US-Roe vs Wade overturned

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

And lots of other things. Which may account for the 1,000,000+ Covid deaths in the country with the world's best medical expertise and highest medical cost.

To a large part that was caused by putting sycophants in charge. Scott Atlas (someone with no infectious disease expertise) pushed hard for a herd immunity strategy via infections. 

https://coronavirus.house.gov/news/press-releases/clyburn-trump-atlas-birx-redfield-herd-immunity-report

 

[Sensei]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:48 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

What makes a late term fetus less special than a premature child?

How many late-term fetal abortions are there in the US?

..I would be surprised if women/girl show up who have spent 5,6...9 months pregnant and ask for an abortion, just like that, without a good reason... there must be a very good reason to ask for such a thing after investing so much time and energy... that requires a cesarean section anyway.. so child can be alive after it.. if it he/she is able to..

For example: a seriously ill or terminally ill fetus that would not have survived anyway.... a potential danger to the woman..

In many posts you push "late term abortion".... while it is a meaningless minority...

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Sensei

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Sensei said:

In many posts you push "late term abortion".... while it is a meaningless minority...

Another way to say this is that it’s an emotionally manipulative exceedingly rare edge case where we all mostly already agree anyway regardless of which stance we take overall (life/choice).

[TheVat]

11 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

 

Now, the federal lawmakers could make laws to allow to allow medical professionals to abort with impunity, or some reasonable compromise so that your whole nation has access to abortions the way the majority think they should.

But they haven't, and they haven't.

 

Federal law cannot do what you think it can, because they are constrained by Constitutional law.  So, even a reasonable compromise (which Casey v PP, 1992 opened the door to) can be shot down by Dobbs v Jackson WHO until another court reverses it.  The official federal Constitutional position in my country is now that there is no fundamental right pertaining to abortion, in any form.  

Which means, for quite a while, only state legislators, backed by state judiciaries, can do what you suggest.  Which means the new patchwork, and poor women struggling to afford trips to another state, etc.

You Canadians are so nice and reasonable it may be hard to grasp what a colossal goatfuck we have down here.  We have two Supreme Court justices who it now appears lied in their confirmation hearings. 

[MigL]

Clearly, JC  is way over the top ...

9 hours ago, Sensei said:

In many posts you push "late term abortion".... while it is a meaningless minority...

 

But Peterkin is not ???

11 hours ago, Peterkin said:

White women, rejoice! You are the designated incubators of a doomed master race.

 

The solution to most all of America's problems ( and there are quite a few ) is not to point fingers at the other ideological side, but to get your house in order.
Your system of Government allows for people on both sides of the ideological debate to 'game' the system, and the polarization continues to build.
United 'States' is clearly not working; they are anything but united.

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

You Canadians are so nice and reasonable it may be hard to grasp what a colossal goatfuck we have down here. 

Thank you for the compliment and the agreement.

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

You Canadians are so nice and reasonable

Your brush is too broad. Baby strokes!

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Clearly, JC  is way over the top ...

11 hours ago, Sensei said:

In many posts you push "late term abortion".... while it is a meaningless minority...

 

But Peterkin is not ???

13 hours ago, Peterkin said:

White women, rejoice! You are the designated incubators of a doomed master race.

I mean, both are actually talking points pushed by an overlap of folks. While hyperbolically stated, white nationalism has an emphasis on conscripting white women into reproduction to sustain the white race (especially with a view on an eventual race war). Many in that group do think that abortion targets especially white babies (as they are perpetual victims). Moreover, these far-right groups also have "traditional" views on women, which does include their role as submissive child bearers (in interviews more derogatory terms came up). 

So in a way both things are certain anti-abortion folks think that they exist or (more on the fringe side), should exist. Of course the replacement theory (i.e. that white folks are being replaced by folks with more pigments) seems to have gotten into US mainstream (and frighteningly, also somewhat into Canada).

 

[MigL]

While this is the Politics section, it is still a Science forum.
We would be better off not dealing in hyperbole.

[Peterkin]

40 minutes ago, MigL said:

We would be better off not dealing in hyperbole.

So would America...

[J.C.MacSwell]

13 hours ago, Sensei said:

How many late-term fetal abortions are there in the US?

About 5,000 a year.

[Peterkin]

FYI

Quote

Abortions occurring at or after 21 weeks gestational age are rare. They are often difficult to obtain, as they are typically costly, time-intensive and only performed by a small subset of abortion providers. Yet these abortions receive a disproportionate amount of attention in the news, policy and the law, and discussions on this topic are often fraught with misinformation; for example, intense public discussions have been sparked after several policymakers have theorized about abortions occurring “moments before birth” or even “after birth.” In reality, these scenarios do not occur, nor are they legal, in the U.S.

Quote

“Late term” abortion typically refers to abortions obtained at or after 21 weeks, however it is not an accepted medical term, nor is there a consensus around to which gestational ages it refers. Members of the medical community have criticized the term “late-term” abortion, as it implies abortions are taking place after a pregnancy has reached “term” (37 weeks) or “late term” (>41 weeks) which is false. In fact, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) has written that “late-term abortion” has no medical meaning and should not be used in clinical or legal settings

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/

The more that fish is dragged across the trail, the worse it smells.

[J.C.MacSwell]

13 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

FYI

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/

 

14 hours ago, Sensei said:

 

In many posts you push "late term abortion".... while it is a meaningless minority...

 

 

I never actually used the term in this thread, at least to my knowledge. I have used the term "late term fetus", which I usually intended to mean full or near full term. But thanks Peterkin for the info, I will try to keep it in mind.

[Peterkin]

Information is readily available to all who care to know.

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

I mean, both are actually talking points pushed by an overlap of folks. While hyperbolically stated, white nationalism has an emphasis on conscripting white women into reproduction to sustain the white race (especially with a view on an eventual race war). Many in that group do think that abortion targets especially white babies (as they are perpetual victims). Moreover, these far-right groups also have "traditional" views on women, which does include their role as submissive child bearers (in interviews more derogatory terms came up). 

So in a way both things are certain anti-abortion folks think that they exist or (more on the fringe side), should exist. Of course the replacement theory (i.e. that white folks are being replaced by folks with more pigments) seems to have gotten into US mainstream (and frighteningly, also somewhat into Canada).

 

Well. That's beyond F'd up IMO and though I'm willing to acknowledge there is still  latent racism everywhere, that sounds like conspiracy theory territory to me.

Also off topic and not really relevant. I don't hear anyone advocating for different abortion rules for different races. Certainly not here.

[CharonY]

18 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

 

I never actually used the term in this thread, at least to my knowledge. I have used the term "late term fetus", which I usually intended to mean full or near full term. But thanks Peterkin for the info, I will try to keep it in mind.

I think it was outcrop of the morality side-discussion in which the question came whetehr abortion of full-term babies should be criminalized/banned. And the counterpoint from there was that these and other types of late-term abortion (without medical indication) simply do not exist in practice and legislation to that effect would just be moral grandstanding with potentially unintended consequences. Examples for that are criminalization of miscarriages. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

32 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Information is readily available to all who care to know.

I wouldn't have known to look. That's why the thanks and +1. (for the quoted portion of your post, not the comment)

23 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I think it was outcrop of the morality side-discussion in which the question came whetehr abortion of full-term babies should be criminalized/banned. And the counterpoint from there was that these and other types of late-term abortion (without medical indication) simply do not exist in practice and legislation to that effect would just be moral grandstanding with potentially unintended consequences. Examples for that are criminalization of miscarriages. 

Has anyone here advocated for that?

Edited June 27, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[CharonY]

11 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Well. That's beyond F'd up IMO and though I'm willing to acknowledge there is still  latent racism everywhere, that sounds like conspiracy theory territory to me.

Sorry to take it a bit off-topic, but I wanted to say that there are quite a few far right groups (including Proud Boys) that have this as part of their core ideology. They were really fringe, but the internet has given them prominence and recruitment options. The Great Replacement theory is even bigger than that, and has been feeding off white resentment for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement

Trump really just brought it into mainstream in the US, but has been latent everywhere (it falls under the broader umbrella of "you are not like us" and it is easier to pick up if you are a visible immigrant, I guess).

 

7 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I wouldn't have known to look. That's why the thanks and +1.

Has anyone here advocated for that?

Indirectly (or rather, unintentionally, perhaps), essentially if you criminalize abortion at a given stage, it becomes possible that if folks lose their child due to their action (say, taking drugs or causing an accident) can result in prosecution. This is not theoretical, as it actually has happened quite a bit already. Putting in criminal laws can expand these prosecutions. 

[Peterkin]

28 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I don't hear anyone advocating for different abortion rules for different races.

You may not hear it, but it was mentioned here as not-so-incidental outcome. Where states are making these Draconian laws, they have also gerrymandered voting districts, defunded or shut down family planning services, made access to birth control and prenatal care inaccessible to poor people and applied all law-enforcement unevenly among the population. It's no mystery what demographics have been, are and will continue to be most severely affected by new legislations and prosecutions. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

You may not hear it, but it was mentioned here as not-so-incidental outcome. Where states are making these Draconian laws, they have also gerrymandered voting districts, defunded or shut down family planning services, made access to birth control and prenatal care inaccessible to poor people and applied all law-enforcement unevenly among the population. It's no mystery what demographics have been, are and will continue to be most severely affected by new legislations and prosecutions. 

So...a bunch of white supremacists are conspiring to make it difficult for nonwhite fetuses to be aborted...that's quite a theory... 

[Peterkin]

8 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

So...a bunch of white supremacists are conspiring to make it difficult for nonwhite fetuses to be aborted...that's quite a theory.

Aside from your loose interpretation, which parts of my quoted remarks are factually incorrect?

[J.C.MacSwell]

35 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Aside from your loose interpretation, which parts of my quoted remarks are factually incorrect?

Who said they were? You're the one suggesting there's conspiracy behind it all.

19 hours ago, Peterkin said:

 

White women, rejoice! You are the designated incubators of a doomed master race.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by J.C.MacSwell

[Peterkin]

Not big on irony, huh?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/27/opinions/trump-rally-roe-white-life-miller-obeidallah/index.html

[Sensei]

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

 

17 hours ago, Sensei said:

How many late-term fetal abortions are there in the US?

About 5,000 a year.

How many of them are required to save women's lives?

Edited June 28, 2022 by Sensei

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Not big on irony, huh?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/27/opinions/trump-rally-roe-white-life-miller-obeidallah/index.html

 How does forcing black women to have their unwanted babies facilitate white people, when it actually facilitates the future black vote. If I were a racist politician with a view to future demographics I would be facilitating non-white abortions.

[Peterkin]

14 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

 How does forcing black women to have their unwanted babies facilitate white people, when it actually facilitates the future black vote. If I were a racist politician with a view to future demographics I would be facilitating non-white abortions.

Were you expecting logic from a Trumpette?

Anyway, the situation is more complicated and will have more and more dire ramifications than can be covered here, though I've expanded a bit on some of them in previous pages.