The feminism movement is leading to a new culture war today?

[iNow]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It is generally because they don't get the same jobs. 

I’m confused by your position. It seems to ignore that women are paid less even in the exact same jobs, which suggests the different jobs argument is at best a misguided distraction. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

17 minutes ago, iNow said:

I’m confused by your position. It seems to ignore that women are paid less even in the exact same jobs, which suggests the different jobs argument is at best a misguided distraction. 

My position doesn't ignore it. That's why I used the word generally. It's simply a relatively minor element in the gender pay gap. 

That's a distraction from the problem of equal opportunity and the problems (and/or non problems) of career choices made by women, or to some extent forced on women.

[erik]

There isn't one but multiple feminisms so your question has no meaning.

Are you talking about the feminism that just wants equality and the end of discrimination based on gender.

Or are you talking about the feminism that wants an all out war between males and females.

Those who use the second category to dismiss the legitimate concerns of the first, are the true evil in my opinion.

[iNow]

36 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

That's a distraction from the problem of equal opportunity and the problems (and/or non problems) of career choices made by women, or to some extent forced on women.

The point you’re making is often heard and often repeated, but almost never backed up by actual research into this. Quite the opposite, really. The data do not seem to support it. 

Lots of great data at the following. I referenced only small parts most directly relevant to our current exchange here, but there’s a great deal more there. 

https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-and-is-it-real/

Quote

Some have suggested that women could narrow the wage gap if they made different educational or occupational choices. The data suggest it’s not that simple. <…> 

A gender pay gap exists both within and between industries and occupations (Goldin 2014). This means that occupations that have more women in them tend to pay less (the “between occupation” wage gap), and that within each occupation, whether male- or female-dominated, men tend to be paid more than women (the “within-occupation” gap). This within-occupation gap means that even when men and women work in the same occupation—whether as hairdressers, cosmetologists, nurses, teachers, computer engineers, mechanical engineers, or construction workers—men make more, on average, than women (CPS ORG 2011-2015).

Some have argued that the gender wage gap mostly reflects choices women make about career paths—and choices about occupation in particular. But as it turns out the within-occupation gender wage gap plays a larger role in the occupational gender wage gap than the between-occupation wage gap (the fact that both men and women in occupations with higher shares of women are paid less). 

Quote

After controlling for differences in education and preferences for full-time work, she finds that only 32 percent of the gender pay gap for college graduates would be closed by redistributing women and men across occupations. On the other hand, as much as 68 percent of the gender pay gap by occupation for college graduates is due to the within-occupation gap (Goldin 2014).14 This means if you left women in their current occupations and just closed the gaps between women and their male counterparts within occupations (e.g., if male and female civil engineers, and male and female teachers, made the same per hour), that would close a whopping 68 percent of the gap.

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

35 minutes ago, iNow said:

The point you’re making is often heard and often repeated, but almost never backed up by actual research into this. Quite the opposite, really. The data do not seem to support it. 

Lots of great data at the following. I referenced only small parts most directly relevant to our current exchange here, but there’s a great deal more there. 

https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-and-is-it-real/

 

From that link on how they justify their massaging of their the data (the raw they don't provide):

"However, the adjusted gender wage gap really only narrows the analysis to the potential role of gender discrimination along one dimension: to differential pay for equivalent work. But this simple adjustment misses all of the potential differences in opportunities for men and women that affect and constrain the choices they make before they ever bargain with an employer over a wage. While multivariate regression can be used to distill the role of discrimination in the narrowest sense, it cannot capture how discrimination affects differences in opportunity."

In a nutshell: They are ultimately blaming differences of opportunity as the main driver for the gender pay gap.

 

[iNow]

6 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

the raw they don't provide

Since you missed it:

https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-and-is-it-real/#epi-toc-44

[J.C.MacSwell]

12 minutes ago, iNow said:

Since you missed it:

https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-and-is-it-real/#epi-toc-44

"Unless otherwise specified, the EPI analyses throughout this piece use data on hourly wages of all workers, not just full-time workers. Technically, this is an adjusted gender wage gap measure because the weekly or annual gender wage gap would allow hours of work to differ. An hourly wage gap will not capture the direct effect of differences in hours or weeks worked, but it will capture the indirect effect of wage differences due to the effect of hours on hourly wages. This limited adjustment allows us to compare women’s and men’s wages without assuming that women, who still shoulder a disproportionate amount of responsibilities at home, would be able or willing to work as many hours as their male counterparts. Examining this “raw” gap, we hope to have a more thorough conversation about the ways a large basket of factors interact and create the wage gap women experience when they cash their paychecks. Of course, our answers to questions about the wage gap also draw on the work of other researchers, who may use different measures. Claudia Goldin for example uses earnings of full-time full-year workers."

[iNow]

Yes, research into jobs is hard because jobs differ and multiple variables contribute to pay. I understand you disagree  I find your disagreement to be unsupported and you now seem to be attacking the messenger instead… the messenger being one of the single best referenced sources available on this topic.

Even when controlling for those variables, females are paid less and only 32 percent of the gender pay gap would be closed by redistributing women and men across occupations. On the other hand, as much as 68 percent of the gender pay gap by occupation for is due to the within-occupation gap.

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 hours ago, iNow said:

Even when controlling for those variables, females are paid less and only 32 percent of the gender pay gap would be closed by redistributing women and men across occupations. On the other hand, as much as 68 percent of the gender pay gap by occupation for is due to the within-occupation gap.

Same occupation =/= same work or same job. So even their unproven claims don't indicate that the pay gap is from being paid less for the exact same work. It's mostly due to reduced opportunity.

You are essentially claiming that the pay gap is not mainly from reduced opportunity, but more from getting paid less even when getting the same opportunities.

None of your links support that.

[Prometheus]

I've never looked into the data myself so i thought i'd delve a little into my own profession (i'm sure there's national and professional variations). At least for UK nursing the evidence suggests that there is a gender pay gap, due to women becoming less represented in more senior roles and taking up more part-time work. Within pay scales, pro-rata pay was identical as required by law. I can imagine this generalising to at least some other professions, teaching perhaps.

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, Prometheus said:

I've never looked into the data myself so i thought i'd delve a little into my own profession (i'm sure there's national and professional variations). At least for UK nursing the evidence suggests that there is a gender pay gap, due to women becoming less represented in more senior roles and taking up more part-time work. Within pay scales, pro-rata pay was identical as required by law. I can imagine this generalising to at least some other professions, teaching perhaps.

What has 'women being misrepresented in senior roles got to do with pay equality?' Pro rata is what matters. If they are the same, the pay is the same. Same position, same pay =/= 'equivalent' job,  same pay. The latter sems to be what feminists are arguing for... which is a different tree to bark up entirely. This may or may not be true, but lets not  confuse  different arguments. My observation  seems to be that even though they are pro rata remunerated the same, they are still not happy. This is not about same job, same pay, this is something else that's not being elucidated correctly.

Edited February 10, 2022 by StringJunky

[iNow]

4 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

You are essentially claiming that the pay gap is not mainly from reduced opportunity, but more from getting paid less even when getting the same opportunities.

Close, but not entirely. I'm agreeing there are many factors involved here, including issues with opportunity. However, I'm hoping to remind us that focusing on one at the expense of another is overly simplistic and that the problem clearly persists even when equalizing opportunity... since even within the same roles and jobs the pay is STILL significantly lower (at least in the US). 

[Prometheus]

Just now, StringJunky said:

What has 'women being misrepresented in senior roles got to do with pay inequality equality?' Pro rata is what matters. If they are the same, the pay is the same. Same position, same pay =/= 'equivalent' job,  same pay. The latter sems to be what feminists are arguing for... which is a different tree to bark up entirely.

I agree pro rata is one metric. I think representation at senior levels is also a valid metric, in as far as it might indicate preferential treatment up the career ladder. Whether that is actually the case is worth investigating. That UK nursing review concluded with "The drivers for this are complex and further work is required..."

[CharonY]

39 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

I agree pro rata is one metric. I think representation at senior levels is also a valid metric, in as far as it might indicate preferential treatment up the career ladder. Whether that is actually the case is worth investigating. That UK nursing review concluded with "The drivers for this are complex and further work is required..."

There is quite some data for that out there and it is sometimes referred to as the leaky pipeline issue (my apologies if that has been mentioned before, I read this thread in bits and pieces and may have missed it). It is not necessarily only because of conscious preferential treatment, but as you mentioned there are complex contributors, including monolithic structures at the top and other systems that provide slight sieving effects on every step.

In academia this leakiness even persists in women-dominated fields. In nursing above 90% of the students are female, but on the professorial level (I could not find data separated by rank) about 18% are male. While overall pay in this area is closer to parity than in other fields, it still favours men, if only slightly. 

But as a whole the barriers to seniority (as well as certain well-paying fields) are certainly contributors to the gender pay gap and there is a huge body of literature on this topic going back decades at this point. In parallel, as mentioned earlier various studies still find (sometimes diminishing) gaps within groups. For example here:

Quote

This article measures gender pay gaps in Ontario’s public post-secondary education sector from 1996 to 2016 using the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Data. We find gaps widening among all faculty ranks. Men were paid on average 2.06%, 2.14%, and 5.26% more than their women colleagues for all employees, university teaching staff, and deans, respectively. We also conduct a Blinder- Oaxaca decomposition to measure the source of gendered salary differentials. Pay gaps persist during this time period despite controlling for the literature’s most common explanations, including the “pipeline effect.” Our results additionally imply that women’s years of experience in academia do not mitigate the observed pay gaps. Suggestions for future research include increasing the scope of our study to factor in finer details such as labour productivity.

https://id.erudit.org/iderudit/1060821ar

And this is just in academia, which is a competitive field, but at least outwardly strives to achieve equity.

[nec209]

On 2/7/2022 at 12:02 PM, iNow said:

Mostly I'm saying I don't give a shit what Peterson is saying. He's a pot stirrer trying to get attention and appeal to a very vocal minority. He's not representing actual issues that are actually problematic IMO. 

Also this:

 

 

But there seems to be large fan base for him.  Well may be some of the Proud Boys movement believe and far right believe that females have way too many rights and taking jobs from white man and females attacking white man. And this is why you have all that anti-feminism movement. But I don’t know if Peterson is saying this or some thing else. May be it is the abortion thing he is anti feminism movement.

Edited February 12, 2022 by nec209

[Alex_Krycek]

On 2/7/2022 at 12:32 AM, StringJunky said:

Like when feminists feel their 'territory' is being trodden on by trans-females.

Well, when a woman works her entire life to compete at a high level in a particular sport, and is then made immediately irrelevant by a trans athlete such as Lia Thomas, a white person claiming to be the next Jackie Robinson (yes, that was actually said by this person), I think it's understandable.  

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/592822-sixteen-penn-swimmers-say-transgender-athlete

On 2/10/2022 at 11:40 AM, iNow said:

Yes, research into jobs is hard because jobs differ and multiple variables contribute to pay. I understand you disagree  I find your disagreement to be unsupported and you now seem to be attacking the messenger instead… the messenger being one of the single best referenced sources available on this topic.

Even when controlling for those variables, females are paid less and only 32 percent of the gender pay gap would be closed by redistributing women and men across occupations. On the other hand, as much as 68 percent of the gender pay gap by occupation for is due to the within-occupation gap.

Cite data here please.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Alex_Krycek

[iNow]

8 hours ago, nec209 said:

But there seems to be large fan base for him.

And? Joe Rogan also has a large fan base. That doesn’t mean he’s correct when recommending horse dewormer for the treatment of Covid. 
 

8 hours ago, nec209 said:

this is why you have all that anti-feminism movement.

Pretty sure small penises and weak insecure minds is a better explanation. 

2 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Cite data here please.

What about the copious data I already provided in previous posts do you feel needs supplementing?

Edited February 12, 2022 by iNow

[John Cuthber]

"The feminism movement is leading to a new culture war today?"
It is hard to see how a 100 year old (and then some) movement is causing anything "new" today.
But it's easy to see how the current  crop of "famous for being famous" pundits could be stirring the pot today because they want to get paid today.

[nec209]

On 2/12/2022 at 6:53 AM, Alex_Krycek said:

Well, when a woman works her entire life to compete at a high level in a particular sport, and is then made immediately irrelevant by a trans athlete such as Lia Thomas, a white person claiming to be the next Jackie Robinson (yes, that was actually said by this person), I think it's understandable.  

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/592822-sixteen-penn-swimmers-say-transgender-athlete

Cite data here please.

So the problem conservatives have with feminism is people who go to school taking women studies they them selves the feminism cannot agree like the example you use above?

Look at some feminism who say society is set up to paint them as sex object worship by men and would like ban clothing, looks and porn that paint them has object. And yet other feminism protesting on the street almost nude all those protests on the street they had called the slut walk protests and saying men need to learn the law of rape and respect and control them selves how dare I change my looks for men who cannot control him self.

So is this one things conservatives and Peterson is getting all worked up on or is it the abortion thing of feminism.

 Many far right view abortion and LGBT attack on the church. Well Peterson says he is a centrist not left or right.

Edited February 13, 2022 by nec209

[John Cuthber]

3 hours ago, nec209 said:

Many far right view abortion and LGBT attack on the church.

Which is interesting.
They seem to forget that an answer to "what would Jesus do?" is get very angry and kick out the bankers.
The political Right wing (and that's essentially all politicians in the USA- I'm not sure about Canada) do not generally follow the views set down in the Bible.

[Ken Fabian]

Once we move into the realm where salaries become a matter for negotiation rather than a set hourly rate do women earn as much as men? It seems to be a common claim that they do not, although I don't have links to demonstrate. They also appear less likely to be employed in those senior positions - some of which will, on the face of it, be her choice, possibly in negotiation with her husband, to not pursue such careers, in favor of more traditional roles such as child raising. But some won't really be choosing freely.

I also think they don't get career advancement equality when they do choose such a career path. Some of those jobs seem to require an absolute job before family mentality and I suspect just being female leads to doubts (in predominately male selection processes) that they will in fact let someone else... care for sick kids or whatever, so the male applicants will be preferred.

[Alex_Krycek]

On 2/14/2022 at 2:53 PM, Ken Fabian said:

Once we move into the realm where salaries become a matter for negotiation rather than a set hourly rate do women earn as much as men? It seems to be a common claim that they do not, although I don't have links to demonstrate. They also appear less likely to be employed in those senior positions - some of which will, on the face of it, be her choice, possibly in negotiation with her husband, to not pursue such careers, in favor of more traditional roles such as child raising. But some won't really be choosing freely.

I also think they don't get career advancement equality when they do choose such a career path. Some of those jobs seem to require an absolute job before family mentality and I suspect just being female leads to doubts (in predominately male selection processes) that they will in fact let someone else... care for sick kids or whatever, so the male applicants will be preferred.

Yes, there are multiple variable at play.   Women tend to naturally be more Agreeable if considering the OCEAN framework. Agreeable people won't get the same results in a salary negotiation as non-agreeable people (e.g. accepting the first low ball offer, or not pushing for a raise or developing other options to leverage their position).

If we're considering the pay gap between professions, interestingly this is widest in the most egalitarian societies (such as Norway) where, given the choice, women statistically choose professions that are lower paying such as nursing, teaching, etc, or they don't work at all and choose to stay home and raise their children instead.  And yes, I used the work choose, since the evil Patriarchy didn't force them to enter professions against their will.