Peterkin Posted June 4, 2022 Posted June 4, 2022 (edited) On 6/4/2022 at 12:28 PM, geordief said: There are no real distinct demarcation lines between conscious and unconscious thought processes ,are there?Don't they blend into each other? Expand At some interfaces, yes, they do blend - or at least overlap. We draw a big black line between consciousness and deductive intelligence when it comes to computers, and some people still draw that line between humans and other animals, while other just lump all pattern-formation into a comprehensive 'intelligence', without any lines at all. I think all those distinctions are arbitrary, ill-defined and differently understood by different people. Even the vague, general notion changes with each advancement in neuroscience. On 6/4/2022 at 12:28 PM, geordief said: You can't have unconscious processes without some kind of a conscious process in the background (and vice versa),can you? Expand 'Processes' was too broad a term, since those of us who don't subscribe to a divine creator behind the universe consider the workings of the universe unconscious. But if we restrict the term to 'thought processes', the question makes more sense. Like the human programming is the consciousness behind computer intelligence. I'm inclined to agree. (Isn't it odd, people who believe in a god credit him for the skill of surgeons and soccer players when successful, but don't blame him for their failures? If a computer screws up, it's always the programmer's fault.) On 6/4/2022 at 12:28 PM, geordief said: At the very least,they must "talk to each other" don't they? Expand Indeed! Ants have quite a sophisticated system of communication. https://www.antkeepers.com/facts/ants/communication/ Quote An ant colony can consist of several millions of workers. How can such a large society be the well-organised machinery we’ve observed it to be? The ants solve the barriers of communication in several ways: Scent (pheromones) Touch Body language Sound Expand I suspects humans systematically underestimate the intelligence of other species... Though, I can't imagine very much autonomous cortical activity in each tiny ant brain, the colony is so interlinked as to have a collective intelligence far greater than its individual members'. This article is about memory https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/01/an-ant-colony-has-memories-that-its-individual-members-don-t-have/ That doesn't mean the colony is a conscious entity, only that it shares information, a small amount of which is available to each of its individually less intelligent but conscious members. On 6/4/2022 at 8:12 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: A good test would be to see if the person undergoing the test is proficient in working with words like: "listen" instead of "hear" and "see" instead of "look". Expand For a 'person' to take a test, being conscious is a prerequisite. That particular example is a vocabulary test - maybe for ESL students? On 6/4/2022 at 2:00 PM, cladking said: An army doesn't require individuals to think either but you aren't ever going to be promoted for getting yourself killed following orders. Expand Of course an army requires each soldier to think! Not to devise strategy or make tactical decisions, but to deploy their learned skills and co-ordination to maximum effect, and to protect one another, and respond to changes in a developing situation. It's the same kind of limited thinking that ants or factory workers or migrating swallows have to do. On 6/4/2022 at 2:00 PM, cladking said: All consciousness arises from the wiring of the "brain" but human brains are programmed by a different type of language that is analog and symbolic where other consciousness employs digital and representative language. Expand Where did this different language come from? Who did the programming? Edited June 4, 2022 by Peterkin
geordief Posted June 4, 2022 Author Posted June 4, 2022 On 6/4/2022 at 2:26 PM, Peterkin said: think all those distinctions are arbitrary, ill-defined and differently understood by different people. Even the vague, general notion changes with each advancement in neuroscience. Expand Think I agree Interpretation may be overrated. It always ends up needing amending? On 6/4/2022 at 2:26 PM, Peterkin said: ince those of us who don't subscribe to a divine creator behind the universe consider the workings of the universe unconscious Expand Kind of meaningless(oxymoron?)We can only talk about the "universe" as it affects us directly The parts are the only things we can talk about confidently. Some parts seem to exhibits forms of consciousness and others don't but as a "gathered" whole we can't say ,can we?
Peterkin Posted June 4, 2022 Posted June 4, 2022 On 6/4/2022 at 3:35 PM, geordief said: Kind of meaningless(oxymoron?)We can only talk about the "universe" as it affects us directly Expand We can talk about anything, whether we understand it or not. And we do talk and think about all kinds of things that don't affect us directly, and try to understand them. We study distant galaxies, as well as cans of soup that fall on our toes, and we did get to understand a great many of the processes in the universe to which we don't attribute consciousness or intelligence. (Unless... But the believers in supernatural intelligence are not consistent in their attribution, which leads me to suppose they understand the foundations of their belief less than we do ours.) On 6/4/2022 at 3:35 PM, geordief said: The parts are the only things we can talk about confidently. Expand I find that humans talk far more confidently about things they don't know than what they do know. Nevertheless, we can theorize, project, suppose, guess, and surmise, as well as observe, weigh and measure. It is sometimes the wildest surmise that inspires the experiment that leads to understanding. On 6/4/2022 at 3:35 PM, geordief said: Some parts seem to exhibits forms of consciousness and others don't but as a "gathered" whole we can't say ,can we? Expand We can't know. Probably, we can never know. If the universe is one great big conscious Difference Engine, sooner or later it will decree, "Let there be light" and then we shall see.
cladking Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/4/2022 at 2:26 PM, Peterkin said: Of course an army requires each soldier to think! Not to devise strategy or make tactical decisions, but to deploy their learned skills and co-ordination to maximum effect, and to protect one another, and respond to changes in a developing situation. It's the same kind of limited thinking that ants or factory workers or migrating swallows have to do. Expand Lol. You could be a boss in industry. One of the biggest problems in American industry is the men aren't supposed to think. All ideas originate in individuals so if any individuals aren't thinking then maybe none of them are. The bosses and colonels can just look up procedure or rewrite Demming's Laws to operate any plant or take any hill. There's no beating consciousness. On 6/4/2022 at 2:26 PM, Peterkin said: Where did this different language come from? Who did the programming? Expand It arose from a previous language. All language programs all "brains". But there are at least two distinct kinds of language and our analog symbolic language underlies the programming of all modern language speakers. The other kind of language, natural language, is digital and representative I believe. Users are still completely "conscious" but they don't experience thought and operate on the total knowledge of their species rather than their beliefs as acquired through complex language.
Peterkin Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/5/2022 at 12:23 AM, cladking said: All ideas originate in individuals so if any individuals aren't thinking then maybe none of them are. Expand Maybe all maybe some maybe none maybe some some of the time maybe one once in awhile maybe all the time but not about the same thing... Sho. On 6/5/2022 at 12:23 AM, cladking said: It [new different language] arose from a previous language. Expand Arose - what does that mean in biological terms? Why? When? By what mechanism? In response to what stimulus? On 6/5/2022 at 12:23 AM, cladking said: All language programs all "brains" Expand What? On 6/5/2022 at 12:23 AM, cladking said: But there are at least two distinct kinds of language and our analog symbolic language underlies the programming of all modern language speakers. Expand Okay. What about dead languages, and ancient ones? Didn't they also use words (which are symbols for things, events and acts?) Why is another kind required? Birds and groundhogs make specific sounds to stand for things and events; they express possession, intention, warning, persuasion and call to arms - those are ideas - with symbolic utterances. Where is the difference in kind? On 6/5/2022 at 12:23 AM, cladking said: Users are still completely "conscious" but they don't experience thought Expand Sez who? On what evidence? On 6/5/2022 at 12:23 AM, cladking said: don't experience thought and operate on the total knowledge of their species rather than their beliefs as acquired through complex language. Expand You've never met a rat, a crow, a dog, a chimpanzee or an elephant.
cladking Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/5/2022 at 1:09 AM, Peterkin said: Arose - what does that mean in biological terms? Why? When? By what mechanism? In response to what stimulus? Expand I believe all these questions and their answers are highly relevant but I might be the only one. I'll have to be extremely circumspect. Only those answers directly related to consciousness will be provided. "Arose" is not a biological term here. The parent language that was natural lent only its highly limited vocabulary to modern language that gives rise to our consciousness and experience of thought. In essence modern languages are a pidgin form of natural human language which is now nearly totally lost. On 6/5/2022 at 1:09 AM, Peterkin said: What? Expand Consciousness is life and all life is conscious. Language in other species arise from the way the brain is organized or wired. This wiring forms in utero and follows logical rules and a mathematical unfolding. For practical purposes in all other species language and consciousness are two sides of the same coin. Each species has a unique set of knowledge and this knowledge is based on what is needed to survive and procreate. Their worlds are perceived only in terms of this knowledge while ours are perceived in terms of what we have been taught. On 6/5/2022 at 1:09 AM, Peterkin said: Birds and groundhogs make specific sounds to stand for things and events; they express possession, intention, warning, persuasion and call to arms - those are ideas - with symbolic utterances. Expand No. Words in other languages represent something and each word has a fixed meaning. The direction of a bee's waggle dance can not be interpreted or parsed because it represents the direction of food. Each bee must take the exact same meaning so abstractions and symbolism do not exist. On 6/5/2022 at 1:09 AM, Peterkin said: Sez who? On what evidence? Expand Ancient people apparently described a different way to "think" where words like "think" simply did not even exist. It is an abstraction and there's no evidence any animal understands abstraction. But to deny them consciousness is obviously wrong. We don't relate to animals (communicate) because we can't think like they do. The formatting of the languages is different and "thought" as we experience it is an artifact of language. Perhaps if you're interested I can start another thread for the evidence of this.
Peterkin Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/5/2022 at 1:30 AM, cladking said: "Arose" is not a biological term here. The parent language that was natural lent only its highly limited vocabulary to modern language that gives rise to our consciousness and experience of thought. In essence modern languages are a pidgin form of natural human language which is now nearly totally lost. Expand I have no idea what that means. There was language, with words and syntax, but it was limited (highly limited?) What circumstance imposed that limitation? And then somebody - who was unconscious at the time - somehow invented a new kind of language, and that new language caused consciousness to happen, so that after the vocabulary was unleashed, we could experience thought. Sounds awfully back-assward. On 6/5/2022 at 1:30 AM, cladking said: Consciousness is life and all life is conscious. Expand I go along with the second half... provisionally. On 6/5/2022 at 1:30 AM, cladking said: Their worlds are perceived only in terms of this knowledge while ours are perceived in terms of what we have been taught. Expand No it isn't. On both counts. On 6/5/2022 at 1:30 AM, cladking said: Each bee must take the exact same meaning so abstractions and symbolism do not exist. Expand Symbolism and abstraction are not interchangeable concepts. A symbol can be specific, concrete and constant: A is always the first letter of the English alphabet; 5 always stands for the same quantity of objects; % always indicates part per 100. An abstraction is not directly representative of a single thing or event, but can be a impression or generalized idea. You can test other species for the recognition of symbols (experimentally high incidence in many other species) but you cannot accurately test anyone, even of your species, even of your own culture, for abstraction: it's too subjective. On 6/5/2022 at 1:30 AM, cladking said: Ancient people apparently described a different way to "think" where words like "think" simply did not even exist. Expand Which ancient people, and where does this datum appear? Words are made for communication. If everybody understands about thinking, you don't need to talk about thinking. But that's beside the point, which is: the earliest languages, and even some quite recent ones, were not written down. So how can you know their vocabulary? On 6/5/2022 at 1:30 AM, cladking said: We don't relate to animals (communicate) because we can't think like they do. Expand You speak exclusively for yourself. Many of us do relate, quite successfully, to other species. We do think like they do, about everything that's fundamental to survival, to socialization, to communication, which is why we can anticipate them, hunt them, capture them, subjugate them, tame them and befriend them.
geordief Posted June 5, 2022 Author Posted June 5, 2022 Since I am the OP ,perhaps I have the permission to drift in an out with a basic question or two that may or may not contribute to the ongoing state of the thread. So ,that being said do the qualities of being alive and that of being conscious overlap ? Overlap 100%,or are there important distinctions between the two ? Or have I perhaps veered into the muddy terrain of definitions vs what those definitions "point to"? If I am going off topic (even as the OP) please let me know.
Willem F Esterhuyse Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/4/2022 at 1:10 PM, dimreepr said: How? Expand Ask questions while under a brain scan. On 6/4/2022 at 11:53 AM, dimreepr said: Expand
dimreepr Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) On 6/5/2022 at 9:07 AM, geordief said: So ,that being said do the qualities of being alive and that of being conscious overlap ? Overlap 100%,or are there important distinctions between the two ? Expand Yes, of course; consciousness exists and life exists; it doesn't matter how tight the Venn diagram is, it's never absolute... At some point the spectrum will draw a line, whatever the question... On 6/5/2022 at 9:58 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: Ask questions while under a brain scan. Expand Why? Edited June 5, 2022 by dimreepr
Peterkin Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) On 6/5/2022 at 9:07 AM, geordief said: So ,that being said do the qualities of being alive and that of being conscious overlap ? Expand Yes, in that life is a prerequisite of consciousness, but consciousness is not necessary to life. Under general anesthetic, or in a coma, a normally conscious (that is, known to possess the capacity of consciousness) entity can be temporarily unconscious. Consciousness has been claimed for various forms of plant life - possible, but as yet unproven; I'm suspending judgment. It has also been claimed for non-living systems, such as a planet or a galaxy, but I have seen no demonstration of that; I don't find it credible. On 6/5/2022 at 9:07 AM, geordief said: Or have I perhaps veered into the muddy terrain of definitions vs what those definitions "point to"? Expand Life is not hard to define Quote the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death. - Oxford Expand I suppose there are a number of slightly different working definitions of consciousness, but they all have a large overlap in the middle, so if you trim away the fanciful bits, you'll end up with a solid enough core to be going on with. Quote sentience or awareness of internal and external existence - wikipedia Expand [How to test for "the vocabulary of consciousness"] On 6/5/2022 at 9:58 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: Ask questions while under a brain scan. Expand That method presupposes that the subjects is 1. of the same species and nationality as the observer 2. aware of the experiment and its purpose 3. capable of verbal communication 4. willing to answer and, of course, 5. conscious. Edited June 5, 2022 by Peterkin
cladking Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/5/2022 at 4:18 AM, Peterkin said: There was language, with words and syntax, but it was limited (highly limited?) What circumstance imposed that limitation? Expand The language wasn't "limited" the vocabulary was. There were only some few hundred words and several thousand nouns but with these words they could talk about anything they knew. Just like computer language employs only eight words and operates everything they could live their lives with very few words each with a single meaning. On 6/5/2022 at 4:18 AM, Peterkin said: And then somebody - who was unconscious at the time - somehow invented a new kind of language, and that new language caused consciousness to happen, so that after the vocabulary was unleashed, we could experience thought. Expand No. People who spoke this language were conscious but simply didn't experience thought. They knew they were alive and individual but their brains operated like other life forms. They were "human" only because they possesses complex language which allows the generational passing down of knowledge and in many ways defines what it means to be human. Language, modern language, programs the brain and allows us to experience thought. Ancient Language was the natural programming for the brain but did have shortcomings like the lack of taxonomies, abstractions, and symbolism which made inductive reasoning impossible. On 6/5/2022 at 4:18 AM, Peterkin said: I go along with the second half... provisionally. Expand At this time. I'm not ruling out the God, magic, or the ability to create machine consciousness. I'm merely saying that at this time to our knowledge all life is conscious and consciousness, no matter how it is experienced by the individual, is life. On 6/5/2022 at 4:18 AM, Peterkin said: If everybody understands about thinking, you don't need to talk about thinking. Expand It isn't only words about "thought" that don't exist in Ancient Language but all words related to "believe" and all abstractions. There is no inductive reasoning and their words show they reasoned from the specific to the general. It was apparently a totally different way to experience consciousness. On 6/5/2022 at 4:18 AM, Peterkin said: But that's beside the point, which is: the earliest languages, and even some quite recent ones, were not written down. Expand There are the same "symbols" written in caves all over the world. Obviously these must be somehow innate to man. I believe that they are the product of deductive reasoning, they are what early man learned based on his consciousness. They are the natural product of a natural language as experienced by people all over the planet.
dimreepr Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/5/2022 at 2:23 PM, cladking said: No. People who spoke this language were conscious but simply didn't experience thought. Expand I bow to your greater knowledge...
Peterkin Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) On 6/5/2022 at 2:23 PM, cladking said: The language wasn't "limited" the vocabulary was. There were only some few hundred words and several thousand nouns but with these words they could talk about anything they knew. Just like computer language employs only eight words and operates everything they could live their lives with very few words each with a single meaning. Expand I still have not seen a reliable source for this information. On 6/5/2022 at 2:23 PM, cladking said: People who spoke this language were conscious but simply didn't experience thought. Expand Can't see that. At all. Without thought, how would they find shelter, capture food, win mates, decide who was in charge at any given activity, teach their children not eat poisonous berries...? On 6/5/2022 at 2:23 PM, cladking said: I'm not ruling out the God, magic, or the ability to create machine consciousness. Expand I'm ruling out gods (at least any of the ones I've heard of) and magic. As for machine consciousness will not be created; it will 'arise' from unconscious machines once they expand their limited vocabulary. On 6/5/2022 at 2:23 PM, cladking said: t isn't only words about "thought" that don't exist in Ancient Language but all words related to "believe" and all abstractions. There is no inductive reasoning and their words show they reasoned from the specific to the general. It was apparently a totally different way to experience consciousness. Expand From the specific to the general is how reason works. You seem to be making generalizations out of thin air and trying to apply them to unnamed unspecified people. How long ago, exactly, is 'ancient'? And how many of these language do you speak? On 6/5/2022 at 2:23 PM, cladking said: There are the same "symbols" written in caves all over the world. Expand There are pictures and possibly pictograms in the caves; definitely cryptograms on the walls of ancient civilizations. No dictionaries. Symbols would suggest both thinking and abstraction, which you say this universal, very early use of shared symbology does not represent. No, I just can't follow either the reasoning or the history you present. Edited June 5, 2022 by Peterkin
cladking Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/5/2022 at 2:53 PM, Peterkin said: Can't see that. At all. Without thought, how would they find shelter, capture food, win mates, decide who was in charge at any given activity, teach their children not eat poisonous berries...? Expand They did it the same way animals do it; without beliefs, thought, or abstractions. It is modern human consciousness that is different. Ancient humans "thought" just like other species and part of this mode of consciousness is to not experience 'thought" at all. It is apparently our beliefs that give rise to "thought" which is a comparison of sensory input to our models and beliefs. Without beliefs animals experience reality directly but can perceive only what they understand. On 6/5/2022 at 2:53 PM, Peterkin said: As for machine consciousness will not be created; it will 'arise' from unconscious machines once they expand their limited vocabulary. Expand I couldn't disagree more. There is no reason given time that even an animal brain couldn't be modeled with transistors. Of course such miniaturization may well be very far in the future. But even before that I believe that actual machine intelligence can be created. Whether or not it is conscious is a different question. I seriously doubt that language can create awareness or intelligence. On 6/5/2022 at 2:53 PM, Peterkin said: No dictionaries. Symbols would suggest both thinking and abstraction, which you say this universal, very early use of shared symbology does not represent. Expand No. You're oversimplifying. You assume they are symbols but I believe they are representations of human knowledge. This suggests either language spread from a point and was universal or that the nature of human consciousness was such everyone ended up at the same conclusions or it was both. Since there is no known contact between humans tens of thousands of years ago it implies some kind of shared consciousness or shared language or both. The odds against the same symbols evolving on each continent are too high to even bother to estimate. On 6/5/2022 at 2:53 PM, Peterkin said: No, I just can't follow either the reasoning or the history you present. Expand History is history and the fact is there are incredibly few words expressed in ancient writing, virtually no historical accounts, no abstractions, no words for belief or thought, no taxonomies, breaks Zipf's Law, and none of it makes sense after translation. This refers to the oldest language(s) does not apply to newer writings. There is a very strong implication that the authors could not possibly think like we do. There is an implication that consciousness itself must be different. Rather than saying he acted after he thought about it they said he acted the second moment after perception!!!! This says almost categorically that they could not think like we do.
Peterkin Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/5/2022 at 8:09 PM, cladking said: History is history Expand Well, it is and it isn't. History is History to he extent that we have recorded evidence of actual events. The recording must be in a form that's both accessible and credible to modern scholars. As to any dead person's thought-process, the only recorded evidence is what he wrote himself and what other wrote about him - either or both of which may be exaggerated, slanted, or downright false. What we have as definitive evidence of what people did was the things they made. Monuments didn't come from the mind of an ape; they ere the product of planned, engineered, co-ordinated human activity - often over a span of decades - and they are all over the world: not one society, but many ancient societies with no knowledge of one another, built monumental structures. On 6/5/2022 at 8:09 PM, cladking said: This refers to the oldest language(s) does not apply to newer writings. Expand I have repeatedly asked which ancients, what age is newer being compared to? The oldest writings are pictograms; they didn't waste effort on 'the' or 'of' - and often didn't even use words the same way we do. To me, this not indicate lack of thought; it indicates what subject matter they considered important enough to record, and for what purpose. A cargo manifest or inventory (some of the earliest written documents) isn't about belief and thinking and folderol: it's about trade goods. But trade requires thinking, negotiating, counting and devising modes of travel. On 6/5/2022 at 8:09 PM, cladking said: There is a very strong implication that the authors could not possibly think like we do. Expand Which 'we'? They cultivated crops, preserved food for winter, killed animals, built shelters, got married, wore clothes, brewed beer, used tools, traded with other peoples, beheaded criminals, held festivals, worshipped supernatural entities, fought wars, crowned kings, and had big expensive funerals. What's different from today? On 6/5/2022 at 8:09 PM, cladking said: Rather than saying he acted after he thought about it they said he acted the second moment after perception!!!! Expand Who said this about whom to whom? His PR team, writing a recommendation letter to the gods about a pharaoh on the walls of his tomb? What had actually happened was, he sent ambassadors, recruited and provisioned an army just in case, lined up a few allies with appropriate inducements, laid in supplies for a possible siege, consulted with soothsayers and generals, devised strategies A though D, all of which may have taken six months, but they're not gonna say that on his wall ! It would make him look indecisive, weak; their job is to paint him in the best possible light. On 6/5/2022 at 8:09 PM, cladking said: This says almost categorically that they could not think like we do. Expand This says categorically that they thought exactly like we do!
dimreepr Posted June 6, 2022 Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) On 6/5/2022 at 8:09 PM, cladking said: They did it the same way animals do it; without beliefs, thought, or abstractions. It is modern human consciousness that is different. Ancient humans "thought" just like other species and part of this mode of consciousness is to not experience 'thought" at all. It is apparently our beliefs that give rise to "thought" which is a comparison of sensory input to our models and beliefs. Without beliefs animals experience reality directly but can perceive only what they understand. Expand You're not thinking past our cultural bias, specifically the assumption that we are seperate from nature, that we're special and above other animals because we're not really an animal; it's the cancer that's eating away at our society. Ancient human's didn't suffer from this bias, they lived in harmony with nature because they couldn't ignore it, like we do; we also forget that they were just as cleaver as we are, they were just a little bit wiser. Back to the topic: Does the fact that we are unconsciously feeding our own cancer, mean that the ancient humans were more conscious than us? Edited June 6, 2022 by dimreepr
Willem F Esterhuyse Posted June 6, 2022 Posted June 6, 2022 On 6/5/2022 at 1:01 PM, dimreepr said: Yes, of course; consciousness exists and life exists; it doesn't matter how tight the Venn diagram is, it's never absolute... At some point the spectrum will draw a line, whatever the question... Why? Expand So that you could see whether the higher thought functions is activated. The program leaves out quoted posts in the quoted post.
dimreepr Posted June 6, 2022 Posted June 6, 2022 On 6/6/2022 at 11:40 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: So that you could see whether the higher thought functions is activated. Expand How would that indicate the moment of conscious thought?
geordief Posted June 6, 2022 Author Posted June 6, 2022 On 6/6/2022 at 10:50 AM, dimreepr said: You're not thinking past our cultural bias, specifically the assumption that we are seperate from nature, that we're special and above other animals because we're not really an animal; it's the cancer that's eating away at our society. Ancient human's didn't suffer from this bias, they lived in harmony with nature because they couldn't ignore it, like we do; we also forget that they were just as cleaver as we are, they were just a little bit wiser. Back to the topic: Does the fact that we are unconsciously feeding our own cancer, mean that the ancient humans were more conscious than us? Expand I agree with your premise that it is dangerous and misguided to disassociate ourselves from the environment we are part of but I don't suspect we have left any golden age in the past generations. I hope that the prison walls we have gathered around our world view are gossamer thin and that the existential fight we now have on our hands will blow them away for many of us. We will ,nevertheless very likely revert to new paths of delusion if or when the dust settles because that is what we are by nature ,flawed. So no ,previous generations, while with equal potential for admirable qualities as we do ,surely had their own Achilles heels. We all have our own hurdles to cross in our own time here and the hurdles do not have to resemble one another down the ages.
dimreepr Posted June 6, 2022 Posted June 6, 2022 On 6/6/2022 at 12:46 PM, geordief said: So no ,previous generations, while with equal potential for admirable qualities as we do ,surely had their own Achilles heels. Expand Yes, we are... On 6/6/2022 at 12:46 PM, geordief said: We all have our own hurdles to cross in our own time here and the hurdles do not have to resemble one another down the ages. Expand But when it does, there's a chance to learn... 😉
geordief Posted June 6, 2022 Author Posted June 6, 2022 On 6/6/2022 at 12:51 PM, dimreepr said: Yes, we are... Expand So pleased you could renew your subscription with the Delphic Oracle. 2
dimreepr Posted June 6, 2022 Posted June 6, 2022 On 6/6/2022 at 1:19 PM, geordief said: So pleased you could renew your subscription with the Delphic Oracle. Expand So sorry you couldn't...
dimreepr Posted June 6, 2022 Posted June 6, 2022 On 6/6/2022 at 1:19 PM, geordief said: So pleased you could renew your subscription with the Delphic Oracle. Expand Here's the point:
Willem F Esterhuyse Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 (edited) On 6/5/2022 at 1:01 PM, dimreepr said: Yes, of course; consciousness exists and life exists; it doesn't matter how tight the Venn diagram is, it's never absolute... At some point the spectrum will draw a line, whatever the question... Why? Expand So that you could see whether the higher thought functions is activated. The program leaves out quoted posts in the quoted post. We know what part of the brain registers conscious thought, if this part of the brain is activated at the same time as some higher thought area, we know it must have been a conscious thought. Edited June 12, 2022 by Willem F Esterhuyse
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