Hijack from War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[mistermack]

Yeh, but it's one law for the rich, and another for the poor. 😄

Roman Abramovitch came to the UK, bought Chelsea Football Club, spent billions building it up into the top club in the whole world, and they jump on his assets without even trial.  

Meanwhile, people come from the gutter in Somalia, Eritrea and Lithuania, bring nothing with them, and they rape, rob and murder, and we shower them with lawyers, psychiatrists and benfits. 

It's always the poor what gets the gravy, and the rich what gets the blame ! 

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Yeh, but it's one law for the rich, and another for the poor. 😄

Roman Abramovitch came to the UK, bought Chelsea Football Club, spent billions building it up into the top club in the whole world, and they jump on his assets without even trial.  

Meanwhile, people come from the gutter in Somalia, Eritrea and Lithuania, bring nothing with them, and they rape, rob and murder, and we shower them with lawyers, psychiatrists and benfits. 

It's always the poor what gets the gravy, and the rich what gets the blame ! 

I think you meant to post this in a different thead.

[dimreepr]

10 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Yeh, but it's one law for the rich, and another for the poor. 😄

It's one law for everyone, if you read it right...

[MigL]

... and Mistermack might have it backwards.

The rich get the gravy and avoid incarceration; the poor get the blame and go to jail.

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

... and Mistermack might have it backwards.

The rich get the gravy and avoid incarceration; the poor get the blame and go to jail.

Knock knock..      Hello!  . . .  Hello . . .            

Is there anyone out there with a sense of irony, or the slightest sense of humour?          Apparently not. 

Here is the kind of thing that the western media will not allow you to see, if they can help it. They are keeping you nicely fed on spin :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Meanwhile, people come from the gutter in Somalia, Eritrea and Lithuania, bring nothing with them, and they rape, rob and murder, and we shower them with lawyers, psychiatrists and benfits. 

!

Moderator Note

If you are going to make such claims, you absolutely need to back them up. Because without supporting evidence, this is a violation of rule 2.1, specifically Slurs or prejudice against any group of people (or person) are prohibited.

(In the US, undocumented immigrants are found to be more law-abiding than citizens, for example

https://news.wisc.edu/undocumented-immigrants-far-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-in-u-s-than-citizens/ )

 

[mistermack]

8 minutes ago, swansont said:

If you are going to make such claims,

I never mentioned Texas. If you look back, you'll see I spoke about the UK and Roman Abramovitch. 

Texas deports law-breaking immigrants. The UK deports virtually nobody, and takes years over it. If you want to criticise such claims, do get it right. 

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/jul/22/murder-snatch-beshenivsky-pc   

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9501233/bulgarian-romanian-dipper-gangs-pickpocketing/   

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7668605/Woman-raped-Somali-migrant-tells-anguish-UK.html

[MSC]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Knock knock..      Hello!  . . .  Hello . . .            

Is there anyone out there with a sense of irony, or the slightest sense of humour?          Apparently not. 

Here is the kind of thing that the western media will not allow you to see, if they can help it. They are keeping you nicely fed on spin :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU

 

What is this thread about exactly? What is it you want us to discuss here? Is it class or something else involving Russia and Nato which could still be shared within the main thread?

Why the hijack basically?

[mistermack]

56 minutes ago, MSC said:

Why the hijack basically?

No hijack intended. I was replying to a post about the confiscation of Oligarch's assets, citing the example of Roman Abramovitch. 

I made the mistake of putting a joke in it, about the Ironic nature of the rich oligarchs getting the worst end of the deal. Bit too subtle it seems. 

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

Knock knock..      Hello!  . . .  Hello . . .            

Is there anyone out there with a sense of irony, or the slightest sense of humour?          Apparently not. 

Here is the kind of thing that the western media will not allow you to see, if they can help it. They are keeping you nicely fed on spin :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU

 

Top marks for using a YT video... not. You need to stay away from QA sites. NATO and our MOD is releasing daily intelligence commentary, which they often corroborate with evidence, which can also be corroborated by MSM, and you're calling it 'spin'? You seem to have an axe to grind.

Edited April 5, 2022 by StringJunky
Added

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

Here is the kind of thing that the western media will not allow you to see, if they can help it.

It's a very flawed argument, so it's more likely it was ignored because of that. 

Watch the video again, and realize she keeps referring to "NATO expansion", as if they're actively recruiting member states. That's disinformation, and fosters the Putin viewpoint that an aggressor is threatening. That's not the unvarnished truth you seem to think it is. I'd love to hear from some of our Indian members to see what they think about WION. To me, it seems like cheap propaganda claiming to be fair and balanced. 

In truth, NATO is an attractive alliance for many former Soviet territories looking to form democracies, or anyone looking for collective security to protect from greedy neighbors. What Putin (and the disinformation journalist in your video) fear is that the contrast between Russian dictatorship and NATO democracies is becoming ever more apparent, and making NATO look especially good by comparison.

So tell me, do you think Mexico should invade the US because they're NATO members and so many Mexicans are applying for US citizenship? Mexico used to own parts of this country too. Is this an example of American/NATO expansionism, where we conquer them by being a more desirable place to live?

[MSC]

24 minutes ago, mistermack said:

made the mistake of putting a joke in it, about the Ironic nature of the rich oligarchs getting the worst end of the deal. Bit too subtle it seems

I get it, now that you've explained a little. Unfortunately high brow comedy is very hard to pull off in this venue. Yes the people here are more likely to get the joke, but only if you had a microphone and were on a stage in the right atmosphere. Take it from me, I come from the comedy capital of the world. Philosophy and phenomenology of comedy and humour are favorites of mine. So I admire your attempt. 100%. 

Jokes around discussions involving war crimes, are not advisable. Tensions are high. Read the room.

10 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Watch the video again, and realize she keeps referring to "NATO expansion", as if they're actively recruiting member states. That's disinformation, and fosters the Putin viewpoint that an aggressor is threatening. That's not the unvarnished truth you seem to think it is. I'd love to hear from some of our Indian members to see what they think about WION. To me, it seems like cheap propaganda claiming to be fair and balanced. 

Agreed. NATO expansion doesn't account for the agency of other countries to want that themselves based on what they have seen of the member countries. 

WION has a decent bias rating. Usually factual. However in terms of freedom of the press, out of 180 countries, it ranks at 140 on a scale of higher being less free and lower being more free. 

Their policy on international news is to produce it factual and give information on both sides views. However this is also the product of Indian foreign policy in regards to Russia and NATO is to give the impression of neutrality so as not to piss off Russia or NATO or piss them both off equally as a worst case scenario. Its editorials do tend to lean to the right, and it sometimes has problems sourcing or citing clearly. 

To be clear, the opening messages and sentiment, clearly framed that what Russia is doing with the Ukraine, is unjustifiable, intolerable and there is a solid case against them. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

Not Indian but I've watched enough WION to vouch for it as reasonably fair and balanced given a definite Indian bias. I've subjected myself to much worse.

[mistermack]

23 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Watch the video again, and realize she keeps referring to "NATO expansion", as if they're actively recruiting member states. That's disinformation,

"No, it's information.   "NATO currently recognizes Bosnia and Herzegovina, Georgia, and Ukraine as aspiring members as part of their Open Doors enlargement policy.^[2]"        Wikipedia  

Dunno where your facts are coming from. 

[MigL]

Hello !

Yes I have a sense of humor.

But Claiming that a defensive alliance like NATO, which has seen new members join of their own free will because they fear an expansionist Russia, is threatening the security of Russia, is akin to claiming women's shelters, where women go to escape abusive men, are a threat to men.

Do you find that ironic and humorous also ?

[mistermack]

30 minutes ago, MSC said:

I get it, now that you've explained a little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtMlsiDd138

 

[Phi for All]

25 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Dunno where your facts are coming from. 

If you click the Enlargement of NATO link in your own link, it points out that Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ukraine, and Georgia are aspiring members specifically because they "formally expressed their membership aspirations".

It seems like you're taking your "facts" from Putin. You seem to be arguing that an alliance that was formed to defend democracies against a tyrannical Russia is a justifiable threat to Putin, when the treaty basically states that "we'll come to your aid if Putin attacks you". Are you arguing that Putin should be able to invade whoever he wants to? I think your position is just getting uglier and uglier to defend.

24 minutes ago, MigL said:

Hello !

Yes I have a sense of humor.

But Claiming that a defensive alliance like NATO, which has seen new members join of their own free will because they fear an expansionist Russia, is threatening the security of Russia, is akin to claiming women's shelters, where women go to escape abusive men, are a threat to men.

Do you find that ironic and humorous also ?

Right? The bully whines about the fact that you have so many friends willing to help you because you're a good person. What a shocker!

[swansont]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

I never mentioned Texas. If you look back, you'll see I spoke about the UK and Roman Abramovitch. 

!

Moderator Note

Yes, which is why “for example” appears in my comment - I was showing how a statement could be supported with a statistical study. By the same token, you mentioned neither Bulgaria nor Romania, so that link is moot, and I will note that the plural of anecdote is not data. i.e. two stories about immigrants breaking the law is not a scientific argument that supports your smear.

Both the bigotry and the unsupported claims need to cease.

 

 

[Phi for All]

54 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Not Indian but I've watched enough WION to vouch for it as reasonably fair and balanced given a definite Indian bias. I've subjected myself to much worse.

I keep seeing various violations mentioned by various folk, but I see no patterns I recognize. The video quoted by mistermack is obviously pro-Putin disinformation, but that same reporter was accused of misleading viewers about something innocuous Putin said that she claimed was a "rape joke" about Ukraine. OTOH, YouTube blocked WION last month for violating it's restrictions on denying or trivializing well-documented violent events.

They are part of the more infamous Zee Media Corporation, which has pushed fake news stories on multiple occasions and been caught out. The little I've read about them suggest they run a lot of stories denigrating other countries, almost like they're being paid to. Nepal thinks Zee Media is paid by China to make them look bad, and have banned them from cable and satellite programming there.

[mistermack]

4 hours ago, swansont said:

I was showing how a statement could be supported with a statistical study.

Except that your "statistical study" seems to have come up with a spectacularly false conclusion. I just looked up incarceration rates in the US, and non-US citizens make up about 16 to 17 percent of inmates, while they are only 14 percent of the population. And reading your actual link, the top reason given as a deterrent to offending by immigrants was fear of deportation, just as I said earlier. 

And in their shoes, I would do the same and keep my head down. 

In the UK it's 9% immigrants giving 12-13% of inmates. But going by the reporting, the immigrant inmates are often there for the more serious crimes, whereas a substantial proportion of the domestic born inmates are there for more petty crimes, because of mental health issues and drug offences. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#:~:text=entirely.[citation needed]-,Citizenship statistics,-[edit] 

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/immigrants-in-the-united-states 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/foreigners-prison/  

I'm sorry if you find facts bigoted, but you asked the question.

[MSC]

8 hours ago, mistermack said:

Except that your "statistical study" seems to have come up with a spectacularly false conclusion. I just looked up incarceration rates in the US, and non-US citizens make up about 16 to 17 percent of inmates, while they are only 14 percent of the population. And reading your actual link, the top reason given as a deterrent to offending by immigrants was fear of deportation, just as I said earlier. 

And in their shoes, I would do the same and keep my head down. 

In the UK it's 9% immigrants giving 12-13% of inmates. But going by the reporting, the immigrant inmates are often there for the more serious crimes, whereas a substantial proportion of the domestic born inmates are there for more petty crimes, because of mental health issues and drug offences. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#:~:text=entirely.[citation needed]-,Citizenship statistics,-[edit] 

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/immigrants-in-the-united-states 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/foreigners-prison/  

I'm sorry if you find facts bigoted, but you asked the question.

Dude wtf is your agenda? I've asked you wtf this hijack is even for and so far it just seems to be a soapbox for you to rail against poor people and immigrants. 

Your interpretation of statistics is very telling of an extremely bigoted mindset. 

You can't give any of us a clear answer as to what this thread is about, so I don't see why we should engage with you anymore.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, MSC said:

You can't give any of us a clear answer as to what this thread is about, so I don't see why we should engage with you anymore.

Staff split his first comment off of a larger thread about a different subject, so mistermack didn't "start" this thread. The post was deemed off-topic for the other subject and threatened to take it off course, but mistermack seemed like he wanted to make the point that poor people get everything handed to them and rich people get all the blame, so this post was set as the OP for it's own thread. 

I think it gives people the opportunity to respond specifically to assertions made that would likely derail the main conversation. I'd like to use splits more often, especially when the comments seem like they're made specifically to drag a good talk into the mud. It gives us a chance to really drill down and find out where someone is coming from.

[swansont]

11 hours ago, mistermack said:

Except that your "statistical study" seems to have come up with a spectacularly false conclusion. I just looked up incarceration rates in the US, and non-US citizens make up about 16 to 17 percent of inmates, while they are only 14 percent of the population. And reading your actual link, the top reason given as a deterrent to offending by immigrants was fear of deportation, just as I said earlier. 

And in their shoes, I would do the same and keep my head down. 

In the UK it's 9% immigrants giving 12-13% of inmates. But going by the reporting, the immigrant inmates are often there for the more serious crimes, whereas a substantial proportion of the domestic born inmates are there for more petty crimes, because of mental health issues and drug offences. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#:~:text=entirely.[citation needed]-,Citizenship statistics,-[edit] 

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/immigrants-in-the-united-states 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/foreigners-prison/  

I'm sorry if you find facts bigoted, but you asked the question.

!

Moderator Note

You didn’t present facts in the original post, and that is one of the issues at hand. Distracting from that isn’t going to change anything.

”people come from the gutter in Somalia, Eritrea and Lithuania, bring nothing with them, and they rape, rob and murder, and we shower them with lawyers, psychiatrists and benfits.” (sic)  is still an unsupported, bigoted statement.

 

[mistermack]

21 minutes ago, swansont said:

You didn’t present facts in the original post, and that is one of the issues at hand.

I didn't, because my original post was not about numbers or percentages. Or casting aspersions on immigrants in general. That came from you.

I posted about the contrasting TREATMENT of immigrants. Comparing the best, like Roman Abramavitch ( an immigrant ) with the worst, the minority who rob, rape, and murder etc. You then spoke to that post, as if it was casting a slur on all immigrants, which it never did. So you twisted and spun my post to supposedly be a bigoted comment about ALL immigrants. When it was just about how our legal system treats them, best vs worst.

If you responded to what I wrote, and not your own false spin on it, there wouldn't need to be a split thread. 

[Phi for All]

19 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I posted about the contrasting TREATMENT of immigrants. Comparing the best, like Roman Abramavitch ( an immigrant ) with the worst, the minority who rob, rape, and murder etc.

So a rich murderer is better than a poor murderer? I would argue that Abramovich is not only a bigger robber and murderer, but he has the wealth to also be a source of corruption, something the poor lack. You're ignoring the scale of his corruption because there's only one of him, but look how he raped Russians of assets from the former Soviet Union. Do you admire him for this?