Why did God create this life?

[asd2791]

Why did God create this life?

This is a question on the minds of many, and I, as a Muslim, have a clear answer in the Qur’an. God Almighty says in the Qur’an: " [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed ".

So this life was created by God for testing, and the purpose of the test is: to determine the place of each person in the afterlife, a person in heaven and a person in hell, and heaven and hell are degrees as well.
Look at the students in schools, they go through many years of tests in order for their place in society to be properly determined, and also this life is a test to determine each person's place in the afterlife.
The test consists of several things, the most important of which are:
- Belief in God, so you cannot see God in life, because God tests you, do you believe in Him or not?
Belief in angels, heaven, hell, prophets....etc as well.
Doing the best things and letting go of the bad things.

But there is a question some are asking:
If God's knowledge is absolute, then he does not need to test us.
Yes, God knows the result of every person’s test without the test taking place, but God loves that he be excused.
- And if God places a man in hell without a test, that person will object that he did nothing to deserve hell, but after the test everyone will be convinced of his place.

[Genady]

Such a primitive story!

[asd2791]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

Such a primitive story!

I think the story is uncomplicated, which is good, so that all people can understand the story.
How many interesting and complex stories have you had in your life? one or two....
What about the rest of your life? They are ordinary and logical stories.

Usually the complexity and excitement is in "immaginary stories", not in reality.
But this story answers most of the questions that revolve in people's minds, for example: There are those who ask why there is good and evil?
The answer is from the Qur’an, God Almighty says: "Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good as trial; and to Us you will be returned."

[Bufofrog]

1 hour ago, asd2791 said:

Why did God create this life?

You first have to have evidence that God created life, before moving to your question.

[swansont]

On 5/7/2022 at 10:23 AM, Bufofrog said:

You first have to have evidence that God created life, before moving to your question.

!

Moderator Note

No, they don’t.

It is a premise of the discussion. If you don’t want to accept the premise, you are under no obligation to participate.

 

The topic is outlined in the OP. Off-topic posts have been hidden. Start new threads if you want to discuss other topics.

 

[Doctor Derp]

On 5/7/2022 at 2:36 AM, asd2791 said:

Why did God create this life?

 

 

Assuming that the spiritual world lacks logistical constraints of our material world. Assuming that the spiritual world lacks poverty and starvation. And is largely insulated from the harsh realities associated with needing food, water, shelter and other amenities for survival. 

The introduction of a material world, with its greater trials and difficulties, would appear to carry some intent. 

While many enjoy putting humanity down through focusing upon our own perceived flaws and shortcomings. It could be worthwhile to acknowledge that everyone alive today is an end product of millions of years of evolution. Even if we have not yet achieved the pinnacle of human existence as God intended. Perhaps another few million years will get us there.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Doctor Derp

[WADR]

On 5/7/2022 at 1:36 PM, asd2791 said:

Why did God create this life?

This is a question on the minds of many, and I, as a Muslim, have a clear answer in the Qur’an. God Almighty says in the Qur’an: " [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed ".

So this life was created by God for testing, and the purpose of the test is: to determine the place of each person in the afterlife, a person in heaven and a person in hell, and heaven and hell are degrees as well.
Look at the students in schools, they go through many years of tests in order for their place in society to be properly determined, and also this life is a test to determine each person's place in the afterlife.
The test consists of several things, the most important of which are:
- Belief in God, so you cannot see God in life, because God tests you, do you believe in Him or not?
Belief in angels, heaven, hell, prophets....etc as well.
Doing the best things and letting go of the bad things.

But there is a question some are asking:
If God's knowledge is absolute, then he does not need to test us.
Yes, God knows the result of every person’s test without the test taking place, but God loves that he be excused.
- And if God places a man in hell without a test, that person will object that he did nothing to deserve hell, but after the test everyone will be convinced of his place.

But in verse 51:56, Allah says he created mankind only to worship him - which suggests that god wants to be worshipped, rather than creating life as a test. This paints a picture of a needy god driven by ego.

In fact, the "test" idea is a kind of circular reasoning because if no one exists there is no need to test them. The test only becomes possible once humanity has been created. So creating them simply in order to test them seems irrational, especially if the consequences of failure are so great, and the circumstances that lead to failure are engineered by god himself.

[Sensei]

On 5/7/2022 at 2:36 PM, asd2791 said:

This is a question on the minds of many, and I, as a Muslim, have a clear answer in the Qur’an. God Almighty says in the Qur’an: " [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed ".

So this life was created by God for testing, and the purpose of the test is: to determine the place of each person in the afterlife, a person in heaven and a person in hell, and heaven and hell are degrees as well.

Remembering how Muslims around the world reacted to the collapse of the World Trade Center, this will be a very quick test..

Astonishingly, even those who are regularly paid by the U.S. and their countries are completely dependent on foreign aid.

[Dis n Dat]

On 5/7/2022 at 4:36 PM, asd2791 said:

Why did God create this life?

This is a question on the minds of many, and I, as a Muslim, have a clear answer in the Qur’an. God Almighty says in the Qur’an: " [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed ".

So this life was created by God for testing, and the purpose of the test is: to determine the place of each person in the afterlife, a person in heaven and a person in hell, and heaven and hell are degrees as well.
Look at the students in schools, they go through many years of tests in order for their place in society to be properly determined, and also this life is a test to determine each person's place in the afterlife.
The test consists of several things, the most important of which are:
- Belief in God, so you cannot see God in life, because God tests you, do you believe in Him or not?
Belief in angels, heaven, hell, prophets....etc as well.
Doing the best things and letting go of the bad things.

But there is a question some are asking:
If God's knowledge is absolute, then he does not need to test us.
Yes, God knows the result of every person’s test without the test taking place, but God loves that he be excused.
- And if God places a man in hell without a test, that person will object that he did nothing to deserve hell, but after the test everyone will be convinced of his place.

 

Did you really get any valid response to this post at all in this thread? If there were any, I would like to hear about it from you. 

Nevertheless, I am thinking that this verse does not really speak about why God created life or the birth of life. It's a verse that's speaking to you as a reader, not as an absolute ontology of life itself. 

[Intoscience]

Assuming god exists and created life, to ask why maybe a unique human inquisitive trait and may not apply to god or any other living being.

What other life considers why it exists? Do we know, can we know? 

Humans have a desire for a sense of purpose, it's the seeking for purpose that drives us to enquire of the why's (especially when it comes to existence in general).

The reality could be that things just are, with no reason or no purpose and no god.   

[dimreepr]

On 11/2/2022 at 12:49 PM, Dis n Dat said:

 

Did you really get any valid response to this post at all in this thread? If there were any, I would like to hear about it from you. 

Nevertheless, I am thinking that this verse does not really speak about why God created life or the birth of life. It's a verse that's speaking to you as a reader, not as an absolute ontology of life itself. 

Instead of resurrecting long dead thread's that should be left in peace; please start one of your own, so we can get a better handle on your position as regards religion/philosophy and the flavour you favour.

 

[Peterkin]

On 9/30/2022 at 11:34 AM, Doctor Derp said:

It could be worthwhile to acknowledge that everyone alive today is an end product of millions of years of evolution. Even if we have not yet achieved the pinnacle of human existence as God intended. Perhaps another few million years will get us there.

The evolution part is supported by evidence. The rest relies on assumptions that are not supported by evidence:

1. Evolution is directional

2. goes upward - and 'up' means something significant other than complexity 

3. that it has a 'pinnacle' or terminus

4. that humans are heading toward it

5. that humans are 'intended' to reach that terminus

6. that humans are 'intended' by a god

So, half science half faith. Fusion sometimes works, for some purposes, in some situations - but I wouldn't count on it in matters of religious dogma.  

[iNow]

13 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

1. Evolution is directional

2. goes upward

This is incorrect 

[Phi for All]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

This is incorrect 

17 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

The evolution part is supported by evidence. The rest relies on assumptions that are not supported by evidence:

All of them are incorrect assumptions not supported by evidence.

[iNow]

I stopped reading when the openers were so obviously false  

[Phi for All]

23 minutes ago, iNow said:

I stopped reading when the openers were so obviously false  

Peterkin put a colon before listing the incorrect assumptions. I missed it the first couple of times I read it, too.

On 9/30/2022 at 9:34 AM, Doctor Derp said:

Even if we have not yet achieved the pinnacle of human existence as God intended. 

This is the first time I think I've heard the argument that God purposely made flawed humans with the idea of using evolution as a mechanism to fix them eventually. What a mysterious way to create something! 

 

[Dis n Dat]

30 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

This is the first time I think I've heard the argument that God purposely made flawed humans with the idea of using evolution as a mechanism to fix them eventually. What a mysterious way to create something! 

Flawed humans? I don't think that's what's meant but I could be wrong. 

Nevertheless, what if there is no "fixing" or "flaw" and it's just the way it is while evolution is just part of it all? Could that be the reason theists have been discussing evolution since such a long long time ago? 

[Phi for All]

5 minutes ago, Dis n Dat said:

Flawed humans? I don't think that's what's meant but I could be wrong.

Failing to achieve a "pinnacle" isn't a flaw? Interesting.

How about our many physical design flaws, like our eyes, our backs, our teeth, our knees, our misrouted nerves?

9 minutes ago, Dis n Dat said:

Nevertheless, what if there is no "fixing" or "flaw" and it's just the way it is while evolution is just part of it all? 

This is the way I lean, of course, but I don't need a god to have created this life.

11 minutes ago, Dis n Dat said:

Could that be the reason theists have been discussing evolution since such a long long time ago? 

I think this is an assumption on your part, and I think it's mostly wrong. Don't you mean atheists discussing evolution for such a long time?

 

[Dis n Dat]

2 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Failing to achieve a "pinnacle" isn't a flaw? Interesting.

How about our many physical design flaws, like our eyes, our backs, our teeth, our knees, our misrouted nerves?

I understand what you are saying here, but what would be your idea exactly of a perfect human being? The "pinnacle" as said above?

3 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

This is the way I lean, of course, but I don't need a god to have created this life.

16 minutes ago, Dis n Dat said:

I understand that you don't need a God from your stance. But it could just be the way it is, with God.

4 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I think this is an assumption on your part, and I think it's mostly wrong. Don't you mean atheists discussing evolution for such a long time?

 

Not at all. Theists discussed evolution long long ago. It's not just conjecture, I can give you references if you wish. No problem. 

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

All of them are incorrect assumptions not supported by evidence.

Evolution is not supported by evidence? I grant the "millions of years" is incorrect, but ignored it, allowing as it can contain multiples of millions.

 

3 hours ago, iNow said:

This is incorrect 

Well, I thought positing a 'pinnacle' to evolution and putting humans on the way toward it, assumed that evolution proceeds from 'down' to 'up', as expressions of value, rather than mere complexity or diversity. If I accept "up", I would have to accept "top" and I can't do that.  

Edited November 4, 2022 by Peterkin

[asd2791]

On 10/10/2022 at 1:05 AM, WADR said:

But in verse 51:56, Allah says he created mankind only to worship him - which suggests that god wants to be worshipped, rather than creating life as a test. This paints a picture of a needy god driven by ego.

In fact, the "test" idea is a kind of circular reasoning because if no one exists there is no need to test them. The test only becomes possible once humanity has been created. So creating them simply in order to test them seems irrational, especially if the consequences of failure are so great, and the circumstances that lead to failure are engineered by god himself.

When I tell you I want to test you
You will immediately say: In what are you going to test me?
I will tell you: in history, or mathematics, or... or...

Likewise, life is a test
If anyone asks what is the test?
The answer is: the test is in the worship of God
In Islam, obeying every command that God has commanded us is worship.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Evolution is not supported by evidence?

I was trying to explain your list of incorrect assumptions, but obviously clarity is not your aim. I withdraw my attempt to help.

3 hours ago, Dis n Dat said:

I understand what you are saying here, but what would be your idea exactly of a perfect human being? The "pinnacle" as said above?

I think that's a red herring. I commented about the idea of Doctor Derp's capital G God making imperfect humans who would evolve to eventually fix their flaws. It was a new argument to me, and makes less sense the more I think about it. Evolution just doesn't work like that. 

3 hours ago, Dis n Dat said:

I understand that you don't need a God from your stance. But it could just be the way it is, with God.

So instead of accepting the evidence that changes in allele frequency within a population over vast amounts of time produce the results described by the Theory of Evolution, you think I should believe there's an unobservable, omnipotent, and omniscient deity making it all work? Amazing patience this god must have to make it all look like it took billions of years when they could have whipped it up instantly!

 

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Dis n Dat said:

I understand that you don't need a God from your stance. But it could just be the way it is, with God.

It could also be just this way, but with orcs.

It could also be just this way, but with unicorns.

It could also be just this way, but with Puff the Magic Dragon. 

There’s no functional difference here since none of them have any evidence of existence, none whatsoever in their favor.

All you’ve done is add a useless, made up, fictional variable with zero explanatory power. Simplified:

Us: “2+2=4”

You: “Yeah, but what if 2+2+God=4?”

Us: “That’s fucking stupid. Go away, Dumbass.”

[Dis n Dat]

7 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I think that's a red herring. I commented about the idea of Doctor Derp's capital G God making imperfect humans who would evolve to eventually fix their flaws. It was a new argument to me, and makes less sense the more I think about it. Evolution just doesn't work like that. 

10 hours ago, Dis n Dat said:

It's not a red herring. I don't know who this Doctor Derp is but I am asking you directly. If you don't have the exact workings of a perfect human being, how could you say humans are flawed? If there is no measurement standard, what are you measuring against? 

7 hours ago, Phi for All said:

So instead of accepting the evidence that changes in allele frequency within a population over vast amounts of time produce the results described by the Theory of Evolution, you think I should believe there's an unobservable, omnipotent, and omniscient deity making it all work? Amazing patience this god must have to make it all look like it took billions of years when they could have whipped it up instantly!

Now this one is a red herring.  

Why do you think God if existing cannot have or should not have such amazing patience? Is that based on a "could have"? Your personal "could have"? What's your thesis on why it "could not" be as it is?

And you assumed that I was assuming theists discussed evolution long ago and I told you "no, they actually did". So what do you have to say about that? 

2 hours ago, iNow said:

It could also be just this way, but with orcs.

It could also be just this way, but with unicorns.

It could also be just this way, but with Puff the Magic Dragon. 

There’s no functional difference here since none of them have any evidence of existence, none whatsoever in their favor.

All you’ve done is add a useless, made up, fictional variable with zero explanatory power. Simplified:

Us: “2+2=4”

You: “Yeah, but what if 2+2+God=4?”

Us: “That’s fucking stupid. Go away, Dumbass.”

Nice. Thanks. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Dis n Dat

[Arete]

On 11/4/2022 at 7:49 PM, Dis n Dat said:

It's not a red herring. I don't know who this Doctor Derp is but I am asking you directly. If you don't have the exact workings of a perfect human being, how could you say humans are flawed? If there is no measurement standard, what are you measuring against? 

Virtually all human traits are evolutionary trade-offs between two deleterious states, which are usually environmentally dependent e.g.; 

• Higher birth weight increases infant survivability in environments with unpredictable resource allocation, but increases likelihood of mother/baby death during childbirth. 
• Increased immune function decreases the likelihood of infectious disease, but also increases inflammation susceptibility and reduces growth rates. 
• Twin births increase fecundity in high resource environments, but decrease fecundity in low resource environments. 
• Adaptations for enhanced cognition in humans increases susceptibility to both autism and schizophrenia. 
• Temporal trade-offs in resource allocation to reproduction and growth predispose humans to aging related disease and cancer later in life.
• etc and so on. 

Virtually every environment a population is adapting to is changing. This creates a lag between the present trait state and the present environment known as evolutionary mismatch e.g.,

• The thrifty gene hypothesis and increased rates of obesity/diabetes in Western society. 
• Sedentary lifestyles and osteoporosis.
• The hygiene hypothesis and increasing rates of autoimmune disease as microbial diversity in human environments is decreased. 
• The smoke alarm hypothesis and the prevalence of phobias and anxiety. 

Ergo, in many intrinsic ways human bodies are a inherently compromised. Unless one is using a very unconventional definition of perfection, the human organism cannot be described as perfect. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Arete