The True Meaning of Reincarnation

[RamaRaksha]

What Reincarnation is basically telling us is that there is only One World! This one that God made for us

God made this world, this earth, gave us this life. Life is a Gift from God and what Reincarnation is saying is that we can savor this Gift over and over again

But we understand that this life is not easy, nothing is Free, nothing is Given, we have to WORK for a living, PAY for what we eat, where we live, EARN what we desire

And this displeases many people who want the easy good life but don't want to work for it

Some become supporters of powerful men like Putin, Kim Jong-un, support him blindly, kill, rape people at his behest and enjoy a life of comfort

Others become prostitutes/gigolos/leeches/parasites - look around for a rich Sugar Daddy to GIVE them a life of ease & comfort. Now pay attention to the following - these people sing their Sugar Daddies praises, tell them they "love" them.

Sounds a bit familiar?

And it is these people that Death Cults target - we have all heard of Heaven's Gate - a Cult that promised a wonderful "life" AFTER Death, of course. Look for a sign & you see members constantly talking about signs - this sign or that, that assures a new age - new earth - new this or that but the end result is the same - a life of ease & comfort!

Gain enough members and they can call themselves Religions

I think it is against this backdrop that Hindus developed the idea of Reincarnation - Running away from REAL LIFE is not the answer. Death Cults are not the answer

There is no magic Charity Retirement Home being run by God where billions get to sit about, an idle, lazy, useless and pointless existence for eternity!

It is quite simple - Reincarnation appeals to the Strong, the Adult, the Warrior

Heaven appeals to the Weak, the child, the Coward

Guess who is winning in the 21st century?

 

 

[zapatos]

If I wanted a sermon I would go to church.

[RamaRaksha]

A different view of Reincarnation, that's all. Reason why Hinduism preaches this view

It is puzzling right? It seems almost every religion promises an endless good "life" AFTER Death. There seem to be no downside to embracing Death Over Life

And yet Hinduism says come back - is there a logical reason for them asking us to do so? I think there is

It is simply asking us to embrace Life - warts and all

This is the only game in town 

 

[iNow]

32 minutes ago, zapatos said:

If I wanted a sermon I would go to church.

Or a Trump rally

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, RamaRaksha said:

I think it is against this backdrop that Hindus developed the idea of Reincarnation

As you are on a science site I have to ask... Do you have any evidence to support this statement?

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, RamaRaksha said:

it is quite simple - Reincarnation appeals to the Strong, the Adult, the Warrior

It appeals to a lot of people for a lot of reasons.

 

1 hour ago, RamaRaksha said:

I think it is against this [we have all heard of Heaven's Gate - a Cult that promised a wonderful "life" AFTER Death, of course. Look for a sign & you see members constantly talking about signs - this sign or that, that assures a new age - new earth - new this or that but the end result is the same - a life of ease & comfort! ] backdrop that Hindus developed the idea of Reincarnation - Running away from REAL LIFE is not the answer. Death Cults are not the answer

No, they didn't have "this backdrop". The Hindus developed their religion the same way all other peoples developed their religions: from a local mythology that incorporated local experiences and history and folklore, taboo and tradition, imagery and metaphor, fears and hopes, nostalgia and yearning. 

1 hour ago, RamaRaksha said:

Running away from REAL LIFE is not the answer. Death Cults are not the answer

There was no question to answer. The Hindus, like everyone else, live their lives as well as they can - given that most of their lives a lot more difficult than yours - without judging or condemning anyone else. They hope, at the end of a difficult life, whether it's long or short, to have a rest and then give life another try and do better. That is not a death-cult; that is the ultimate perseverance.  

Edited February 15, 2022 by Peterkin

[mistermack]

23 hours ago, RamaRaksha said:

It is quite simple - Reincarnation appeals to the Strong, the Adult, the Warrior

Heaven appeals to the Weak, the child, the Coward

Guess who is winning in the 21st century?

I think you have a fundamental misundestanding of what makes a religion "win". The appeal of the message is only a small part of it. The main factor in the growth of a religion is the level of indoctrination of children. That, and the level of isolation of the children from those of other faiths. 

[Peterkin]

35 minutes ago, mistermack said:

The main factor in the growth of a religion is the level of indoctrination of children.

How many children? If not enough parents have been converted, not enough children can be indoctrinated --- worse, if the believers, adults and children alike, are a small minority in a larger population, they're more likely to be oppressed, suppressed and persecuted than to spread their religion. 

Rather more important is the power of the political and economic and military forces supporting a religion.

[mistermack]

7 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

How many children? If not enough parents have been converted, not enough children can be indoctrinated --- worse, if the believers, adults and children alike, are a small minority in a larger population, they're more likely to be oppressed, suppressed and persecuted than to spread their religion. 

Rather more important is the power of the political and economic and military forces supporting a religion.

Historically, that's all true, I'm just commenting on what's driving it in a modern fairly free society, like the one I live in. The religions with strong growth are those that heavily indoctrinate their kids, and/or send them to faith schools. 

[Peterkin]

9 minutes ago, mistermack said:

The religions with strong growth are those that heavily indoctrinate their kids, and/or send them to faith schools. 

in your country, which ones are spreading right now? (In mine, they all seem to be shrinking.)

[mistermack]

7 hours ago, Peterkin said:

in your country, which ones are spreading right now? (In mine, they all seem to be shrinking.)

Islam is by far the fastest growing religion, both in the UK and the world. A lot of the growth in the UK is down to Mulims having a much higher birth rate than the UK average, but it's also because their indoctrination of children is much more intense than, say, the Church of England. And another factor is that Muslims tend to all live in the same area, so their kids are generally mixing with other Muslims at home and at school. 

Immigration is also still playing a part. I don't have any figures, but I'm pretty certain that Muslims make up the majority of immigrants to this country, both legal and illegal. That's just the impression you get from tv interviews, but I'd be amazed if it was otherwise.

Judaism is still growing, I think, mainly on the orthodox side, as they tend to have big families, and more intensive indoctrination of children. 

I think that religions that are most intense are generally going to get more converts than the laid back ones too. The Church of England is pretty relaxed and non-fundamentalist these days, and is leaking members like a sieve. People who convert to a religion tend to go to the more intense ones. And they have the lowest number of drop-outs. 

[iNow]

https://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/
 

[Peterkin]

So, Islam is winning the 21st century. Although it's losing some adherents,  it's also converting some Christians and unaffiliated in the west. Even if the Chinese Empire makes Buddhism more popular, the Chinese secular government already recognizes the major religions and will presumably allow . 

That doesn't look very promising for reincarnation, but heaven will get a population boost in all the coming climate wars.

[Phi for All]

On 2/14/2022 at 7:12 PM, RamaRaksha said:

It is quite simple - Reincarnation appeals to the Strong, the Adult, the Warrior

Heaven appeals to the Weak, the child, the Coward

Overgeneralization is the simple part. Assertions like this need more though, otherwise you're just soapboxing. Do you have any evidence to support them?

[TheVat]

It's the doctrine of karma, not reincarnation by itself, that calls people to focus on their actions in this life.  At least that's my understanding of how transmigration is not simply a random shunt into another life.  OTOH - and here is where survey data would be helpful - it seems to me that reincarnation could also lead some to procrastinate.   So, hey, I didn't resolve my problems in this life.  No problem, I'll take care of them in the next one. I've got eons to work them out!

What would be useful would be a large survey where you compared reincarnationists with heaven-ists on various metrics of success, life satisfaction, relationship happiness, feelings about death, etc.  Though there would be a big bundle of other confounding cultural and socioeconomic factors to deal with - you might just get a big data mess.  

 

[Agent Smith]

The riddle of reincarnation:

1. I have $100 in this life.

2. I save it for my next life.

3. Go to step 1

I can never spend my $100.

🤭

 

 

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

OTOH - and here is where survey data would be helpful - it seems to me that reincarnation could also lead some to procrastinate.   

As I understand it (imperfectly), it's not a matter of working out problems. The problems you have to deal with in one lifetime end with that life - from a karma perspective, they're as trivial as they are ephemeral. What matters is how you relate to the world, how you treat other humans, other life-forms; how you bear up under hardship; whether you grow or shrink spiritually. If you put off making up for wrongs you did to others, your soul is smaller at the end than it was at birth, so you return as a humbler, less powerful being and have to work your back up again to autonomous human. You should gain in enlightenment with each successful life, be less and less concerned with worldly possessions and status, until you attain a pure spiritual state. 

It's not all of a piece, though, the doctrine of transmigration; there are different versions in several cultures. https://www.britannica.com/topic/reincarnation

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Peterkin
not

[mistermack]

If I have no memory or physical features of the creature that I am supposed to have been reborn from, then that person or creature was simply something else. 

In a way, I, at the age of five, was someone else entirely. The link to me, apart from the genes, is very tenuous. 

Was Adolf Hitler the same person as the one he became, as a newborn bably? We are a slightly different person every day. To claim that you had a previous life, you have to define what you are, and that is very changeable.

The notion of reincarnation can't hold up, without some kind of immortal soul, and as far as I'm concerned, if I have a soul, lurking around and saying nothing, it's not what I consider to be me. If it exists, it's some kind of alien, and definitely not me. 

[Peterkin]

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

In a way, I, at the age of five, was someone else entirely. The link to me, apart from the genes, is very tenuous.

That's kind of how the Hindu sages must have viewed the evolution of a soul - on a longer time-scale than we're accustomed to considering.  You don't need the memory of being someone or something else: as long as the experience has cleansed your spirit of an earlier transgression, you're a little ahead, a little more evolved than the last time you started a new cycle. So you should be able to do better, be better, die better, become something better and then move up.

 

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

Was Adolf Hitler the same person as the one he became, as a newborn bably

What difference does that make at what stage in life he made the bad decisions, performed the wrong acts? He's probably still slogging through his third of fourth try at being a decent sea-cucumber.

 

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

The notion of reincarnation can't hold up, without some kind of immortal soul,

No, it's pretty much predicated on that concept.

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

if I have a soul, lurking around and saying nothing, it's not what I consider to be me. If it exists, it's some kind of alien, and definitely not me. 

Looks like you'll make a mediocre mussel. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Peterkin

[mistermack]

If my mother is now a sow, acting as a piglet producer in a bacon factory, I might be a cannibal of my own siblings. It's enough to make you go veggie. 

[Peterkin]

4 minutes ago, mistermack said:

It's enough to make you go veggie. 

They are. (You must have a reason - which I do not wish to know - for thinking that your mother did so much wrong in the life she shared with you.)

[mistermack]

I can't work out the maths. There are more billions of chickens and pigs and cattle than people. Were they all bad people or do some animals have souls and others don't? 

I suppose the Hindu gods move in mysterious ways too. 

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

I can't work out the maths. There are more billions of chickens and pigs and cattle than people. Were they all bad people or do some animals have souls and others don't? 

Who says there is a finite number of souls in the world, one to a customer? You might cohabit; some creatures may not yet have evolved to the point of having a soul. Or maybe at the bottom of the ladder, billions of new tiny bacterial souls are created every second; meanwhile, species are going extinct and their souls need new homes. Some of the pigs and chickens, zebras and rhinos have moved up; some of the humans have moved down, depending on how they lived their lives. At the top, a few, a very few exceptionally accomplished human souls are released from karmic bondage and depart the life-cycle. There is plenty of room for growth and proliferation. The math works itself out and needs no help from us.  

All gods move in mysterious ways, but the Hindu ones left a lot of clues for their people.

It's okay to ignore an idea you don't find interesting.  It's okay to reject an idea in which you see no merit. Both can be done with a minimum of effort.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Peterkin

[RamaRaksha]

On 2/14/2022 at 9:46 PM, zapatos said:

As you are on a science site I have to ask... Do you have any evidence to support this statement?

Well we do know that there is zero to nil evidence of God or Heaven or Hell

Reincarnation, actually can be proved or disproved. It seems as little children we do remember our past lives. What we need are unbiased follow-ups - checking the kid's stories - the dates, the incidents - as time goes by we will have better dates to check

Problem is of course the bias - the world is dominated by Christians and Muslims and they do not look upon Reincarnation with favor

On 2/16/2022 at 7:47 PM, mistermack said:

I can't work out the maths. There are more billions of chickens and pigs and cattle than people. Were they all bad people or do some animals have souls and others don't? 

I suppose the Hindu gods move in mysterious ways too. 

The point of my post was to change our way of thinking about these ideas - Reincarnation is for those who choose REAL LIFE - Life as we know it

For those who say there is only One world, This one

To your question - in Hinduism God is a Parent, a Teacher - Parents, Teachers do not punish - they teach, they encourage

One is born in a lower life form not because they are being punished but because they CHOSE THAT LIFE! 

Life as a human being is harsh, the life that we have now no one GIVES us anything. We have to WORK for a living, PAY for what we eat, where we live, EARN what we desire

Quite a lot of people give up - some become supporters of Dictators like Putin, Saddam - do his bidding & live a good life

Others become prostitutes/gigolos/leeches/parasites - look around for a rich Sugar Daddy, sing his praises, tell him they "love" him and hope for a life of ease & comfort

And it is these people that Death Cults target - easy lazy living in the sky, all one has to do is convert, sing their "God's" praises, tell him they "love" him and it is easy living for eternity!

Amazing, but it works even against the best of brains!

Anyway, Hinduism says such Sugar Daddy lands and Sugar Daddy Gods do not exist. But God is not cruel - such a life of a shameless moocher is what they want, they will get it

Do you see a Dog? Fed, protected, sheltered & cared for - it lays about all day! No work, no worries! A sheltered dependent it's entire life!

That is where these people will end up - remember, it is NOT A PUNISHMENT - it is the life they willingly chose! of their own free will!

On 2/16/2022 at 9:03 AM, TheVat said:

It's the doctrine of karma, not reincarnation by itself, that calls people to focus on their actions in this life.  At least that's my understanding of how transmigration is not simply a random shunt into another life.  OTOH - and here is where survey data would be helpful - it seems to me that reincarnation could also lead some to procrastinate.   So, hey, I didn't resolve my problems in this life.  No problem, I'll take care of them in the next one. I've got eons to work them out!

What would be useful would be a large survey where you compared reincarnationists with heaven-ists on various metrics of success, life satisfaction, relationship happiness, feelings about death, etc.  Though there would be a big bundle of other confounding cultural and socioeconomic factors to deal with - you might just get a big data mess.  

 

That's like saying a batter can take it easy the first time at bat, he is going to get another shot

And one of the things about Reincarnation that almost EVERYONE brings up is - don't we lose our memories of our past life? Yes we do, so your logic of delaying something for the next life doesn't hold - you are a totally different person - maybe born in the wrong continent, a different gender, who knows maybe a different planet!

On 2/14/2022 at 10:07 PM, Peterkin said:

It appeals to a lot of people for a lot of reasons.

 

No, they didn't have "this backdrop". The Hindus developed their religion the same way all other peoples developed their religions: from a local mythology that incorporated local experiences and history and folklore, taboo and tradition, imagery and metaphor, fears and hopes, nostalgia and yearning. 

 

Very, very few religions preach Reincarnation - Hinduism, Sikhism to my knowledge. The Buddha originally did not believe in Reincarnation. Mahayana Buddhists came up with the concept of Bodhisattva - someone who eschews heaven to come back to earth - much later, once they finally understood why Hindus were preaching Reincarnation

Tell me, when compared to Heaven, why would anyone choose Reincarnation?

In Heaven one gets the good life - free food, shelter(a mansion), protected and cared for - not one theist ever mentions any WORK being done in Heaven. Everyone just expects the lazy good life with God picking up the bill. Billions get to just sit about doing nothing - an idle, lazy, useless and pointless existence for eternity!

Totally ridiculous and makes no sense - but there it is - even the best of minds fall for these promises of the easy good life obtained the easy lazy way

Come back to earth? Where we have to WORK for a living, PAY for what we eat, where we live, EARN what we desire! And then we have the problems of life - poverty, climate change, covid19, discrimination, drugs, Dictators, health issues, job losses......the list is endless!

It is like 9/11 happened and you are getting in your car and getting the hell out of downtown NY(Heaven) whereas Firefighters, Cops are rushing the opposite way (Reincarnation)

It is not for everyone - one needs to be Strong, self-reliant, principled with a work ethic. 

ALL religions arose from the conditions of life that they faced. It is quite clear that the Christian/Islamic God is none other than their local King/Dictator - "Believe in me, support me & I will reward(Heaven)/Punish(Hell) accordingly"

Simple, primitive ideas of God from simple, primitive people

But people love the idea of Heaven - an endless life of ease & comfort. 

Hindus viewed such ideas as a fantasy - one can have fantasies but one can't live in them, one can only live in the REAL WORLD - hence Reincarnation

 

 

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, RamaRaksha said:

It seems as little children we do remember our past lives.

Does it? Have you any documentation?

 

1 hour ago, RamaRaksha said:

Very, very few religions preach Reincarnation - Hinduism, Sikhism to my knowledge.

Quote

Among the ancient Greeks, the Orphic mystery religion held that a preexistent soul survives bodily death and is later reincarnated in a human or other mammalian body, eventually receiving release from the cycle of birth and death and regaining its former pure state. Plato, in the 5th–4th century bce, believed in an immortal soul that participates in frequent incarnations.

Quote

In many local religions, belief in multiple souls is common. The soul is frequently viewed as capable of leaving the body through the mouth or the nostrils and of being reborn, for example, as a bird, a butterfly, or an insect. The Venda of southern Africa believe that, when a person dies, the soul stays near the grave for a short time and then seeks a new resting place or another body—human, mammalian, or reptilian.

Not so rare as all that, not restricted to India, and there are different versions. This is an idea entertained by people in very different parts of the world and cultures, for quite a long time.

 

1 hour ago, RamaRaksha said:

Tell me, when compared to Heaven, why would anyone choose Reincarnation?

Because they loved Earth and some people on Earth. Because they wanted to see and participate in what happens next. Because they enjoyed living or liked a new challenge. Because they wanted another chance to do thing better. (Not because they're warriors... of course, i have no idea why anyone would choose to be warrior.)

 

1 hour ago, RamaRaksha said:

In Heaven one gets the good life - free food, shelter(a mansion), protected and cared for

They don't need food and shelter and protection anymore. For a lot of people who had a crappy deal in this life, just not having to be afraid, not having to go hungry, not being cold and wet and in pain and oppressed anymore is more than reason enough to desire heaven. That's why heaven was invented in the first place: so many people were made miserable by other people. That's also why reincarnation was invented.

 

1 hour ago, RamaRaksha said:

It is not for everyone - one needs to be Strong, self-reliant, principled with a work ethic. 

IOW a republican flunky 

and adjectives are not normally capitalized