Is it rational (for an athiest) to believe in religion?

[Ken Fabian]

They stop being atheists with that belief. Taking up religion because other people appear more contented or happy with it could be a rational choice, especially if atheists face persecution, even to wanting to believe and at times feel like they do. And at other times, not. Is that an in between state or a switching between theist and atheist? People are complicated and even the rational are not always rational.

[dimreepr]

35 minutes ago, Ken Fabian said:

They stop being atheists with that belief. Taking up religion because other people appear more contented or happy with it could be a rational choice, especially if atheists face persecution, even to wanting to believe and at times feel like they do. And at other times, not. Is that an in between state or a switching between theist and atheist? People are complicated and even the rational are not always rational.

It's well worth a watch and neatly summed by the last speaker.

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

If you're in a warzone helplessly cowering in a bunker, starving and thirsty, is it irrational to want/hope there's something greater than yourself, to protect you and lead you to happier place? It doesn't matter that it's magic if it works, that goes for anyone who are struggling to live life, the hope that there's better things to come makes the load that little bit lighter.

We all enjoy a daydream or two. It can even be useful in the odd situation, as above. But that's NOT religion. 

It becomes a religion when you start preaching it to others as a certain fact, and forcing it down the throats of little children, and demanding substantial sums of money to better propagate the myth. And fighting and killing people who have a different daydream. In the name of god. 

[Genady]

" is it irrational to want/hope " (dimreepr)

Yes, it is. By definition.

[dimreepr]

40 minutes ago, Genady said:

" is it irrational to want/hope " (dimreepr)

Yes, it is. By definition.

Who's definition? 

[Genady]

Just now, dimreepr said:

Who's definition? 

Definition of "rational".

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, Genady said:

Definition of "rational".

That's not a who, that's a how...

[Genady]

Just now, dimreepr said:

That's not a who, that's a how...

I don't know "who" has defined this word. I don't think it matters. That's what the word means.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Genady said:

I don't know "who" has defined this word. I don't think it matters. That's what the word means.

Let's not get into a mologistic argument.

 

[exchemist]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

 

It illustrates the struggle we will face in the absence of God, I think Nietzscher spent the rest of his life trying to think of an alternative to God, he'd be appalled at what Hitler made of his thinking.

 

 

 

 

I don't see how it does any such thing. What struggle? Why would there be a struggle? Struggle against what? 

[Bufofrog]

On 4/7/2022 at 8:11 AM, mistermack said:

Would it be better for me to know that I'm going to be roasted in hell for all eternity after I die? Of course it would. I have an escape route, I can just give up my soul to the Lord, and praise his righteousness.

Which Lord?

What if you pick the wrong Lord?

Your escape route sucks!  "Here are 50 doors, one leads to paradise and the other 49 lead to Hell, good luck!"

[MigL]

3 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

"Here are 50 doors, one leads to paradise and the other 49 lead to Hell, good luck!"

The odds for the lottery are much much worse, yet people still play it.
Hope is a very strong emotional motivator.
Some people ( I don't currently, but you never know ) need that motivator; who am I to deny them that, when hope is all they have left.

Don't make me quote The Shawshank Redemption again.

Edited April 8, 2022 by MigL

[beecee]

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

If you're in a warzone helplessly cowering in a bunker, starving and thirsty, is it irrational to want/hope there's something greater than yourself, to protect you and lead you to happier place? It doesn't matter that it's magic if it works, that goes for anyone who are struggling to live life, the hope that there's better things to come makes the load that little bit lighter.

If people get a warm fuzzy feeling of contentment in believing in a higher existence and reward or whatever, then good for them. No one I believe has ever denied them that right. But of course we have no evidence for such, and of course such thoughts of supernatural/paranormal myth is unscientific.

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

It illustrates the struggle we will face in the absence of God, I think Nietzscher spent the rest of his life trying to think of an alternative to God, he'd be appalled at what Hitler made of his thinking.

And if this god of yours does exist, why do we still have struggles, evil, wars, crime etc?....Alternatively, do you have any evidence at all that shows those that reject the ID myth, have any more life struggles and problems, then those that prefer unscientific nonsense for whatever reason. Why do you object to the overwhelming evidence of the finality of death? And why do you seemingly have sympathy/feelings towards one of the most evil humans ever to walk on this planet?

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

It wasn't an accusation, it was a question. 😉

 You (as usual) ask a question with no definitive  answer. Oh, and I'm even happier this morning, as my Sydney Roosters won a hard fought game 24-20

This thread remaians irrational....

23 hours ago, beecee said:

Is it rational (for an athiest) to believe in religion?

Atheist= a  person who does not believe in a creator/deity/ID/god

Religion = The belief in a super duper omnipotent being/god

Rational = A belief based on reason, logic and evidence. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=rational+foundations+of+religion&rlz=1C1RXQR_en-GBAU952AU952&oq=rational&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0i67i131i433j0i67j0i67i131i433j69i60l3.2928j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

"Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching"

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by beecee

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, exchemist said:

I don't see how it does any such thing. What struggle? Why would there be a struggle? Struggle against what? 

I don't know what problem's Fred foresaw when we give ourselves agency over our moral decisions, without a backstop; but for me the ever increasing wealth gap is a direct result of no God.

It's the difference between a tax and a tythe. A tax you can decide to avoid, if you can't see the benefit to yourself of paying your fair share. A tythe you give happily because Jesus told us to, he understood the benefits for everyone, so even if you have no intention of being benelovent or caring, you give because you'll go to heaven.

Quote

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him—you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns?

 

[exchemist]

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I don't know what problem's Fred foresaw when we give ourselves agency over our moral decisions, without a backstop; but for me the ever increasing wealth gap is a direct result of no God.

It's the difference between a tax and a tythe. A tax you can decide to avoid, if you can't see the benefit to yourself of paying your fair share. A tythe you give happily because Jesus told us to, he understood the benefits for everyone, so even if you have no intention of being benelovent or caring, you give because you'll go to heaven.

 

Eh? Who the f*** is "Fred", suddenly? And why don't you answer my question? A struggle has to be against something. Who is struggling and against what? 

Is this "Fred" person struggling against a "wealth gap", or something? If so, who cares? And what does this have to do with atheists believing in religion?

Or are you just someone who habitually makes no sense? 

 

 

[dimreepr]

14 hours ago, beecee said:

And if this god of yours does exist

It doesn't as far as I'm concerned, being an atheist as I've said many many time's; this thread isn't about God, it's about the rationality of religion.

14 hours ago, beecee said:

why do we still have struggles, evil, wars, crime etc?

Because we are human.

Quote

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!"—As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated?—Thus they yelled and laughed

We all need a lantern, even on the brightest days.

1 minute ago, exchemist said:

Eh? Who the f*** is "Fred", suddenly?

Friedrich Nietzsche, I thought it was obvious.

2 minutes ago, exchemist said:

And why don't you answer my question? 

I have.

2 minutes ago, exchemist said:

A struggle has to be against something. Who is struggling and against what? 

A lot of people are struggling against poverty, I thought that was implied.

5 minutes ago, exchemist said:

9 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Is this "Fred" person struggling against a "wealth gap", or something? If so, who cares? And what does this have to do with atheists believing in religion?

Sorry it was ill worded title, I'm trying to explore the rationality of religion and it's benefits to humanity, and Fred was famously an atheist who seemed to have struggled with the question of what we replace god with. 

10 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Or are you just someone who habitually makes no sense? 

Sorry, I'm not very articulate/clever.

[exchemist]

37 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It doesn't as far as I'm concerned, being an atheist as I've said many many time's; this thread isn't about God, it's about the rationality of religion.

Because we are human.

We all need a lantern, even on the brightest days.

Friedrich Nietzsche, I thought it was obvious.

I have.

A lot of people are struggling against poverty, I thought that was implied.

Sorry it was ill worded title, I'm trying to explore the rationality of religion and it's benefits to humanity, and Fred was famously an atheist who seemed to have struggled with the question of what we replace god with. 

Sorry, I'm not very articulate/clever.

OK so two ideas: a struggle that some people have against poverty, and Nietzsche's idea that if one does not believe in God one has to replace the role of God in some way. 

The first one seems to be a social issue rather than anything to do with religion.  Marx, at any rate, did not seem to think religion helped with it.

On the second, you will need to explain first of all why Nietzsche thought that a replacement for God would be needed, if one did not have religious belief. 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by exchemist

[dimreepr]

58 minutes ago, exchemist said:

you will need to explain first of all why Nietzsche thought that a replacement for God would be needed, if one did not have religious belief. 

I've not been taught philosophy, so I don't know the conventional wisdom as to what he meant by the madman parable, it's just my take on it, as I tried to explain in my tax v tythe analogy. 

What's your, or the mainstream's, interpretation of the parable?

[mistermack]

21 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

Which Lord?

What if you pick the wrong Lord?

Your escape route sucks!  "Here are 50 doors, one leads to paradise and the other 49 lead to Hell, good luck!"

I'm sure the Lord would guide me. 

[exchemist]

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I've not been taught philosophy, so I don't know the conventional wisdom as to what he meant by the madman parable, it's just my take on it, as I tried to explain in my tax v tythe analogy. 

What's your, or the mainstream's, interpretation of the parable?

Then what the hell are you talking about Nietzsche for, you berk?

This is pointless. I've had enough. 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

OK so two ideas: a struggle that some people have against poverty, and Nietzsche's idea that if one does not believe in God one has to replace the role of God in some way. 

Not two ideas, just one: some people struggle with life and need a bit of guidance, to whom do they look for that guidance?

 

11 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Then what the hell are you talking about Nietzsche for, you berk?

This is pointless. I've had enough. 

Because I think he had a point and you haven't explained why I'm wrong.

Edited April 9, 2022 by dimreepr

[Bufofrog]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

I'm sure the Lord would guide me. 

That is exactly what the followers of all the other Lords say.  Weird ain't it?

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, Bufofrog said:

That is exactly what the followers of all the other Lords say.  Weird ain't it?

You do know my post was of a humerous nature I hope ? 

[iNow]

The very best jokes are always those we have to explain and clarify that it was a joke 

[mistermack]

12 minutes ago, iNow said:

The very best jokes are always those we have to explain and clarify that it was a joke 

You have to make them a bit more obvious for Americans.