How best to stop excluding trans kids from sports?

[iNow]

Other than creating a standalone 3rd category for all 6 transgendered athletes out there, and while maintaining maximum fairness to cis-gendered young athletes already competing at the secondary school levels, what would be the best way to avoid excluding trans children who wish to compete?

One proposal is to eliminate assigned sex from the selection process and set divisions based on skill and ability (similar to how junior varsity is split from varsity, or division 1 from division 2), but that is also an imperfect approach. 

So, what might be the best approach assuming inclusion of trans kids in sports is the desired outcome?

[zapatos]

In grammar school, trans girls should compete with cis girls, and trans boys should compete with cis boys. While I suppose there will be exceptions, this should be the general rule.

In secondary school this general rule will continue except at the varsity level. Varsity level is where winning or losing could potentially have a significant impact on a person's life, such as being drafted in some sports, winning scholarships, etc. 

At the varsity level there should be additional rules such as handicapping, rules regarding level of transition attained, particular sports it applies to, etc. I am purposely not adding detail here because it is not my area of expertise and therefore would not be meaningful.

The two general guidelines I am following are:

1. Transgendered students must have reasonable opportunities just as cisgendered students do.

2. Not everyone gets to do everything. Just like Title IX doesn't guarantee women will have the exact same sporting opportunities the men have, it does ensure a reasonable amount/type of opportunities.

I am no expert and this is likely not my final thoughts on the matter. It does however seem like a reasonable possibility and a reasonable place to start.

[MigL]

Why not pressure your government , federal or state level, that it has no business legislating kid's recreational activities ?
Doesn't your Government have better things to do ? Like legislating abortion rights, and gun laws ?
In Canada girls can play hockey with boys, if they can make the cut. And many do.
Girls are even allowed to join the boy scouts.

Why must the US always do things the hard way ?

[OldChemE]

Difficult subject, so lets start with the easiest part:  There should be an "Unlimited" class for every sport, in which superior ability is the only thing that matters.  For example, in the US, the National Football League should be open to all genders.  Same for Baseball, Golf, etc.  BUT in the unlimited class there should be no adjustments.  For example, the NFL limits the number of players on each team (49 if I recall correctly?) so, regardless of gender a player would have to make the cut by being better than the 50th best.

Below the unlimited class I have trouble imagining anything that will seem fair to all involved.  A skill/ability division, with its faults, is still probably the best.

[zapatos]

 

Quote

In Canada girls can play hockey with boys, if they can make the cut. And many do.
Girls are even allowed to join the boy scouts.

This is not about girls playing on boys teams, it is about trans kids playing.

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why not pressure your government , federal or state level, that it has no business legislating kid's recreational activities ?

Because I feel the opposite.

Edited May 31, 2022 by zapatos

[iNow]

8 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why not pressure your government , federal or state level, that it has no business legislating kid's recreational activities ?
Doesn't your Government have better things to do ? Like legislating abortion rights, and gun laws ?
In Canada girls can play hockey with boys, if they can make the cut. And many do.
Girls are even allowed to join the boy scouts.

Why must the US always do things the hard way ?

Good topics for other threads. No matter what way the US system does things, this thread is about what approaches might be best. 

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

This is not about girls playing on boys teams, it is about trans kids playing.

Correct. Thank you. 

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

Good topics for other threads. No matter what way the US system does things, this thread is about what approaches might be best. 

Solutions instead of obstacles.

[MigL]

All I'm saying is that, at the recreational level, there should be no gender requirements. IOW, neither male or female, nor cis or trans.

A lot of other places have that. Why don't you ?

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

All I'm saying is that, at the recreational level, there should be no gender requirements. IOW, neither male or female, nor cis or trans.

A lot of other places have that

Agreed

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why don't you ?

That’s a much longer, much separate, and much off-topic discussion that I suspect you and I both would quite enjoy quite a bit more IRL whilst breaking bread together. 

[zapatos]

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

All I'm saying is that, at the recreational level, there should be no gender requirements. IOW, neither male or female, nor cis or trans.

 

I disagree. If a 12 year old boy's team is playing against a 12 year old girl's team in a soccer rec league, a lot of girls are going to get hurt and have a difficult time winning.

Quote

A lot of other places have that. Why don't you ?

What places don't allow teams to be made of all girls?

Edited May 31, 2022 by zapatos

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

I disagree. If a 12 year old boy's team is playing against a 12 year old girl's team in a soccer rec league, a lot of girls are going to get hurt and have a difficult time winning.

Why? Do all 12-year-old boys play dirty soccer? I don't believe that. If everyone abides by the rules, nobody needs to get hurt. Also, at 12, girls tend to be a little ahead on weight and co-ordination. But what's it matter, if all the teams are gender-neutral, selected by size and ability? 

At this point the trans kids haven't even been allowed to make any physical changes; they're playing as whatever gender they were assigned at birth.

[beecee]

How best to stop excluding trans kids from sports?

Good question! Nothing should stop anyone, including transgenders from playing the sport that they wish. As long as of course they do not physically or biologically create an advantage for themselves, and disadvantage anyone else and follow the guide lines of the sporting administrators and scientific and medical advice to that end. 

The problem exists though, that scientific and medical knowledge is far from certain in this subject. Perhaps do get a clearer picture, we may need to wait a decade or two. Thankfully, though, the aspect of transgenders is relatively rare, and the percentage of those that want to take part in a sport, obviously even rarer.

In summing, striking the balance of fairness and not having an advantage in sport, and the rights of the transgender athletes, will not be easy, and pleasing every one, particularly male and female competitors, will be even harder. 

My thoughts actually go back to the covid 19 hey days, and the screams and whinging from anti vaxxers losing their rights with mandatory vaccinations, against the rights of all other citizens to remain healthy and safe by the best means possible. I see a somewhat parallel there.

4 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Why? Do all 12-year-old boys play dirty soccer? I don't believe that. If everyone abides by the rules, nobody needs to get hurt. Also, at 12, girls tend to be a little ahead on weight and co-ordination. But what's it matter, if all the teams are gender-neutral, selected by size and ability? 

At this point the trans kids haven't even been allowed to make any physical changes; they're playing as whatever gender they were assigned at birth.

 

4 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Why? Do all 12-year-old boys play dirty soccer? I don't believe that. If everyone abides by the rules, nobody needs to get hurt. Also, at 12, girls tend to be a little ahead on weight and co-ordination. But what's it matter, if all the teams are gender-neutral, selected by size and ability? 

As was linked to and showed as fact in the other similar thread, boys and girls play both rugby codes together up until the age of 10, where under the existing rules, following medical and scientific advice, they then separate and segregate according to sex under scientific medical advice, particularly in body contact sports.  

The gender neutral and selection by size and ability claim is a furphy, particularly when obtaining late teens and adulthood, and as explained and reasoned in the other similar thread.

4 hours ago, Peterkin said:

At this point the trans kids haven't even been allowed to make any physical changes; they're playing as whatever gender they were assigned at birth.

 Probably the best outcome as far as I can see.

7 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Solutions instead of obstacles.

Under scientific and medical advice of course, although this as yet has not not fully decided and is somewhat limited.

[Danijel Gorupec]

7 hours ago, OldChemE said:

Difficult subject, so lets start with the easiest part:  There should be an "Unlimited" class for every sport, in which superior ability is the only thing that matters.  For example, in the US, the National Football League should be open to all genders.  Same for Baseball, Golf, etc.  BUT in the unlimited class there should be no adjustments.  For example, the NFL limits the number of players on each team (49 if I recall correctly?) so, regardless of gender a player would have to make the cut by being better than the 50th best.

Below the unlimited class I have trouble imagining anything that will seem fair to all involved.  A skill/ability division, with its faults, is still probably the best.

This is also my opinion (the existence the 'unlimited' class), but I see drawbacks. For example, drug assisted vs drug non-assisted sports (should there be several 'unlimited' classes depending on the amount of drugs allowed, or should drug usage, like insulin, be completely banned?).  Further, soon there will be cyborg kids around - what about them (we already had complains about runners with prostheses).

[beecee]

5 minutes ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

 (should there be several 'unlimited' classes depending on the amount of drugs allowed, or should drug usage, like insulin, be completely banned?). 

110% certainty they should be banned!!!! at least according to existing IOC and other sporting bodies laws.

[Danijel Gorupec]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

110% certainty they should be banned!!!! at least according to existing IOC and other sporting bodies laws.

Yet, some people cannot live without insulin shots - and it would unfair to ban them from sports (as you know, sadly, many top athletes today are registered as diabetic - is this fair or not?)

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

Yet, some people cannot live without insulin shots - and it would unfair to ban them from sports (as you know, sadly, many top athletes today are registered as diabetic - is this fair or not?)

Diabetic athletes are exempt from the ban

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

How best to stop excluding trans kids from sports?

Good question! Nothing should stop anyone, including transgenders from playing the sport that they wish. As long as of course they do not physically or biologically create an advantage for themselves, and disadvantage anyone else and follow the guide lines of the sporting administrators and scientific and medical advice to that end. 

The problem exists though, that scientific and medical knowledge is far from certain in this subject. Perhaps do get a clearer picture, we may need to wait a decade or two. Thankfully, though, the aspect of transgenders is relatively rare, and the percentage of those that want to take part in a sport, obviously even rarer.

In summing, striking the balance of fairness and not having an advantage in sport, and the rights of the transgender athletes, will not be easy, and pleasing every one, particularly male and female competitors, will be even harder. 

My thoughts actually go back to the covid 19 hey days, and the screams and whinging from anti vaxxers losing their rights with mandatory vaccinations, against the rights of all other citizens to remain healthy and safe by the best means possible. I see a somewhat parallel there.

 

As was linked to and showed as fact in the other similar thread, boys and girls play both rugby codes together up until the age of 10, where under the existing rules, following medical and scientific advice, they then separate and segregate according to sex under scientific medical advice, particularly in body contact sports.  

The gender neutral and selection by size and ability claim is a furphy, particularly when obtaining late teens and adulthood, and as explained and reasoned in the other similar thread.

 Probably the best outcome as far as I can see.

Under scientific and medical advice of course, although this as yet has not not fully decided and is somewhat limited.

We know your thoughts on this and I'm pretty sure iNow created this thread to go in another direction. Either contribute in the spirit of the question or butt out.

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

Further, soon there will be cyborg kids around - what about them (we already had complains about runners with prostheses).

I don't believe anyone has claimed that they were incorrectly assigned at birth as human, when they are in fact an android and wish to transition to their true mechanical self. No, I don't see a major threat to school sports from cyborgs. If a child with artificial limbs competes successfully, so what? He couldn't have done it without learning the skill and putting in the practice, just like every other competitor.  Nobody's going to replace their child's normal feet with robotic ones, just to win at football. 

Where children play in mixed sports from an early age, they tend to become better team players and more tolerant, understanding people. It's most important in schools to encourage these traits, rather than aggression and winning at all cost. Two ways to encourage the participation of trans kids is to encourage the participation of all kids, without artificial barriers and arbitrary distinctions. If the team is mixed by gender, it can accommodate four genders as readily as tw - and be the better for it as a team.

Quote

While mixed teams are often a logistical necessity, they offer additional, compelling benefits. Girls who access sport on equal terms with boys can achieve stellar success. Take England rugby international Danielle Waterman, who started to play at Minehead Barbarians with her brother and has gone on to win more than 50 caps, or former women’s cricket skipper Charlotte Edwards, who said in a recent interview that she found it completely “normal and brilliant” to hone her skills as captain of a boys’ team at the age of 11.https://www.independentschoolparent.com/school/mixed-team-sports/

Another approach is to change the sports, rather thn players. As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, we made this stuff up in the first place; we can unmake it, change it, remake it and make new ones any time we like, in any way we like. Why not simply alter the games to make them more inclusive?

Quote

There are sports whose rules demand a flexible strategy that is based not only on physical superiority of strength or speed, for example, but on a joint effort that makes use of skills such as quick thinking, teamwork, and social interaction. These types of sports are especially useful for male and female students to exercise cooperation frequently within a competitive context with their peers regardless of gender, which is crucial to create times of playing together that lead to gender equity. Here are five examples. https://observatory.tec.mx/edu-news/mixed-sports-education

Not just under 10 years, but all through school, students could benefit from co-operation and inclusion. Maybe fewer of them would grow up reptilian.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Peterkin
wrong word

[iNow]

3 hours ago, beecee said:

… according to existing IOC and other sporting bodies laws.

3 hours ago, Danijel Gorupec said:

many top athletes today are…

This thread rather clearly is intended to focus on kids sports, not elite or professional ones. Appreciate your help in maintaining that focus. 

[zapatos]

9 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Why?

Because boys are generally faster, stronger, and more aggressive. Soccer is a contact sport.

I speak from experience coaching 12 year old boys and having them play against 12 year old girls. Nothing dirty. That's just how boys play.

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

Because boys are generally faster, stronger, and more aggressive. Soccer is a contact sport.

I speak from experience coaching 12 year old boys and having them play against 12 year old girls. Nothing dirty. That's just how boys play.

I think I disagree on that one. In Germany school sports is much less competitive, but we often played in mixed teams until graduation.

But even in clubs (where the real competition is) kids are sorted according to skill (where eventually boys will be on top) but the most talented girls will play with boys until age 17 (to foster abilities as much as possible).

I have not found anything suggesting higher injuries.

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, beecee said:

As was linked to and showed as fact in the other similar thread,

!

Moderator Note

This is clearly NOT the other similar thread, and it would really be appreciated if you'd respect that. Please don't start repeating those arguments here, they've been heard.

 

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I think I disagree on that one. In Germany school sports is much less competitive, but we often played in mixed teams until graduation.

But even in clubs (where the real competition is) kids are sorted according to skill (where eventually boys will be on top) but the most talented girls will play with boys until age 17 (to foster abilities as much as possible).

I have not found anything suggesting higher injuries.

No question that some girls can compete with (and out-compete) some boys for quite a while. They should have that option. I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise.

The example I presented was a boy's team playing against a girl's team.

My point was that we need segregation by sex as an option. Timid, slight 12 year old girls still want to get out and run around in the sun with their friends playing sports. At young ages playing sports is generally more of a social event than the thrill of competition or the desire to increase skills. 

A small and timid young girl is not going to want to mix it up with aggressive boys. She is not going to play soccer if her only option is to play against boys.

There is a reason young boys and girls tend to separate into sex based play groups.

[iNow]

8 minutes ago, zapatos said:

My point was that we need segregation by sex as an option. Timid, slight 12 year old girls still want to get out and run around in the sun with their friends playing sports.

Why wouldn’t different classes / divisions already account for this?

Sex isn’t the determining factor, IMO. Skill and aggressiveness are. Sex is just a lazy approximation for an outcome we can achieve in other ways. Do you disagree? 

[TheVat]

Aww..  My least favorite thread just reproduced.  They're so cute and harmless looking when they're young.   Pretty soon we'll have a mating pair and the transgender threads will overrun Australia.  Maybe, with luck, they eat cane toads or rodents.

Seriously, I think the thread title is a self-answering question. Let trans/NB kids play on whichever team is the best fit with their size, strength, and level of aggressive.  And there are always some kids who won't fit anywhere in a given sport.  I was never going to be a football (American def.) player, and I got over that easily.  Children's psyches are not Fabergé egg shells, unless adults tell them they are all the time.