The tyranny of fear.

[dimreepr]

Is apathy the answer?

I'm not talking about political apathy; although in my lifetime I've only voted once (against Boris), because before him whoever I voted for I always got 'the government', which is basically my point; only fear what immediately and really threatens your future.

Obviously the 24 hour news culture isn't helpful, because the only good news they can muster, tends to be added on to the end and treated as a joke.

[Peterkin]

Well, he's one to talk! The man who terrorized two continents, razed 3 cities of civilizations more advanced than his own, devastated another 70, assassinated rivals, slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians, committed half a dozen genocides, enslaved, displaced and impoverished  huge swatches of population that were never a threat to him. 

Yeah, apathy is the answer to that, just as it is to Putin.

[dimreepr]

12 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Yeah, apathy is the answer to that, just as it is to Putin.

Isn't Putin acting out of fear?

[Genady]

Isn't a social disaster just another natural disaster akin earthquake, flood, meteor strike, etc.? Why would it require a different response?

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, Genady said:

Isn't a social disaster just another natural disaster akin earthquake, flood, meteor strike, etc.? Why would it require a different response?

It doesn't... 

We either survive it or we don't 

[Peterkin]

42 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Isn't Putin acting out of fear?

I have no frickin' idea why Putin - or any other megalomaniac - does anything. But then, I've recently been informed I have no sense of humour, which may account for my incomprehension of massacre. 

35 minutes ago, Genady said:

Isn't a social disaster just another natural disaster akin earthquake, flood, meteor strike, etc.?

You mean, what we do ourselves is as inevitable as geology? No will, no intelligence - just physics?

 

36 minutes ago, Genady said:

Why would it require a different response?

If the proposition is true, the question is moot: our response to what we do is as inevitable and uncontrollable as the event itself.

[Genady]

6 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I have no frickin' idea why Putin - or any other megalomaniac - does anything. But then, I've recently been informed I have no sense of humour, which may account for my incomprehension of massacre. 

You mean, what we do ourselves is as inevitable as geology? No will, no intelligence - just physics?

 

If the proposition is true, the question is moot: our response to what we do is as inevitable and uncontrollable as the event itself.

Why "inevitable" and "uncontrollable"? We can take measures to protect against or prevent / minimize effects of natural disasters.

[Peterkin]

12 minutes ago, Genady said:

We can take measures to protect against or prevent / minimize effects of natural disasters.

I see. Okay, then, what measures are appropriate against the coming of an Alexander? The Persians had a largish standing army; so did the Egyptians, yet both nations were devastated. Ukraine had an army and could see Russia looming - and yet there they go, dying by the thousands, as usual.

If human madness indeed a force of nature, there is no possible safeguard against it and no place for humans to hide from it.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

If human madness indeed a force of nature, there is no possible safeguard against it and no place for humans to hide from it.

We could hide from it...

If we lie to ourselves.

[Genady]

10 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

If human madness indeed a force of nature, there is no possible safeguard against it and no place for humans to hide from it.

What makes you think so?

[MigL]

Somewhat off topic, but ...

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

although in my lifetime I've only voted once (against Boris),

Makes one wonder why you complain about politics and politicians, when you can't be bothered to help weed-out the bad ones, and encourage the good ones, with your vote.

[dimreepr]

18 minutes ago, MigL said:

Makes one wonder why you complain about politics and politicians,

I'm not, just asking why...

 

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

We could hide from it...

If we lie to ourselves.

And that has worked... when?

1 hour ago, Genady said:

What makes you think so?

What makes me think that if we can't control the action, we also can't control the reaction? Just a hunch.

[Genady]

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

What makes me think that if we can't control the action, we also can't control the reaction? Just a hunch.

Just a mistake.

[joigus]

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Well, he's one to talk! The man who terrorized two continents, razed 3 cities of civilizations more advanced than his own, devastated another 70, assassinated rivals, slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians, committed half a dozen genocides, enslaved, displaced and impoverished  huge swatches of population that were never a threat to him. 

Yeah, apathy is the answer to that, just as it is to Putin.

Agreed.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

Just a mistake.

Then please explain the flaw in my reasoning.

P1. social disaster [is] just another natural disaster akin earthquake, flood, meteor strike, etc

P2. Earthquakes, meteor strikes and natural floods are caused by forces beyond human control. 

C. Humans cannot control the natural forces that cause natural disasters. 

P1. Social disasters are natural disasters.

P2. Social disasters manifest as human actions.

C. Humans cannot control human actions.

P1. Human action is required to take measures to protect against or prevent / minimize effects of natural disasters. 

P2. Humans cannot control the human actions that cause social disaster.

C. Humans cannot take effective measures against their own actions.

Evidence: Human History - nationalism, imperialism, religious zeal, oppression, crime, famine, pandemic, environmental degradation, cyclic economic collapse, war and climate change

 

[Genady]

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

Then please explain the flaw in my reasoning.

P1. social disaster [is] just another natural disaster akin earthquake, flood, meteor strike, etc

P2. Earthquakes, meteor strikes and natural floods are caused by forces beyond human control. 

C. Humans cannot control the natural forces that cause natural disasters. 

P1. Social disasters are natural disasters.

P2. Social disasters manifest as human actions.

C. Humans cannot control human actions.

P1. Human action is required to take measures to protect against or prevent / minimize effects of natural disasters. 

P2. Humans cannot control the human actions that cause social disaster.

C. Humans cannot take effective measures against their own actions.

Evidence: Human History - nationalism, imperialism, religious zeal, oppression, crime, famine, pandemic, environmental degradation, cyclic economic collapse, war and climate change

 

The first P2 is wrong. Specifically the phrase, "forces beyond human control." There are various degrees of human control of various forces and they (the degrees) are evolving. 

The evidence has been cherry-picked and doesn't represent the whole picture. Plus, the whole picture is evolving.

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, Genady said:

Specifically the phrase, "forces beyond human control."

Humans can now control geology and cosmology? That's very frightening news, given that humans can't seem to control their own greed, short-sightedness and power-lust.

2 hours ago, Genady said:

Plus, the whole picture is evolving.

I guess hope does spring eternal.

Quote

The evidence has been cherry-picked and doesn't represent the whole picture.

It doesn't show the whole picture of man-made social disasters? You may be right. I left out slavery, cultural genocide, child abuse, systemic discrimination, maybe a couple more. I suppose it's just too large a picture to fit into such a small frame. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Peterkin

[Genady]

19 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Humans can now control geology and cosmology? That's very frightening news, given that humans can't seem to control their own greed, short-sightedness and power-lust.

I guess hope does spring eternal.

- No need to control geology and cosmology to control forces.

- The evolution is not about hope but rather about some evidence becoming irrelevant.

P.S. I am a human and I can control my greed, short-sightedness and power-lust.

[exchemist]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Is apathy the answer?

I'm not talking about political apathy; although in my lifetime I've only voted once (against Boris), because before him whoever I voted for I always got 'the government', which is basically my point; only fear what immediately and really threatens your future.

Obviously the 24 hour news culture isn't helpful, because the only good news they can muster, tends to be added on to the end and treated as a joke.

How can you have voted only once if, before you voted against Bozo, you complain that every time you voted you got "the government? 

[iNow]

25 minutes ago, Genady said:

P.S. I am a human and I can control my greed, short-sightedness and power-lust.

You can control your response to those urges, but not the urges themselves /pedantic /topic-derail

[Genady]

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

You can control your response to those urges, but not the urges themselves /pedantic /topic-derail

Yes (/ yes  )

[Peterkin]

55 minutes ago, Genady said:

P.S. I am a human and I can control my greed, short-sightedness and power-lust.

In that case, any disasters you may cause are within your power to prevent. 

If that ability is projected onto other people, then they, too, have the power to prevent any disasters they might cause.

If that ability is projected onto large collectives of humans, then they could all control the forces that cause social disaster; therefore social disasters are not  caused in the same way that earthquakes, meteor strikes and  natural floods are cause - by the unconscious, uncontrolled forces of physics.

[Genady]

43 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

In that case, any disasters you may cause are within your power to prevent. 

If that ability is projected onto other people, then they, too, have the power to prevent any disasters they might cause.

If that ability is projected onto large collectives of humans, then they could all control the forces that cause social disaster; therefore social disasters are not  caused in the same way that earthquakes, meteor strikes and  natural floods are cause - by the unconscious, uncontrolled forces of physics.

Yes, however since not all people can control these forces, to me (as an example) they are just an external destructive force that I need to deal with. A tsunami in slow motion.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Genady

[Peterkin]

12 minutes ago, Genady said:

Yes, however since not all people can control these forces, to me (as an example) they are just an external destructive force that I need to deal with. A tsunami in slow motion.

That's not about causation; that's about personal  POV. The cumulative actions of masses of people cause social disaster, which then affect individuals variously.

Also, the causes, origins and development of social disasters can be plotted in retrospect, and to a some extent, depending on the point in their development that the data is collected, social disasters that are about to take place can be predicted. In theory, collective reaction could prevent, mitigate or reverse them.