How best to stop excluding trans kids from sports?

[MigL]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Not everyone thinks that cis women should have their rights supersede the rights of transgender women.

For a couple of thousand years ( since the original Olympic competitions in Greece ), women have not been alloowed to participate in sports.
Finally in the last century, they have their own leagues and competitions, and are not second class citizens anymore ( somewhat ).
Now some men, who identify as women, want to go back to the 'good old days', where cis women did not compete in sports, but stayed in the kitchen and raised kids, by competing in women's leagues and competitions, to the detriment of the cis women athletes.

By all means, find a fair way to include trans athletes; but NOT at the expense of women being able to compete fairly.

As I said, my opinion, and OT in this thread; obviously yours differs ...

Edited May 31, 2022 by MigL

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, Outrider said:

But generally with boys the emphasis is in teaching them not to be a predator. In girls not to be prey.

That's not just up to the father; that's the job of mothers too, and teachers and coaches and sport and film and music idols. Nor is predation and bullying restricted to males against females. Mixed sports would go some way toward preventing that.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Peterkin

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Now some men, who identify as women, want to go back to the 'good old days', where cis women did not compete in sports, but stayed in the kitchen and raised kids,

No offense but can you provide a citation? I'd like to know who has suggested this.

[iNow]

It’s amazing how many more posts are off topic than on.

Just… never mind. 

[Peterkin]

18 minutes ago, iNow said:

Just… never mind. 

I think the kernel subject has been covered - several times - and the solution is simple, but there are two main objections: some people can't even entertain the concept of changing sports the way they have come to understand sports, and some feel that men who identify as women are still, nevertheless, men, who have a physical advantage. Whether the age cut-off is 10 or 12 or 15 years of age, at some point, they're convinced that all persons identified as male at birth will, at some point, have an insurmountable advantage over all athletes correctly identified at birth as female, and their presence in women's sports would ruin those sports for women. I see no way past that wall.  

[iNow]

1 minute ago, Peterkin said:

I see no way past that wall.  

Thank you. Since that is the question this thread intends to pursue, I assume you will stop contributing now. 

[Peterkin]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

I assume you will stop contributing now.

I think I should, having said the little I know and think.

[zapatos]

I feel like trans kids in sports is similar to inter-racial marriage, gay marriage, women voting, equal pay, women in the military, and others ad nauseam. 

People don't like change and feel like the current issue is one of a kind which will wreck havoc on some part of society. Like all the other issues we just need to keep pounding away, showing them in the media and in television, making them one of us  instead of the "other". We'll have small victories early on, followed by bigger ones, until the tide turns and transgender humans can finally join the rest of the humans as equal.

The fact that so many organizations are already addressing trans people in sports is a good sign. As always, the conservatives will drag out the inevitable as long as they can.

[iNow]

19 minutes ago, zapatos said:

As always, the conservatives will drag out the inevitable as long as they can.

Or pass laws making their participation illegal like my governor did last week. 

[StringJunky]

+1 @zapatos but I can't give anymore  today.

[MigL]

That's pretty good, Zap.
Imply that all those who don't support your viewpoint are similar to those whe are against  'inter-racial marriage, gay marriage, women voting, equal pay, women in the military, and others ad nauseam'. 
There have been two cases where trans women dominated the field in international professional competitions  ( weightlifting and swimming ), and have people all over the world asking for better rules.
When you consider that is 33% of the six trans athletes ( according to INow ) in professional competitions, you get an idea of how much damage can be done to women's sports.
Myself, I don't agree with including those 6, but ruining it for approx 3.5 billion cis women. But I do agree that a way should be found, through rule changes, to include trans athletes.

But that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is about teen recreational sports, and ways to include trans teens.
My suggestion was to vote in responsible Government that doesn't have exclusionary agendas. While you said teen boys are stronger, faster, more aggressive than teen girls, which would mean you support separating trans girls from cis girls, and trans boys from cis boys.
In Canada, and most developed countries, we have no such separation, and Government keeps out of recreational sports for kids.
This problem, like gun control, is mostly an American problem.

If I have misunderstood your position, please take this opportunity to elaborate on your opinion, without the condescending tone that mischaracterizes those with dissimilar opinions.

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

That's pretty good, Zap.
Imply that all those who don't support your viewpoint are similar to those whe are against  'inter-racial marriage, gay marriage, women voting, equal pay, women in the military, and others ad nauseam'. 

I never got the sense he was taking a side swipe at anybody. Are you taking umbrage at this?

Quote

People don't like change and feel like the current issue is one of a kind which will wreck havoc on some part of society. 

This is a general statement about the collective human condition.

[MigL]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

I never got the sense he was taking a side swipe at anybody. Are you taking umbrage at this?

I don't know, so I asked him to elaborate; without the comparisons.

[StringJunky]

1 minute ago, MigL said:

I don't know, so I asked him to elaborate; without the comparisons.

OK.

[zapatos]

37 minutes ago, MigL said:

If I have misunderstood your position, please take this opportunity to elaborate on your opinion, without the condescending tone

I'm sorry you saw my comment as condescending, but I stand by my viewpoint that those other issues do seem similar to me. I guess we'll know if I was wrong in about 50 years.

39 minutes ago, MigL said:

Myself, I don't agree with including those 6, but ruining it for approx 3.5 billion cis women.

I think part of our disagreement is that you are (IMO only) overestimating the impact of trans kids in sports.

[MigL]

10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

55 minutes ago, MigL said:

Myself, I don't agree with including those 6, but ruining it for approx 3.5 billion cis women.

I think part of our disagreement is that you are (IMO only) overestimating the impact of trans kids in sports.

The 3.5 billion was in the section regarding professional competitive athletes.

I, and most all my countrymen and women, have no problem whatsoever with kids playing recreational sports, no matter hat gender they identify with.
And neither does our Government.

[zapatos]

32 minutes ago, MigL said:

The 3.5 billion was in the section regarding professional competitive athletes.

I guess I also think you overestimate the impact of transgender professional competitive athletes.

[iNow]

37 minutes ago, MigL said:

And neither does our Government

Governments are made up of people. Some people agree with us that government should butt out. Others feel their autocratic tendencies and lust for power are best served by stoking fears and hatreds of “others” in the outgroup.

Apparently it’s easy to make people angry toward and afraid of trans kids, so the latter group appeals to larger numbers of voters by excluding trans kids. That latter group is the modern day Republican Party, the GOP, the one where Donald Trump remains to this day the leader at the top and who continues to be their most powerful figure (him and Tucker Carlson, followed by Ron DeSantis).

It is GOP legislators and GOP governors in GOP states, the same ones who are banning books, making it illegal for schools to mandate masks during pandemics, pushing to arrest teachers for teaching about slavery or mentioning the word gay, and ensuring that AR-15s can now be used to hunt Bambi… it is them who are passing these laws about transgendered restrooms and transgendered kids in sports. 

It’s not “our government” doing it. It’s focused in the portions of the US that are totally controlled by republicans, and they’re doing it because that’s what their voters have been convinced they want. Their voters are the ones who’ve been told to be scared of trans kids in sports, and their voters show up in greater number when they have been told who to hate and what to be afraid of. 

[iNow]

From Axios this morning… we’re only 5 months into the year, and already more than 300 ant-trans bills have been introduced. 

“More than 300 anti-LGBTQ+ bills have reportedly already been intro'd this year, with many targeting trans youth specifically. That means 2022 could be the worst year for anti-trans legislation, ever. Some measures would prevent gender-affirming care or bar trans athletes from school sports, while others would restrict bathroom access.”

This ISN’T about protecting girls sports / female athletes, even though that’s the hook which seems to snag so many people who are mostly just watching this issue from the sidelines. 

[MigL]

Then I guess I don't understand the point of this thread.

Whether people accept trans adults or not, is not the issue, nor are competitive professional sports.
Kids are not mature mentally, and are bound to be confused about their sexuality or gender identity, and they certainly need acceptance until they can figure things out. On this we definitely agree; kids should be allowed to be kids.

But if you can't pass laws allowing kids this 'freedom' when Democrats are in power, and you certainly will not be able to if Republicans regain power, when exactly are you going to be able to implement any suggestions from this thread ?

[Peterkin]

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

Kids are not mature mentally, and are bound to be confused about their sexuality or gender identity, and they certainly need acceptance until they can figure things out.

How long were you confused about your own gender identity? At what age did you finally decide?

The evidence, so far, is that kids are not confused about their gender identity, although many do experiment, since it's not a clear M/F choice, but rather a process of finding one's place in a spectrum.

They know, usually by about age 3, what gender they are. They also understand by then, or within a year or two, what their society expects of that gender, what clothes and habits are associated with that gender in their culture. Even if they have been wrongly assigned at birth, by age 7, they generally act the role associated with boys or girls, just like their contemporaries who were assigned correctly. https://caringforkids.cps.ca/handouts/behavior-and-development/gender-identity

 

Adults who don't like change, don't like complication, don't like to be wrong - and most particularly those who refuse to accept that their precious little girl is really a boy, or their big handsome son is really a big ugly daughter - act on the cherished fiction of immature impulsiveness or persuasion by psychologists, or whatever story will let them have their own way, even at the cost of their child's happiness.  https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/26/us/texas-transgender-parenting-court-case/index.html

51 minutes ago, MigL said:

But if you can't pass laws allowing kids this 'freedom' when Democrats are in power, and you certainly will not be able to if Republicans regain power, when exactly are you going to be able to implement any suggestions from this thread ?

Why this 'freedom' rather than simply freedom? Democrats are not 'in power' - far from it. They have the White House , a very small majority in Congress and smaller minority in the Senate. They can pass almost no federal legislation with those numbers - and certainly no bill without amendments and modifications. Even if they could, they have little or no power to affect state legislatures, which have vast jurisdiction over civil issues. 

One thing citizens can do locally is exert influence over their boards of education, and bring more cases of personal liberty vs state law before the courts. Local courts, obviously, not the present Supreme Court.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Then I guess I don't understand the point of this thread.

If I’m going to advocate and try bringing people to my side on this issue as I am doing, I need to seek guidance from people like y’all who are smarter than me to highlight my current blind spots and partner with me to identify potentially better approaches. 

[Peterkin]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

If I’m going to advocate and try bringing people to my side on this issue as I am doing, I need to seek guidance from people like y’all who are smarter than me to highlight my current blind spots and partner with me to identify potentially better approaches. 

How autonomous is your board of education? How conservative are the parents in your school district? What community recreational facilities exist independently of state control? I think your most effective approach would be at the grass roots level - if the grass on your side of the fence is green enough. If private schools can make their own rules, I imagine a church or youth organization could make its own rules, too: set up mixed leagues for soccer and baseball and accept every child who wants to try out a team, no matter what the governor says. Of course, if you're living a desert, you just have to move to where grass can grow.

[iNow]

4 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

How autonomous is your board of education?

Too often overruled by statewide legislation. 

[Peterkin]

I know I was supposed to butt out... but I like children, don't approve of bigoted adults making them miserable or depriving them of opportunities to become their best self.