The feminism movement is leading to a new culture war today?

[nec209]

I have notice lot of conservatives now are making reference to the feminism movement being evil yes even doctors and Ph.D  like Jordan Peterson's going after the feminism movement. Now I don’t know what is going on at the college campus or what they are teaching in women studies these days but many conservatives and psychologist like Jordan Peterson's are speaking out about the feminism movement.

So I have no idea what they are teaching in the schools  in women studies or what the goal is but it seems many conservatives and psychologist are speaking out now. They do not elaborate on what they are doing or what they are teaching in schools other than saying they are evil and are a radical group.

And so many conservatives and psychologist like Jordan Peterson's are speaking out now, so I don’t know if the feminism movement is different today than what it was in the past or what the fuss is about.

This has been going on for number of years but got really heated up with Trump and the Proud Boys and Jordan Peterson's on the feminism movement.

Edited February 6, 2022 by nec209

[exchemist]

16 minutes ago, nec209 said:

I have notice lot of conservatives now are making reference to the feminism movement being evil yes even doctors and Ph.D  like Jordan Peterson's going after the feminism movement. Now I don’t know what is going on at the college campus or what they are teaching in women studies these days but many conservatives and psychologist like Jordan Peterson's are speaking out about the feminism movement.

So I have no idea what they are teaching in the schools  in women studies or what the goal is but it seems many conservatives and psychologist are speaking out now. They do not elaborate on what they are doing or what they are teaching in schools other than saying they are evil and are a radical group.

And so many conservatives and psychologist like Jordan Peterson's are speaking out now, so I don’t know if the feminism movement is different today than what it was in the past or what the fuss is about.

This has been going on for number of years but got really heated up with Trump and the Proud Boys and Jordan Peterson's on the feminism movement.

I have considered myself a feminist since my days at university in the 1970s. (I am a man.) But today in N America, paradoxically as the social status of women has gradually improved, sexual politics has become a confusing snake pit. One false move and you get bitten. So I am staying well out of it. 

[Phi for All]

5 hours ago, nec209 said:

I have notice lot of conservatives now are making reference to the feminism movement being evil yes even doctors and Ph.D  like Jordan Peterson's going after the feminism movement. Now I don’t know what is going on at the college campus or what they are teaching in women studies these days but many conservatives and psychologist like Jordan Peterson's are speaking out about the feminism movement.

So I have no idea what they are teaching in the schools  in women studies or what the goal is but it seems many conservatives and psychologist are speaking out now. They do not elaborate on what they are doing or what they are teaching in schools other than saying they are evil and are a radical group.

And so many conservatives and psychologist like Jordan Peterson's are speaking out now, so I don’t know if the feminism movement is different today than what it was in the past or what the fuss is about.

This has been going on for number of years but got really heated up with Trump and the Proud Boys and Jordan Peterson's on the feminism movement.

Primates in general exhibit this kind of behavior when they think their territory is being threatened. Humans, at times, are able to overcome baser instincts with bursts of higher intelligence and can more fully utilize the gifts evolution has given them. Unfortunately, Jordan Peterson and Trump and the Proud Boys.

[iNow]

The movement which matters here IMO isn’t feminism, but instead the movement from small minded white males who feel increasingly marginalized and are afraid of no longer representing the majority.

If white males support minority positions like they so often profess to do, then why are they so terrified of moving into the minority themselves? You wouldn’t be hearing about  these “evil feminism” messages so often if fewer males were receptive to them. 

[CharonY]

It is the fear of change. I have been learning quite a lot how different and challenging navigating competitive careers for women is from my wife as well as (former) bosses. I am mentoring quite a few women, too and it is obvious that there are still ongoing challenges. Yes, it is getting a bit harder for men, but this is because there is a desire to create a system that does not caters to them almost exclusively. We are still working with a patchwork system and it is certainly not perfect as attitudes have not really shifted that much among the powerful. But it might be changing.

Conservatives don't like it as, well conservatism almost by definition likes to stick to things they were and folks like Peterson love culture wars because that is how they make their money nowadays.

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Primates in general exhibit this kind of behavior when they think their territory is being threatened. 

Like when feminists feel their 'territory' is being trodden on by trans-females.

[Phi for All]

4 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Like when feminists feel their 'territory' is being trodden on by trans-females.

Are the feminists threatening the lives of the trans-females with beatings and guns and violent overthrow? Is there a feminist Jordan Peterson out there claiming you can't fully respect anyone you could easily beat up? I thought the women who feel their territory is being invaded by trans-females were working intellectually to change rules and laws, rather than physically bullying those they oppose.

[StringJunky]

21 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Are the feminists threatening the lives of the trans-females with beatings and guns and violent overthrow? Is there a feminist Jordan Peterson out there claiming you can't fully respect anyone you could easily beat up? I thought the women who feel their territory is being invaded by trans-females were working intellectually to change rules and laws, rather than physically bullying those they oppose.

Did I bring  violence into it? That appears to be a needless distraction  and red herring. I'm more focused with the principle. Feminists appear to be complaining  that their, implied, territory is being trodden on.  Read CharonY's post again and reverse the genders, with respect to 'womens spaces' that my post was refering to as a counterpoint. The issues are two-sided.

Too many people are 'fighting for a cause' when discussing contentious subjects, when displaying the indifference and emotional detachment of a scientist might be more fruitful in finding a solution. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Like when feminists feel their 'territory' is being trodden on by trans-females.

Here, intersectionality comes into play. There is a long history where fights for equal rights resulted in infights. In the US, the civil rights movement experienced quite a significant amount of gender discrimination. I.e. fighting for black rights, often was exclusionary to women's right, and especially black women's rights. Fundamentally. as a society we need to take a careful look at our attitudes and structures to see where we are exclusionary and why and how that ultimately impacts us from the individual to the societal level. There can be disconnect between the ideals and of, e.g. the civil rights movement, and how individuals within in act and focus on. 

Fundamentally, that is also the idea with regard to diversity. There is the (potentially somewhat naïve) assumption that if leadership is sufficiently diverse, one would be more cognizant of conscious and unconscious exclusionary biases and issues. That, unfortunately requires that everyone involved has significant knowledge on the issue, which quite often requires more than personal experiences. But I do see it as a problem to use these fractures in order to discredit the principles of a given movement. I.e. even if there are feminists who are exclusionary, should we stop striving for a system where men and women have equal access to power?

That being said, the society as a whole is clearly still created and dominated with a male-focused element when it comes to power and influence. Things like abortion rights but even maternity/paternity leave show limits of equality and are still elements that limit transition of women into leadership roles.  

[StringJunky]

14 minutes ago, CharonY said:

But I do see it as a problem to use these fractures in order to discredit the principles of a given movement. I.e. even if there are feminists who are exclusionary, should we stop striving for a system where men and women have equal access to power?

Of course not, but one should be mindful of collective hypocrisy. The squeaky gets the grease, and clearly it is the exclusionary faction that's getting in the news and. hence, looking like they speak for feminists as a whole. JK Rowling and some other prominent feminists are exclusionary to a subset of the population, that they deem are not legitimate members of their category.  People like her get on the front page.

Edited February 6, 2022 by StringJunky

[beecee]

The former leader of the femnist movement in Australia was a sheila named Germaine Greer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer She was known to fight tooth and nail for down trodden women and gained much publicity both here and in the old dart.

In recent time though she has changed her opnions somewhat, particularly with the "me too" movement. 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

Let me say now, I certainly do not agree with her seemingly revised views on Harvey Weinstein as per the article...."Acknowledging to the Sydney Morning Herald that “what makes it different is when the man has economic power, as Harvey Weinstein has”, Greer said that “if you spread your legs because he said ‘be nice to me and I’ll give you a job in a movie’ then I’m afraid that’s tantamount to consent, and it’s too late now to start whingeing about that”.

What Jorden Peterson does or says I don't really give a stuff, ( I really can't stand the bloke) but the question/s that needs to be asked, is has feminisim reached or achieved its goal of equality, and obviously the answer to that is no not fully yet, particularly in wages and such in some industries. But no one can deny it has achieved great deserved success, which has my full backing. Still though, imo at least, there are some feminists who appear drunk with power, and seemingly have a goal of making men second class citizens. I call them feminazis. 

Can I relay a true story? A couple of years ago while heading into the city on a bus, I was comfortably seated as the Bus gathered more and more passengers. Eventually a woman hopped on around 40ish and had to stand. I automatically had my learned good education and respect for woman that was instilled into me in the fifties engaged and I stood up for her. She looked at me with total amazement and refused to take the seat. After some prompting, she decided to sit down, and questioned me about it, saying in all here years, she had never had anyone stand up for her. 

This taking a good thing too far is also evident in political correctness with regards to speech.  

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by beecee

[CharonY]

8 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Of course not, but one should be mindful of collective hypocrisy. The squeaky gets the grease, and clearly it is the exclusionary faction that's getting in the news and. hence, looking like they speak for feminists as a whole. JK Rowling and some other prominent feminists are exclusionary to a subset of the population, that they deem are not legitimate members of their category.  People like her get on the front page.

That is certainly true. Unfortunately these issues are not simple academic discourse, but also intersects with politics, public discourse and so on. It is unfortunate that (internet) celebrities tend to take away much of the oxygen for much needed debates. Unfortunately the internet, but also conventional media thrive from dissent. So uninformed radical takes get the front page, whereas folks investigating these issues are rarely even mentioned (especially not the difficult ones). 

7 hours ago, beecee said:

But no one can deny it has achieved great deserved success, which has my full backing.

In certain areas advances have been made, though up to a certain level there are still barriers. One issue is that it can vary quite a bit depending on are and system. In Germany, for example in the last decade the percentage of female professors increased from 10 to about 20%, which might sound like a steep increase. Yet, if you look closer, women are more likely to be on non-tenure track positions (i.e. these are non-permanent positions). What basically happened is that in order to address gender imbalance a system of what some might call "virtue signaling" has been implemented, which basically creates an illusion of catering for minorities but effectively being ignored where it counts.

The good news is that when folks get used to such systems, some actually take them seriously. I still do not see it happening in Germany, but in parts of the US and Canada, it has been starting to make a dent, but it will take at least another decade to see whether these changes take hold.

Obviously if we talk about a longer time span, say the fifties, yes attitudes have permanently changed. Though I would add that the baseline was pretty low to begin with.

[beecee]

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Obviously if we talk about a longer time span, say the fifties, yes attitudes have permanently changed. Though I would add that the baseline was pretty low to begin with.

Certainly agree with that.

[Peterkin]

21 hours ago, nec209 said:

And so many conservatives and psychologist like Jordan Peterson's are speaking out now, so I don’t know if the feminism movement is different today than what it was in the past or what the fuss is about.

Let's get this straight first: There are no psychologists like Jordan Peterson - he's a one-off, and he's nuts. Real psychologists have little or nothing to say about feminism, since it is a political movement, not a psychological one. Conservatives, OTH, have been drifting rightward for some decades now, are now well into the shadowlands of fascism or feudalism, whichever they can achieve faster.

Of course it's different today from what it was in the past - everything changes over time. A political movement has to respond to political events and the changing needs of its membership.  Of course the far right says (not what it really thinks, ever) that feminism is evil - I mean, look at all the revolutionary stuff feminism has brought about. Women are getting as much as 80-85% of the pay men get for the same work; they're given as much as six weeks off for maternity leave, and they're allowed to travel to a different state - unless the vigilantes stop them - to get an abortion. 

[nec209]

17 hours ago, iNow said:

The movement which matters here IMO isn’t feminism, but instead the movement from small minded white males who feel increasingly marginalized and are afraid of no longer representing the majority.

If white males support minority positions like they so often profess to do, then why are they so terrified of moving into the minority themselves? You wouldn’t be hearing about  these “evil feminism” messages so often if fewer males were receptive to them. 

So you are saying Jordan Peterson is saying feminism is a radical group now and taking all the jobs from white men? Or is this really over the abortion thing? That he has problem with?

 

[CharonY]

Peterson is saying whatever creates the most outrage so that he can remain relevant and line is pockets. 

[iNow]

7 hours ago, nec209 said:

So you are saying Jordan Peterson is saying feminism is a radical group now and taking all the jobs from white men? Or is this really over the abortion thing? That he has problem with?

Mostly I'm saying I don't give a shit what Peterson is saying. He's a pot stirrer trying to get attention and appeal to a very vocal minority. He's not representing actual issues that are actually problematic IMO. 

Also this:

40 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Peterson is saying whatever creates the most outrage so that he can remain relevant and line is pockets. 

 

[StringJunky]

On 2/6/2022 at 4:33 PM, iNow said:

The movement which matters here IMO isn’t feminism, but instead the movement from small minded white males who feel increasingly marginalized and are afraid of no longer representing the majority.

If white males support minority positions like they so often profess to do, then why are they so terrified of moving into the minority themselves? You wouldn’t be hearing about  these “evil feminism” messages so often if fewer males were receptive to them. 

Melodrama, much? Stop caricaturizing. You are getting old.

Edited February 7, 2022 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 2/7/2022 at 2:46 AM, Peterkin said:

Of course it's different today from what it was in the past - everything changes over time. A political movement has to respond to political events and the changing needs of its membership.  Of course the far right says (not what it really thinks, ever) that feminism is evil - I mean, look at all the revolutionary stuff feminism has brought about. Women are getting as much as 80-85% of the pay men get for the same work; they're given as much as six weeks off for maternity leave, and they're allowed to travel to a different state - unless the vigilantes stop them - to get an abortion. 

This is generally not true. The 80-85% pay gap is from not getting the same jobs, not from being paid less for doing the same ones.

Edited February 9, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[Peterkin]

12 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

from not getting the same jobs, not from being paid less for doing the same ones.

That may be so, though i don't see it proven. Or, if it's the same job, they call it something else if a woman does it. Does that mitigate the income gap?

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

That may be so, though i don't see it proven. Or, if it's the same job, they call it something else if a woman does it. Does that mitigate the income gap?

The route to mitigating any unfairness in the gap is through equal opportunities, if that is what you are asking.

[TheVat]

Sounds correct, on the differential being due to who gets what jobs.  Many fields where men are still preferentially steered towards higher pay management positions.  Or fields where women dominate in numbers and society hasn't recognized the full value of that work.  Getting firm figures on this is a moving target, given the changes happening and the current rate of college enrollment of women (around 60% of students are female, per a recent reading).  

An example I would offer is the relative pay of primary school teachers and lawyers.  I would suggest teachers are of more value to society, and a shortage would have more dire consequences.  Pay scales may not reflect this.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

This is generally not true. The 80-85% pay gap is from not getting the same jobs, not from being paid less for doing the same ones.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

That may be so

It’s not. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2019/04/01/the-gender-pay-gap-and-the-career-choice-myth/?sh=21b12cda114a

There is no occupation where women earn more than men. According to the 2017 American Community Surveyconducted by the census, there is no occupational category where women out-earn men. If the gender gap was purely a matter of occupational choice, women should be able to obtain parity with men when they have the same occupation.

[J.C.MacSwell]

36 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s not. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2019/04/01/the-gender-pay-gap-and-the-career-choice-myth/?sh=21b12cda114a

 

 

It is generally because they don't get the same jobs. Read your link. The arguments are essentially that it's not by an individuals choice, and covers a number of reasons why they get different jobs. (women's vs men's typical choices of career paths is obviously a factor also but the attempt is to downplay it) 

Don't let the opening statement fool you:

"April 2 is Equal Pay Day, and, at least for one day, attention will be focused on the fact that women do not earn as much as men for working the same jobs"

There is nothing in the article that supports that position.

Edited February 10, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[Ken Fabian]

I suspect it is the same culture war and conservative commentators like Peterson will pass over the reasonable feminists in favor of finger pointing at the unreasonable ones and encourage the unthinking to believe they are all like that. He seems to use his understanding of human psychology to identify the buttons to press - to provoke the nutters of one side to repellent idiocies and the biases of the ones to unthinking support of the political conservatism he chooses to support and promote.