Hijack from War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?

[MSC]

38 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Staff split his first comment off of a larger thread about a different subject, so mistermack didn't "start" this thread. The post was deemed off-topic for the other subject and threatened to take it off course, but mistermack seemed like he wanted to make the point that poor people get everything handed to them and rich people get all the blame, so this post was set as the OP for it's own thread. 

I think it gives people the opportunity to respond specifically to assertions made that would likely derail the main conversation. I'd like to use splits more often, especially when the comments seem like they're made specifically to drag a good talk into the mud. It gives us a chance to really drill down and find out where someone is coming from.

Fair enough. I get why the staff did that. I just wish mistermack would use the opportunity to have their own thread to at least be coherent. I mean, the "poor get everything handed to them"? Then why are they still poor? Then there is the connection between being poor and from another country? Finding it hard to keep up and annoyed that Mistermack is ignoring large swathes of our responses. 

I mean, if I take a few news stories of British or American citizens committing heinous crimes, by mistermacks logic do I get to claim that they are all criminals and that the one or two news stories I grabbed are incontrovertible evidence of this? Hell no! 

Sometimes I have to say, I almost prefer it when a bigot is more direct. That is a much more straightforward situation to handle. I can just tell them to fuck off and/or go out and spend a year in a community where their target demographic is in the majority before speaking again.

I used to live in a highly segregated area (segregated by redlining/greenling history, not policy) called North Lawndale in Chicago. It's a majority black area. It is crime ridden and run by gangs. The majority of the people there, are NOT in gangs. The majority of the people there HATE gangs. The majority of the people there are LAW ABIDING. Two of my closest friends from back home in the UK, are African. When I was homeless they took me in where my family had abandoned me. So not only do I have an experience of immigrants in my home country that treated me amazingly; I have an experience of being an immigrant in another country among people who had justifiable reasons for being terrified of me, yet welcomed me with open arms. 

I'm saying all this because I admittedly feel kind of worked up and emotional. Had a horrible fucking dream last night and waking up to this has upset me, no doubt about that. 

@mistermackAll I want you to do, is ask yourself why you are allowing fear and hatred to colour your views of people and why you think it is appropriate to blame Ukrainians for Russia invading them and why you think that countries that choose to make use of the NATO open door policy are somehow in the wrong and deserve to be attacked by Russia for it? 

I think you should apologize for misunderstandings caused by you.

[mistermack]

6 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I would argue that Abramovich is not only a bigger robber and murderer

Where's your evidence?

[MSC]

30 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Where's your evidence?

Where's yours?!

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Where's your evidence?

The purchase of the Sibneft oil and gas company through the rigged Russian government auction in 1995 is a great example of rape and robbery of assets that were once owned by socialist soviets. Or do you contend that someone who can snatch a company like that for $250M and sell it 10 years later BACK to the state for $13B is just a good businessman? Are you proud of the accomplishments of the Russian oligarchs who preyed on their own? Does that make them enviable wolves taking their just share from the sheep?

[mistermack]

3 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

The purchase of the Sibneft oil and gas company through the rigged Russian government auction in 1995 is a great example of rape and robbery of assets that were once owned by socialist soviets. Or do you contend that someone who can snatch a company like that for $250M and sell it 10 years later BACK to the state for $13B is just a good businessman? Are you proud of the accomplishments of the Russian oligarchs who preyed on their own? Does that make them enviable wolves taking their just share from the sheep?

Where's your evidence? Where's the figures, where's the accounts for what was spent and invested in the intermdiate years? This is just hand waving.

[Phi for All]

12 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Where's your evidence?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60736185

Quote

 

A BBC investigation has uncovered new evidence about the corrupt deals that made Roman Abramovich's fortune.

The Chelsea owner made billions after buying an oil company from the Russian government in a rigged auction in 1995.

Mr Abramovich paid around $250m (£190m) for Sibneft, before selling it back to the Russian government for $13bn in 2005.

 

I'm waiting for your hands to start waving this away.

 

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/understanding-russian-oligarchs

Quote

Yes, I mean one of them, Boris Berezovsky, owned the main television station and all of the media. It got to the point where they would kill anybody who stood against them. It was very much part of the business that if somebody was your competitor or someone disrespected you, you would take them out. There was even a famous story where a top anchor on the news was saying things, and ended up getting shot in his apartment building. It was a very violent business, being an oligarch.

 

Quote

 

Yes, this is a pretty wild story, but the oligarchs had all of this power under Yeltsin, but Yeltsin was getting sick. He was not doing well, and they knew they needed to replace him. So they were seeking somebody that they could control. Boris Berezovsky, who was one of these powerful oligarchs, knew a guy named Putin, who was this low-level KGB agent in St. Petersburg. Putin worked for the mayor of St. Petersburg, and then helped Berezovsky set up a car dealership. Literally, they pulled this guy out of nowhere and they installed him in Moscow. He basically became head of the country. They thought he was a cog, they called him a cog -- like, a low-level guy who they would control.

But everything changed. In the first week, Putin invited all of the oligarchs out to Stalin's old house. This is a place where there's like bullet holes in the walls where people used to get lined up and shot. He had all the oligarchs sit down at a table. He got up in front of them, and he said, you've all made tons of money. You've all done really, really well. You can keep your money. But from here on out, you stay out of my way. All the oligarchs who stayed out of his way are the oligarchs who are around today doing very well, and the oligarchs who did not, who spoke up, all died or were exiled -- were found hanging in their bathroom or fell down an elevator shaft or fell out of a helicopter. It was not good business going up against Putin. Putin very quickly became the most powerful oligarch of all.

 

Clearly these are people you admire as leaders?

[mistermack]

17 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Clearly these are people you admire as leaders?

You're trying to derail my thread. Start a thread of your own, if you want to discuss payoffs in Russia in the 90s. I'm sure it will be fascinating, but this thread has an OP, and I'd like to keep it on that. 

I contrasted one kind of immigrant, ( Roman Abramavitch ) with another kind, the ones who rob, rape and kill. Swansont insisted that I should justify with facts that immigrants are statistically more prone to crime. Something I NEVER wrote. 

Is there a forum rule, that if you mention the bad things that some immigrants do, you have to prove that they ALL do it? When you clearly never said it? Even when you were praising another kind of immigrant in THE SAME SENTENCE ? 

How is it right, that you should be required to produce facts to back up something that you didn't write ? And when I did produce facts as demanded, I got a modrator's warning point? 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Swansont insisted that I should justify with facts that immigrants are statistically more prone to crime.

!

Moderator Note

No, I in fact did not do this. I asked you to back up your claim, which was about a few specific groups of immigrants committing a particular set of crimes, and gave an example of how one might do that. (you can tell it was an example by the use of the phrasing "for example" and the fact that it was literally a parenthetical remark)

Trying to rewrite history isn't going to work. One only need to scroll back a bit to see what actually happened.

 

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Is there a forum rule, that if you mention the bad things that some immigrants do, you have to prove that they ALL do it? When you clearly never said it? Even when you were praising another kind of immigrant in THE SAME SENTENCE ? 

!

Moderator Note

Yes, I listed it from rule 2.1

What you did was paint with a very broad brush about immigrants from a few places, which is a slur against these people.

 

[Sensei]

On 4/5/2022 at 9:26 PM, mistermack said:

I was replying to a post about the confiscation of Oligarch's assets,

..they were "frozen" because they physically did not belong to them.. i.e. "oligarchs" are just sockpuppets of V.P, like Donald T., not the real owners of the assets..

In the original thread I posted Navalny's documentary which literally nobody commented (so I assume nobody watched the video also!)..

 

...In which the mechanisms by which they steal money from the Russians are shown, and which are ESSENTIAL to both this thread and the parent thread... WTF is going on with you guys...

You talk about "Russian oligarchs"...but you didn't even bother to check how they are connected to each other.... watch the video....

It's a bit like watching biology and evolution without mentioning genes....

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Sensei

[mistermack]

46 minutes ago, swansont said:

What you did was paint with a very broad brush about immigrants from a few places, which is a slur against these people.

I'm sure I did not. But you will no doubt be able to point to exactly where I did paint with a "broad brush" Or is it just a case of, you said I did, so I did?

A broad brush would include words that implicate the people in general would it not? But no words of that sort are in the post. The broad brush appears to be inside your own head.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

..they were "frozen" because they physically did not belong to them.. i.e. "oligarchs" are just sockpuppets of V.P, like Donald T., not the real owners of the assets..

In the original thread I posted Navalny's documentary which literally nobody commented (so I assume nobody watched the video also!)..

 

...In which the mechanisms by which they steal money from the Russians are shown, and which are ESSENTIAL to both this thread and the parent thread... WTF is going on with you guys...

You talk about "Russian oligarchs"...but you didn't even bother to check how they are connected to each other.... watch the video....

It's a bit like watching biology and evolution without mentioning genes....

 

If you want people to see your support for what you are saying, don't post videos, use readable sources, it can be browsed and read many times quicker. How many people have got nearly two hours free to watch a video that might be a waste of time. This is not to say yours is. Text wins everytime. I might watch it later though, as the subject interests me.

Phi put this up on the same subject earlier:

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/understanding-russian-oligarchs

Edited April 7, 2022 by StringJunky

[Sensei]

19 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

If you want people to see your support what you are saying, don't post videos, use readable sources, it can be browsed and read many times quicker. How many people have got nearly two hours free to watch a video that might be a waste of time. This is not to say yours is. Text wins everytime.

...there is difference between "me"... and "ordinary newbie who join the forum"...

...I didn't made the video.. the only alive opposition of V.P. made this video..

..if you think it is not worth watching a video of the-most-hated-opponent/enemy of V.P., you should not even talking about any Russian vs EU/USA/West world threads, because it is complete senseless...

 

..it is kinda like refusing to watch Biden's video when Donald T. is president..  and asking me to tell you what Biden's video is about..

 

  

19 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

use readable sources, it can be browsed and read many times quicker.

"..criminal activity of V.P., his family, and friends.."

is it enough detailful.. ?

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Sensei

[StringJunky]

7 minutes ago, Sensei said:

...there is difference between "me"... and "ordinary newbie who join the forum"...

You are not understanding me, a lot of people don't have the time to devote to a video as a means of assessing evidence. A transcript of a video may well get takers.

[TheVat]

Shouldn't be that hard to provide a textual source on oligarchs and Putin corruption.  I believe a suitable title for such a text would be Putin on the Ritz.   

https://palace.navalny.com/

[Sensei]

33 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

You are not understanding me,

...I understand you pretty well..

34 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

a lot of people don't have the time to devote to a video as a means of assessing evidence.

...I think it is reverse... majority of people require video as evidence...

"he murdered and raped that woman"

vs

"video of entire accident and photos of the body of murdered woman"..

38 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

A transcript of a video may well get takers.

..get transcript from Auschwitz...

39 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

a lot of people don't have the time to devote to

..get transcript from Auschwitz... after all, your time is so precious.....

 

...and get a transcript of the mass murders in Ukraine... after all, your time is so valuable...

 

[StringJunky]

@Sensei Carry putting up videos then that you know hardly anyone will look at.

[Sensei]

23 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

@Sensei Carry putting up videos then that you know hardly anyone will look at.

...I put the video, to people see the video... but... I can't force people to see the video...

The content is pretty simple, an explanation of the crimes of V.P. and his mobsters...

If someone from the West doesn't have time, they don't have time.. I can't find time for them either...

 

[MSC]

I think what Sensei is trying to say, that we just think Putins Oligarchy is awful but we don't pay enough attention to the knowledge and experiences of Russians to know just how awful. It's more of an epistemological rage 😆 

I do sense a highjack of a highjack coming on... highjackception! @mod if that happens can we call it that?

@SenseiI do prefer written sources as well. Especially written statements from witnesses. That said, I don't doubt that I do not know the half of it when it comes to what depths any government or dictator has sunk to and that sometimes there is difficulty in documentation. If a person is willing to do abhorrent shit publicly, we can only imagine what they do privately. 

I'll try and watch the video later. I'll make the time at some point. However I'll give an honest review of the video and you may or may not like what I have to say about it. 

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Shouldn't be that hard to provide a textual source on oligarchs and Putin corruption.  I believe a suitable title for such a text would be Putin on the Ritz.   

https://palace.navalny.com/

I think the link I posted covers the content of the video, provided your web browser supplies the English translation button at the bottom of the page.  Or some have the translation accessed by a dropdown option.  

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

I'm sure I did not. But you will no doubt be able to point to exactly where I did paint with a "broad brush" Or is it just a case of, you said I did, so I did?

A broad brush would include words that implicate the people in general would it not? But no words of that sort are in the post. The broad brush appears to be inside your own head.

On 4/5/2022 at 9:30 AM, mistermack said:

Meanwhile, people come from the gutter in Somalia, Eritrea and Lithuania, bring nothing with them, and they rape, rob and murder, and we shower them with lawyers, psychiatrists and benfits.

It looks like, when we can take your assertions one at a time instead of dealing with a shit-flooded zone, they're much easier to deconstruct.

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

A broad brush would include words that implicate the people in general would it not? But no words of that sort are in the post. The broad brush appears to be inside your own head.

All you have been doing is using a broad brush. Even ignoring the atrocious and evocative characterization of certain folks, the superficial look at incarceration statistics is an example of using a too broad brush.

Generally speaking crime is a relatively rare event which is not randomly distributed in a population. Some of the key factors, especially for violent crimes, where incarceration is more likely, include socioeconomic status and gender. So for these types of comparisons, at least representative cohorts are needed. Other ways to look at it would be to se whether areas or times with high immigration correlate with change in crime trajectories relative to areas which have no or reduced immigration and so on. 

Most in-depth studies were conducted in the US have clearly shown that the association between immigration and crime is a myth.

Longitudinal analyses conclude that first generation immigrants are less likely to enter a crime trajectory, while 2nd generation kind of catch up to their native peers (https://doi.org/10.1080/07418825.2012.659200), undocumented immigrants were less likely to be involved in crime than their legal or native peers (https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2014704117), a consistent negative association has been found between crime and immigration (https://doi.org/10.1080/15377938.2016.1261057), a pattern also seen in Canada  (https://doi.org/10.3138/cjccj.2019-0015; https://doi.org/10.1353/sof.0.0229) and the UK https://doi.org/10.1163/15718174-02503002. 

In other words, once one puts the big brush aside, a finer resolved view emerges that counters the persistent but false narrative of immigrant crimes. What it does tell us that among immigrants the factors that are associated with crime (e.g. low income, gender bias) are likely overrepresented plus potential bias in policing. 

Also your selection of countries for criminal immigrants is quite interesting considering that the top foreign nationalities are  Albanian, Polish, Romanian and Irish. Not saying that mentioning those would be any better, but perhaps there is some discrepancy between perception and reality?

[Sensei]

2 hours ago, MSC said:

Especially written statements from witnesses.

Seriously? witnesses? Maybe you want V.P. as witness??

Maybe you also want a hidden camera in the White House, attached to the main table, recording Monica under the table?

...the video e.g. contains unaware FSB agents discussing about no-flight-zone above/nearby V.P. residence "which does not exists"/"which is not his property" with somebody who wanted to travel too close to it..

Which Russian oligarch orders FSB what to do?

Unaware FSB agent, unaware person recorded by hidden camera, is worth hundred written testimonies from "witnesses"...

 

 

 

[MSC]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Seriously? witnesses? Maybe you want V.P. as witness??

Maybe you also want a hidden camera in the White House, attached to the main table, recording Monica under the table?

...the video e.g. contains unaware FSB agents discussing about no-flight-zone above/nearby V.P. residence "which does not exists"/"which is not his property" with somebody who wanted to travel too close to it..

Which Russian oligarch orders FSB what to do?

Unaware FSB agent, unaware person recorded by hidden camera, is worth hundred written testimonies from "witnesses"...

 

 

 

Okay clearly I didn't understand what you meant before. I think there is a language barrier stopping me from being able to understand you clearly.