The True Meaning of Reincarnation

[RamaRaksha]

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

And Bugs Bunny says what’s up doc. Until you move your fiction into the realm of evidence backed nonfiction, nobody here cares. 

Please speak for yourself

And yes there are threads on Multiverse, String theory etc - none of which is backed by evidence

And let me repeat again - Reincarnation is the idea that there is ONLY ONE WORLD! THIS ONE! 

It was developed as a counter to this idea of Heaven - ancient Hindus saw it as cowardice - We know of Death Cults like Heaven's Gate - Kill ourselves, we get to travel in alien ships across the galaxy

Assume one of your kids or loved ones starts talking of ending his life so as to spend an eternity in this wonderful land that is promised him - no more work, no more worries - no more worrying about climate change, covid19, poverty, discrimination, drug wars, dictators like Putin(I am sure you are keeping up with all the bad news on Ukraine), health issues, job losses & so many more. A nice Sugar Daddy magic being will keep him in cozy comfort for eternity!

Would you say, "How wonderful! Can I join you?"

Or be shocked and angered? 

And it is against this backdrop that Reincarnation was developed

I just got an idea - if a moderator is reading this - please see the highlighted in bold words - can I make that a thread? What would someone's reaction be upon hearing those words? Or does it fall under attacking religion again?

 

[Peterkin]

44 minutes ago, RamaRaksha said:

Life is a Gift!

From whom? For whom?

50 minutes ago, RamaRaksha said:

It is not a trap

How callously clueless does one need to be not to see how false that claim always has been for how many of their fellow creatures? 

45 minutes ago, RamaRaksha said:

second there is no magic Retirement Home in the sky being run by a Nanny God

If there is no god, who is handing out gifts of of life? 

53 minutes ago, RamaRaksha said:

letting billions just sit around doing nothing for eternity!

You seem to have a restless army of ants in your ... bonnet... about dead people sitting around idle, but you never explain your objection to the idea, or what they ought to be doing instead. 

54 minutes ago, RamaRaksha said:

no one would choose Death over life

In this, too, you are mistaken.

[Genady]

Did you know that there is no heaven and hell in the orthodox Judaism, no life after death, God is not a pleasant character, and he doesn't care if you believe in him or not?

[RamaRaksha]

6 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Rama, your repeated posts seem to be about a totally different idea of reincarnation from the meaning that I was holding. You made me look it up, because I thought maybe I had it wrong. BUT, the wikipedia page has it just as I remembered. This is from the top :               

Reincarnation, also known as rebirth or transmigration, is the philosophical or religious concept that the non-physical essence of a living being begins a new life in a different physical form or body after biological death.^[1][2]                       

Somebody's got it wrong, and it appears to be you. What is a non-physical essence? Obviously, a spirit. What is the notion of a new life, but a comfort blanket to ward off the fear of real death. ( ie, ceasing to exist ). You keep saying that there is only one world. But gloss over countless new lives that the notion of reincarnation promises. We all have that daydream, to live again and do it all so much better next time. That's just human wishful dreaming, being worked up into religious teaching. 

One of the jokes that I keep making is that when it comes to religion we seem to be like Chimps teaching modern Humans - we know how ridiculous that sounds

I want to scream whenever someone says, "What does it say in the Scripture?" - I feel like grabbing that person by the neck, shaking him and saying, "this scripture is nothing but ideas of people just like you and me, but living a long time ago. No, back then there were no Gods running around. They did not have any magic insight. That is why they thought the sun circled the earth. Had no clue about Evolution, the age of the earth or the universe"

These people were not fools - they simply wrote down what they knew, which was not much

We seem to be the fools - blindly reading something in a book and nodding our heads, unable and unwilling to accept new ideas

A bunch of white guys got together and came up with these meanings in dictionaries or wiki - they are subject to change as people change

We ARE allowed to change these things - they are not set in stone - in fact, many meanings are changed over time

The Wikipedia page you referenced - I did try to change it - but someone keeps deleting my change

"gloss over countless new lives that the notion of reincarnation promises" - Reincarnation was developed as a counter to the idea of Heaven - ancient Hindus saw such a notion as cowardice, the weak running away from REAL LIFE!

Think of this logically - your kid or loved one says to you - I am thinking of joining this organization that says after Death we will get to travel the galaxy in space ships - that is what Heaven's Gate, the Death Cult, promises

No more work, no more worries - just enjoy the easy lazy life forever!

What would your reaction be? "how wonderful! can I join?" or "are you nuts?'

It is against this backdrop that Reincarnation is to be seen. Of course they had to say we keep coming back

 

 

3 minutes ago, Genady said:

Did you know that there is no heaven and hell in the orthodox Judaism, no life after death, God is not a pleasant character, and he doesn't care if you believe in him or not?

Thank you - I heard but didn't know for sure

To me Judaism does not belong with Christianity & Islam - simple primitive Master/Slave religions - obey the master & be rewarded - there is not much there

Judaism, to me, with its multiple prophets is a Teacher/Student faith - and its stress on education is relevant here

For me Hinduism, Buddhism are Teacher/Student faiths - many do not understand that our Gods are our Teachers

Judaism belongs with Hinduism and Buddhism

7 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

From whom? For whom?

How callously clueless does one need to be not to see how false that claim always has been for how many of their fellow creatures? 

If there is no god, who is handing out gifts of of life? 

You seem to have a restless army of ants in your ... bonnet... about dead people sitting around idle, but you never explain your objection to the idea, or what they ought to be doing instead. 

In this, too, you are mistaken.

Have you not heard new parents saying their child is a Gift?

Have you not heard philosophers say Life is a Gift? The world we inhabit is a wonder? To be cherished?

Have you heard of Buddhism that says there is no God? Why is there any need for a magic controller? We are souls who decided on being born. We have free will - if life is seen as a burden, we are free to embrace Death, Eternal Death

"about dead people sitting around idle, but you never explain your objection to the idea, or what they ought to be doing instead" - because that runs counter to the life that we have now - here you learn that no one GIVES you anything, nothing is FREE, you HAVE to WORK to make a honest living, PAY for what you eat, where you live, EARN what you desire

Heaven runs counter to all the laws of life that ALL creatures on earth follow 

Heaven is unnatural, it makes no sense, it is but a fantasy of the weak, the lazy

We have them down here - supporters of brutal dictators like Putin, Saddam - sing their praises, support them unconditionally and live the good life

Prostitutes/gigolos/leeches/parasites use the same method - find a rich Sugar Daddy, sing his praises, tell him they "love" him and hope for a life of ease & comfort

That is the mentality that Death Cults and religions exploit - the reason why the likes of Madoff are so successful - greed!

Greed for the easy living the easy lazy way

 

[iNow]

26 minutes ago, RamaRaksha said:

Reincarnation is the idea that there is ONLY ONE WORLD! THIS ONE! 

Simply repeating an invalid claim doesn’t magically render it true. 

This point persists even if you capitalize it and put a bunch of exclamation points.

26 minutes ago, RamaRaksha said:

Assume one of your kids or loved ones starts talking of ending his life so as to spend an eternity in this wonderful land that is promised him - no more work, no more worries - no more worrying about climate change, covid19, poverty, discrimination, drug wars, dictators like Putin(I am sure you are keeping up with all the bad news on Ukraine), health issues, job losses & so many more. A nice Sugar Daddy magic being will keep him in cozy comfort for eternity!

Would you say, "How wonderful! Can I join you?"

Or be shocked and angered? 

False dichotomy. I’d do neither. I’d instead engage in a discussion with my child to understand what’s bringing them pain in this world and I’d explore with them ways to alleviate it that don’t involve self-inflicted death. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by iNow

[Peterkin]

*-------*

done

Edited February 22, 2022 by Peterkin

[beecee]

5 hours ago, RamaRaksha said:

Please speak for yourself

And yes there are threads on Multiverse, String theory etc - none of which is backed by evidence

And we have no evidence whatsoever for any diety, soul,  life after death, or anything paranormal and/or supernatural. 

we do though have evidence that life as we know it, is a result of evolution, just as  we have evidence that our universe/space/time evolved 13.83 billion years ago.

[iNow]

On 2/18/2022 at 7:35 PM, TheVat said:

Well, you need the liver to live.  Hence the name.

Guess we’d better start praying for a 12 car pileup on the turnpike because we’re not exactly swimming in livers over here. 

[Peterkin]

Better limit your alcohol intake - not everyone on the turnpike is a donor. 

[iNow]

9 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Better limit your alcohol intake - not everyone on the turnpike is a donor. 

It was a reference to a show TheVat had referenced. This was the next line from Cutty. It was serendipitous bc I had just watched it. 

Inside jokes on text based media are hard for those outside.  

[Peterkin]

Well, someone has to speak for the outsiders.

[Agent Smith]

Reincarnation isn't an exclusively Eastern (Hindu/Buddhist/etc.) idea. Pythagoras was supposed to have espoused the transmigration of souls, known to the Greeks as metempsychosis. A story goes that Pythagoras intervened a person severely beating a dog because he recognized a long-dead friend in the dog's yelps. Pythagoras was a strict vegan.

It gets better as Empedocles went further and included plants too as legitimate homes for souls.

Quote

"I was once in the past a boy, once a girl, once a tree

Once too a bird, and once a silent fish in the sea" - Empedocles

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Agent Smith

[dimreepr]

22 hours ago, Agent Smith said:

Reincarnation isn't an exclusively Eastern (Hindu/Buddhist/etc.) idea.

I think all religions touch on the idea of karma, do bad thing's and you'll damage your soul and if you damage your soul you'll regret it, if not in this life then in the next; God doesn't have to be a good guy, he just has to punish the guilty.

If you believe in karma (and I think it's real), it's much easier to forgive "the bad man" because I know he will suffer, even if I can't see it; that's my revenge...

 

[Agent Smith]

That all religions have a reincarnation chapter is news to me. Perhaps I didn't get the memo or, as is the usual, I'm the last one to find out. 😄 (How come the emojis on this forum are black and white?).

Buddhism is famous for its reincarnating high lamas, but if you ask a Buddhist scholar about the subject, their reply is rather cryptic: they don't believe that there is an imperishable soul that transmigrates from one body to another; au contraire, the karmic debt/fortune is carried over to another person who is then treated/considered as the reincarnation of the dead person to whom the karmic debt/fortune belongs to. Reminds of how debts pass down from father to children back in the good old days and, in some places, even now! 😰

[Cognizant]

there's a thing I cannot understand about reincarnation. How does the quantity of people and arrogant street pidgeons always multiply if the soul always reincarnates. Th quantity should remain the same, in theory...

[Doctor Derp]

People have a tendency to go overboard with topics like reincarnation.

Nature is defined by a cycle where life and living things are constantly recycled, to produce new life.

If people have a mystical energy force which might be labeled a soul or spirit. It would also be recycled to produce new souls/spirits.

That it all that reincarnation means. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Doctor Derp

[Peterkin]

On 4/14/2022 at 1:38 PM, Cognizant said:

there's a thing I cannot understand about reincarnation. How does the quantity of people and arrogant street pidgeons always multiply if the soul always reincarnates. Th quantity should remain the same, in theory...

Have you counted the ants? There are lots now, but there were way more - the ant are working their way up the evolutionary chain. 

Or maybe a lot of pigeons and humans have no souls.

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, Doctor Derp said:

Nature is defined by a cycle where life and living things are constantly recycled, to produce new life.

 

No, it isn't. I've never seen that definition, and since life is such a small part of nature it seems unlikely.

2 hours ago, Doctor Derp said:

If people have a mystical energy force which might be labeled a soul or spirit. It would also be recycled to produce new souls/spirits.

 

If you are going to make such a claim without providing any evidence, please at least provide your reasoning.

[Doctor Derp]

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

No, it isn't. I've never seen that definition, and since life is such a small part of nature it seems unlikely.

If you are going to make such a claim without providing any evidence, please at least provide your reasoning.

 

The definition I used is basic science.

Organic crop fertilizer is dead and decaying plant and animal matter. Dead organic matter is recycled to provide life to new plants and crops.

Do you need evidence for a point so basic and fundamental that it doesn't amount to much more than saying "water is wet".

[zapatos]

10 hours ago, Doctor Derp said:

The definition I used is basic science.

 

Good. Then please humor me and provide a scientific citation that says 

"Nature is defined by a cycle where life and living things are constantly recycled, to produce new life."

[TheVat]

And what does the recycling of organic material through an ecosystem have to with a metaphysical theory of spiritual passage?  Aside from it being an interesting metaphor, the cycling of carbon and assorted minerals doesn't point to the existence of some ethereal plane of being.  The mere fact that some of my phosphorus (if my ashes are scattered) will be absorbed by plant roots and eaten by a grazing herbivore and incorporated into its skeleton doesn't mean my consciousness will persist into some other earthly life.  

The Eastern theory of transmigration of souls is predicated on a sophisticated system of religious moral laws and related duties ("dharma") and a long series of lives in which many lessons are learned and past actions accounted for (karmic debt).  It's a great deal more than "recycling" some "mystical energy force" through the breakdown of corpses.  The only science based approach I know of is the investigation of so-called past life memories in order to test a pretty extraordinary claim.  To date, those investigations have been beset with procedural errors and inability to rule out other explanations of a more prosaic nature.  

 

ETA: and now I see this is the thread with the reincarnation chat we had in February, with Rama denouncing a Sugar Daddy god in the sky and Eternal Rest Home afterlives.  Ha, fun times.  

[dimreepr]

56 minutes ago, TheVat said:

ETA: and now I see this is the thread with the reincarnation chat we had in February, with Rama denouncing a Sugar Daddy god in the sky and Eternal Rest Home afterlives.  Ha, fun times.

Indeed, it's ironic here, how many threads the doc has resurrected recently...