Trolling (split from Quick Forum Questions)

[zapatos]

4 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Ok. People in the US demanding the rights and services we're accustomed to in Canada, Australia, France, Norway, Japan, etc. equate to people storming the Capitol with lead pipes and explosives to overturn a legitimate election. It's all very subjective.  

Clearly that is not the equivalence beecee was making.

[Peterkin]

25 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Clearly that is not the equivalence beecee was making.

Clearly. That's just my subjective view of how the radicalism manifests in public demonstrations.

[MigL]

Did somebody say "What does Lui think about this" ?

I think this thread should be split off ( @ yesterday 6:34 pm ) because it currently has little to do with the troll who prompted the OP.
I resisted posting in this thread simply to avoid feeding him.

I would certainly welcome a discussion as to why a lot of us are obstinate and hard-headed.
As long as we keep it friendly while trying to point out each other's character flaws.

[beecee]

10 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Ok. People in the US demanding the rights and services we're accustomed to in Canada, Australia, France, Norway, Japan, etc. equate to people storming the Capitol with lead pipes and explosives to overturn a legitimate election. It's all very subjective.  

What normal things are you on about? Some sure...adequate universal health care, achaic gun laws is another. The political election systems seem way over complicated but maybe that's just me. We have mandatory vaccinations in Australia in certain industries including health, that many see as extreme. And sure it's subjective, I thought I did say that.But more to the point, what may be considered as just and normal like adequate gun laws, which the right and the NRA view as sacrilege, when any move is made to contain those same guns, see such, as extreme....The examples of extreme left views and other rights considered normal possibly also have pursasive extreme elements and views held by individuals in certain orginisations. And of course as I have also mentioned political correctness, going from the sublime to the ridiculous is probably another. 

What you seem to be suggesting is that while the extremes of rights exist, the extremes of left do not. That probably contributes to my hypothesis. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Far-left_politics_in_the_United_States

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2020/02/16/anti-capitalism-on-us-university-campuses-the-culture-war-is-fought-dirty/?sh=115af0b5c4b7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party

 

Of course there are just as many extreme right wing orginisations also, the trick is recognising the extremes of both sides of politics.

8 hours ago, MigL said:

Did somebody say "What does Lui think about this" ?

I think this thread should be split off ( @ yesterday 6:34 pm ) because it currently has little to do with the troll who prompted the OP.
I resisted posting in this thread simply to avoid feeding him.

I would certainly welcome a discussion as to why a lot of us are obstinate and hard-headed.
As long as we keep it friendly while trying to point out each other's character flaws.

Yes, you are correct. 

[iNow]

Are there extremes on both sides of the political aisle? Yes, of course. Are they equivalent? No, absolutely not, and anyone suggesting otherwise is arguing a false equivalence.

The extremes in the right try kidnapping state governors, think there’s a secret child sex ring running the government and that teachers who let kids read books about slavery should be jailed, and ignore election results by rising up fully armed in a coup or insurrection, whereas extremes on the left try getting us to please address climate change, offer healthcare to poor people, and get the police to stop murder our black citizens in the streets without any consequences. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by iNow

[beecee]

20 minutes ago, iNow said:

whereas extremes on the left try getting us to please address climate change, offer healthcare to poor people, and get the police to stop murder our black citizens in the streets without any consequences. 

I suggest that is more the politics of the moderates centre lefts and centre rights. At least in my experiences.

[dimreepr]

13 minutes ago, beecee said:

I suggest that is more the politics of the moderates centre lefts and centre rights. At least in my experiences.

Which, by definition is not extreme.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

What you seem to be suggesting is that while the extremes of rights exist, the extremes of left do not. That probably contributes to my hypothesis.

I wasn't suggesting that. I was asking for examples of public manifestation by which to compare the two. And now I'm saying that the 'extreme left' in the US, officially includes animals rights and environmental activists - neither of which is a political stance - as well as anarchists, communists etc, most of them diffuse and unorganized. The right, otoh, is organized, highly visible, intensely active in mainstream political processes, heavily armed and far more numerous.

https://www.counterextremism.com/content/extreme-left-groups-united-states

Quote

Researchers found that far-left attacks had resulted in only one fatality in that 25-year span, compared with 329 fatalities in attacks by the far right.* .....A revitalized American far left has emerged to lead protest movements against the far right and perceived injustices. Armed groups such as the John Brown Gun Club formed to directly confront the violent far right and a broad interpretation of fascism.... These manifestations have been on display during 2020 protests against police brutality, during which the far left have become increasingly visible and destructive, leading President Donald Trump in May 2020 to call for designating the broad anti-fascist ideology Antifa a terrorist organization.

A response, as you said. It all started when the designated victim hit back....

(I don't think you can use the Black Panthers - themselves, a reaction to discriminatory and violent action by agencies of the state, as a manifestation of currently rising extremism.)

56 minutes ago, beecee said:

I suggest that [  try getting us to please address climate change, offer healthcare to poor people, and get the police to stop murder our black citizens in the streets without any consequences.]   is more the politics of the moderates centre lefts and centre rights

Had that been the case, and the moderate centrists lefts and rights been at all effective, those would no longer be issues of contention in the Unites States (which, with respect, is not in your experience, and only peripherally in mine, so we're neither of us in any position to adjudicate how Americans ought to address their severely damaged political system. If the state is unable or unwilling to protect citizens from violence by the far right, or to ensure their liberty, those citizens very few options but to defend themselves.)

Edited April 24, 2022 by Peterkin

[MigL]

28 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

  Quote

Researchers found that far-left attacks had resulted in only one fatality in that 25-year span, compared with 329 fatalities in attacks by the far right.* .....A revitalized American far left has emerged to lead protest movements against the far right and perceived injustices. Armed groups such as the John Brown Gun Club formed to directly confront the violent far right and a broad interpretation of fascism.... These manifestations have been on display during 2020 protests against police brutality, during which the far left have become increasingly visible and destructive, leading President Donald Trump in May 2020 to call for designating the broad anti-fascist ideology Antifa a terrorist organization.

Only in America ...

A gun club to protect against those who advocate for the proliferation of guns.
Didn't D Trump want to do the same, by arming teachers to combat gun violence in schools ?

Seems a bit like trying to put out a fire with gasoline

I don't usually consider it a 'far right' or 'far left' problem, just a problem with people, some of whom are nuts.
Same as there is no such thing as extreme Communism or extreme Fascism.
In the extreme, both systems use similar methods, and people suffer and die.
I can be argued that as many, if not more, people suffered and died due to Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, than did during WW2 against the Fascists/Nazis and South American Juntas.

[Peterkin]

14 minutes ago, MigL said:

A gun club to protect against those who advocate for the proliferation of guns.
Didn't D Trump want to do the same, by arming teachers to combat gun violence in schools ?

Seems a bit like trying to put out a fire with gasoline

I guess lying down in front of tanks is more effective. Just, you know, some people refuse easy martyrdom.

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

In the extreme, both systems use similar methods, and people suffer and die.

AKA  the story of mankind.

[dimreepr]

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

Only in America ...

A gun club to protect against those who advocate for the proliferation of guns.
Didn't D Trump want to do the same, by arming teachers to combat gun violence in schools ?

Seems a bit like trying to put out a fire with gasoline

I don't usually consider it a 'far right' or 'far left' problem, just a problem with people, some of whom are nuts.
Same as there is no such thing as extreme Communism or extreme Fascism.
In the extreme, both systems use similar methods, and people suffer and die.
I can be argued that as many, if not more, people suffered and died due to Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, than did during WW2 against the Fascists/Nazis and South American Juntas.

Lest we forget

[TheVat]

14 hours ago, Peterkin said:

 

I don't subscribe to the Atlantic.

https://archive.ph/1dFjp

I do.  Here's a screenshot of the complete article.  

In the information ecology of social media, the outrageous and extreme viewpoints are the best clickbait and they prosper.  At the expense of reasoning, depth, and equilibrium.   And truth.  

[Peterkin]

24 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Here's a screenshot of the complete article.

Thank you! It's thoughtful and intelligent; more in the realm of prediction than depiction. And it offers no path to solution - other than the one she hoped to nudge people into: voting. (However, given what's been done to voting practices....)

I have a serious quibble with only one line:

Quote

Trump has squeezed moderates out of his party.

They were squeezed out decades before, which is what made room for a Trump; all he did was push overboard the last 5 conservatives who retained a vestige of decency.

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 hours ago, beecee said:

I suggest that is more the politics of the moderates centre lefts and centre rights. At least in my experiences.

In fairness the extreme left can be included as well. The issue with them is that, for example, when they scream we only have 12 years to live, no one on the left corrects them to give context to where the 12 years comes from, and rob the left of credibility in the eyes of any reasonable moderate who is well aware it is a real concern that needs to be addressed.

They sit back comfortably in their seat on a jet, knowing they have done their part by screaming the loudest, oblivious to the fact they are almost as bad (that's for INow...I wouldn't want to be accused of false equivalency) as those on the extreme right...which is what they consider everyone to be that's to the right of them.

 

[Peterkin]

In fairness, 'almost' is one of the 10 longest words in the English language.

[beecee]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Which, by definition is not extreme.

Ummm yeah, that's what I was saying.

7 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I wasn't suggesting that. I was asking for examples of public manifestation by which to compare the two. And now I'm saying that the 'extreme left' in the US, officially includes animals rights and environmental activists - neither of which is a political stance - as well as anarchists, communists etc, most of them diffuse and unorganized. The right, otoh, is organized, highly visible, intensely active in mainstream political processes, heavily armed and far more numerous.

The extremes of the left, certainly include many well meaning, and desired agendas held by the moderates, and dare I say, also does the extreme right?

7 hours ago, Peterkin said:

(I don't think you can use the Black Panthers - themselves, a reaction to discriminatory and violent action by agencies of the state, as a manifestation of currently rising extremism.)

The black panthers are as valid an example as QAnon.

7 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Had that been the case, and the moderate centrists lefts and rights been at all effective, those would no longer be issues of contention in the Unites States (which, with respect, is not in your experience, and only peripherally in mine, so we're neither of us in any position to adjudicate how Americans ought to address their severely damaged political system. If the state is unable or unwilling to protect citizens from violence by the far right, or to ensure their liberty, those citizens very few options but to defend themselves.)

The moderates enveloping the desired politics like  climate change, (speaking globally) is held back by the fear factor being pushed by the extremes of the right, sprouting the extremes of the left as examples of what may happen. Irrespective, some progress is being made, sadly no where near enough in my country. Health care is taken for granted in Australia, and while the present conservatives do occasionaly chip around the edges trying to make it harder, its universal benefits are now known and appreciated, and any party attempting to get rid of it, would be quickly thrown out on their ear. Other issues peculiar to the USA I'll let go, other then perhaps to mention that the unlawful killing of blacks, is probably also to do with the freedom of being able to purchase a gun with ease in the US, and why the police there have such itchy fingers. There was also a case supporting that hypothesis of mine not so long ago with a white expatriot Australian woman (in a US city) shot and killed by a copper (black copper) after she herself called the cops to report suspicious activity in her area. That by the way, in no way detracts from the BLM movement.

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

In fairness the extreme left can be included as well. The issue with them is that, for example, when they scream we only have 12 years to live, no one on the left corrects them to give context to where the 12 years comes from, and rob the left of credibility in the eyes of any reasonable moderate who is well aware it is a real concern that needs to be addressed.

Yes, I already commented on that. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by beecee

[CharonY]

35 minutes ago, beecee said:

The black panthers are as valid an example as QAnon.

I strongly disagree. The only thing that is remotely as deluded might be black Hebrew Israelites, from what I understand. 

I will also note that the killer of the Australian women was originally sentenced for 12.5 years in prison (later overturned to 4.5 years). Many startled police officers who shot folks, especially, but not exclusively of black men, got off free. 

When the black panthers were formed black folks were still being lynched and police brutality was way more rampant. 

Seeing even a remote symmetry in these examples is quite a bit of a stretch.

[beecee]

15 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I strongly disagree. The only thing that is remotely as deluded might be black Hebrew Israelites, from what I understand. 

I admittedly don't know enough about the orginisation to offer much more, other then to say it was simply to illustrate that the extreme left does exist, along with the extreme right.

15 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I will also note that the killer of the Australian women was originally sentenced for 12.5 years in prison (later overturned to 4.5 years). Many startled police officers who shot folks, especially, but not exclusively of black men, got off free. 

I won't argue with any of that, other then to say my example of the expatriot Aussie woman being shot, is/was due to the freedom of any man and his dog owning a gun, in America, and why the coppers may have such itchy fingers. Yes, accepted that this is more prevelant with black men, hence my remark, "That by the way, in no way detracts from the BLM movement". 

Interesting point...The Australian strict gun laws were actually implemented by a conservative centre right government under John Howard the PM at the time.

Edited April 24, 2022 by beecee

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

and dare I say, also does the extreme right?

Show me.

 

1 hour ago, beecee said:

The black panthers are as valid an example as QAnon.

Show me. (the operative term being 'current') 

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Irrespective, some progress is being made

Show me.

 

[beecee]

26 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Show me.

Political correctness sometimes going from the sublime to the ridiculous...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Far-left_politics_in_the_United_States

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2020/02/16/anti-capitalism-on-us-university-campuses-the-culture-war-is-fought-dirty/?sh=115af0b5c4b7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party

 

Of course there are just as many extreme right wing orginisations also, the trick is recognising the extremes of both sides of politics.

26 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Show me. (the operative term being 'current') 

Already answered in my previous post to another.

26 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

 Show me.

Please don't quote me out of context.....I said....

2 hours ago, beecee said:

The moderates enveloping the desired politics like  climate change, (speaking globally) is held back by the fear factor being pushed by the extremes of the right, sprouting the extremes of the left as examples of what may happen. Irrespective, some progress is being made, sadly no where near enough in my country.

And of course we have the agreements at the Paris Accord, and efforts in alternative energy sources, of which I have posted many articles on. Like I said, "some" progress...I didn't say "enough" progress and particularly in my country. So please be more honest with your questions, and avoid asking questions of which you know the correct answers for, but are blinkered by your own personal agendas, and finally quote me in context. 

https://www.vox.com/the-weeds/2021/11/5/22765434/climate-change-global-warming-progress-glasgow-cop26

The world’s progress on climate change

Humanity has made some — not enough, but some — progress in fighting global warming.

extract:

Hannah Ritchie, a climate change researcher at the University of Oxford in the UK, summarized the big developments: “Coal is effectively dead in many countries. Renewable prices are falling rapidly. The price of solar fell by 89 percent in the past decade. Onshore wind fell by 70 percent. They’re now cheaper than coal and gas. To make this transition, we will need lots of energy storage. There’s good news there too: The price of batteries has fallen by 97 percent in the past 30 years.”

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

Most of us agree that it is not enough, OK? (particularly in my country, but that may change if we elect a Labor government at our elections next month)

Edited April 24, 2022 by beecee

[MigL]

23 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Show me.

Right above Beecee's words was the quote from JC which does just that.

24 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Show me. (the operative term being 'current') 

Advocating violence is never the solution; but you are right, it's not 'current'.

26 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Show me.

Well, black Americans don't feel the need to advocate violence to obtain equal rights, and Democrats are not eating babies anymore.
So some progress has been made.

[beecee]

https://theconversation.com/the-world-has-made-more-progress-on-climate-change-than-you-might-think-or-might-have-predicted-a-decade-ago-171787

The world has made more progress on climate change than you might think – or might have predicted a decade ago

Note for Peterkin: Still though, obviously not enough!!!!

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

In fairness the extreme left can be included as well. The issue with them is that, for example, when they scream we only have 12 years to live, no one on the left corrects them to give context to where the 12 years comes from, and rob the left of credibility in the eyes of any reasonable moderate who is well aware it is a real concern that needs to be addressed.

A few things here. I think as a whole society has lost the ability (not sure how much there was before, but now it is definitely less) to discuss nuance. The example you mentioned is pretty bad to make your point though, as the 12 year discussion has far more nuance at least in academia and left-leaning areas than on the right wing. 

Just to make sure we are on the same page, the 12 year deadline was part of an IPCC special report and it was not referring to the demise of the human species, but it was referring to the limiting global warming to 1.5 C which was a  seen as a critical factor.

In the report we will find quotes such as 

Quote

Climate-related risks for natural and human systems are higher for global warming of 1.5°C than at present, but lower than at 2°C (high confidence). These risks depend on the magnitude and rate of warming, geographic location, levels of development and vulnerability, and on the choices and implementation of adaptation and mitigation options (high confidence). (Figure SPM.2) {1.3, 3.3, 3.4, 5.6}

Quote

Future climate-related risks depend on the rate, peak and duration of warming. In the aggregate, they are larger if global warming exceeds 1.5°C before returning to that level by 2100 than if global warming gradually stabilizes at 1.5°C, especially if the peak temperature is high (e.g., about 2°C) (high confidence). Some impacts may be long-lasting or irreversible, such as the loss of some ecosystems (high confidence). {3.2, 3.4.4, 3.6.3, Cross-Chapter Box 8 in Chapter 3}

This is what is part of the discussion in academia and policy and you will note that not even very left leaning governments at any point mentioned death within a decade. I am actually not sure where your claim of a 12 year death deadline came from, but it really sounds like distortion from right wing pundits. Even in left-

I am not saying that the left is free from those mistakes, but the example you picked out does not really help your point. 

But to get back to my earlier point, it is true that outside (and sometimes also within) academia these things are almost never discussed with the necessary detail , and it is quite obvious why. Folks do not want to think. I get that, though in the past there was at least some level of perceived accountability with regard to falsehoods. But also folks were not as easily distracted by social media.

We also see it with things which have immediate impact or are just simple facts (Sandy Hook shootings, COVID-19 pandemic) where folks increasingly just design their own reality. Of course this changes the whole discourse as we now have a whole generation of kids growing up with cell phones and social media, and many of those will be in the positions were said nuance would have been important. Yet modern politics demonstrated that facts don't matter, so why shouldn't they choose the easier road?

[Peterkin]

How do any of those citations about stuff you don't like show that the extreme right includes many well-meaning, and desired agendas held by moderates?

4 hours ago, beecee said:

The extremes of the left, certainly include many well meaning, and desired agendas held by the moderates, and dare I say, also does the extreme right?

 

2 hours ago, beecee said:

Already answered in my previous post to another.

That the Black panthers are 1. comparable to Qanon and 2. current and 3. contributing to an escalation of extremism?

Oh, you mean this?

3 hours ago, beecee said:

I admittedly don't know enough about the orginisation to offer much more, other then to say it was simply to illustrate that the extreme left does exist, along with the extreme right.

No, I don't believe you have.

2 hours ago, beecee said:

Most of us agree that it is not enough, OK?

OK... So, does that mean 'the moderates' have failed to solve a problem that has been known globally for at least half a century, during which moderates had more power than they have now,  and that 'making some progress' amounts to SFA insofar as the fate of the planet is concerned, and is it therefore possible that the disgruntled greens have some basis to believe that moderates will not solve it through moderate means in time to prevent disaster?

 

 

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Right above Beecee's words was the quote from JC which does just that.

You mean the thing about some unspecified people screaming on a jet plane about 12 years? No, that really didn't show me the good will of the far right. Of course, it didn't show me anything much, since all I understood of it was that failing to correct inaccurate statements is only almost as bad as mass shootings.  

Edited April 25, 2022 by Peterkin

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Just to make sure we are on the same page, the 12 year deadline was part of an IPCC special report and it was not referring to the demise of the human species, but it was referring to the limiting global warming to 1.5 C which was a  seen as a critical factor.

 

Exactly. The actual context of the 12 years was the concern of a possible tipping point which could slowly lead to areas permanently flooding, people in many areas displaced and/or at greater risk etc. Very serious, Very needing to be addressed....but nothing close to a threat of imminent demise.

Nothing close to an existential threat, which was consistently suggested by many politicians on the left, and often touted as "the greatest threat to mankind", with the most extreme on the left teaching children that the world might end in 12 years.

Compare with the real existential threat, nuclear war, and all the people that have already been killed and displaced in wars since that report came out.

There was no "nuance" of any accuracy from the loudest from either side (there rarely is), but the claims of the political left were most bizarre. Politically they were left unchecked, often with the usual beat down of anyone attempting to be accurate. They had excuses for doing so, ranging from being fed a misleading interpretation of the report to believing they were morally justified for their lack of intellectual integrity.

 

Compare with Trump's "look it's snowing out...where's the global warming?" or words to that effect...equally stupid...certainly no more helpful...totally inaccurate...but in absolute terms closer to reality.

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Yet modern politics demonstrated that facts don't matter, so why shouldn't they choose the easier road?

Hopefully you find a third party that finds so much space they can drive right up the middle, start the hard work and make some progress.

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

since all I understood of it was that failing to correct inaccurate statements is only almost as bad as mass shootings.  

If I told you that was the extreme right meant in the context of global warming, maybe that might increase your understanding.

But I do realize it's quite common to assume that anyone, right, left or centre, holds a package of beliefs consistent with their position on political spectrum. I honestly don't know why, nor do I really understand why there seems to be some degree of truth to it.