.

 

[Endy0816]

Just curious, how have things been going since they were introduced?

[dimreepr]

16 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

Just curious, how have things been going since they were introduced?

I can't say that I've noticed a difference, I still don't walk into oncoming traffic... 

[exchemist]

56 minutes ago, Endy0816 said:

Just curious, how have things been going since they were introduced?

I have, once, on foot, been invited to cross ahead of a car turning into a side road, when I stopped to let it go by. I was a bit surprised but then remembered this change. I doubt it will make much difference, especially since there seems to have been zero by way of a campaign to alert anyone to the changes. The trouble with these rules is that they will be observed fastidiously by the sort of person who is any case a careful road user. Yer average white van man, i.e. the sort of person actually likely to knock you over, won't give a toss, just as he never has in the past.  It's a bit like voluntary covid mask-wearing: the people likely to be infectious won't be the ones who will bother with a mask. 

 

[StringJunky]

35 minutes ago, exchemist said:

I have, once, on foot, been invited to cross ahead of a car turning into a side road, when I stopped to let it go by. I was a bit surprised but then remembered this change. I doubt it will make much difference, especially since there seems to have been zero by way of a campaign to alert anyone to the changes. The trouble with these rules is that they will be observed fastidiously by the sort of person who is any case a careful road user. Yer average white van man, i.e. the sort of person actually likely to knock you over, won't give a toss, just as he never has in the past.  It's a bit like voluntary covid mask-wearing: the people likely to be infectious won't be the ones who will bother with a mask. 

 

Except if WVM gets caught, he's liable by default now.  There's no legal contest. Most pedestrians will use their commonsense and check for in-turning traffic, and I think most pedestrians will just let them turn in before crossing. I'm totally deaf wrt things I can't see and it may cover my ass when I forget to look behind me, although I usually do.

Edited March 17, 2022 by StringJunky

[Area54]

This is a general observation and, perhaps for some, a reminder.

In the UK there is no such thing as Right of Way. No road user ever has right of way in any situation. What they may have is priority. In that case other road users should respect that priority by giving way. The responsibility remains with the user with priority to ensure it is safe to proceed, not to confidently advance on the basis they have "right of way". Anecdotaly, most people seem unware of this.