How best to stop excluding trans kids from sports?

[MigL]

36 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Why do you guys keep electing such morons ?

I don't think Ontario has anything to brag about in that department. We only look like we're ahead, because we're lagging behind in the race backward.

You sound a little miffed that Douggie won the election, while Steven DelWho? and Andrea (Whiner) Horwath quit their leaderships 😃 .
Incidentally, I did not vote, because the PC candidate in my riding went to school with my older brother; and then, with me ( yes, he failed ). So, I don't presume to have any right to complain about the results.

[iNow]

The Biden administration is actively seeking to expand Title IX regulations that seek to prevent harassment and discrimination in sports, but while they touch peripherally  on the topic of sexual identity and gender, they mostly side step the central trans participation issue we've been discussing here.

Some say banning trans kids is about keeping girls sports fair, while others say it's solution in search of a problem since there are so exceedingly few examples of trans kids competing in sports across the US (and those who do are already doing so within local guidelines and policies). 

 

https://time.com/6190460/title-ix-changes-biden-trans-athletes/

Quote

The proposed regulations clarify that “preventing someone from participating in school programs and activities consistent with their gender identity would cause harm in violation of Title IX.” But the Education Department largely sidestepped the question of what rights transgender athletes are granted under Title IX—an issue that has been raging at the state level. Instead, the Education Department said it would engage in a separate rulemaking process to address Title IX’s application to athletics and students’ eligibility to participate in male or female sports teams.

“The department recognizes that standards for students participating in male and female athletic teams are evolving in real time,” Cardona said Thursday. “That’s why we decided to do a separate rule-making on how schools may determine eligibility, while upholding Title IX’s non-discrimination guarantee.”

Since 2020, 18 states have enacted laws banning transgender athletes from playing on sports teams aligned with their gender identity—laws that were not in place when the Obama-era Title IX guidance, issued in 2016, stated that denying trans students access to a sports team aligned with their gender identity violated Title IX. That letter was revoked under the Trump Administration.

The debate over the rights of trans girls and women to play sports aligned with their gender identity has become a political live-wire in upcoming midterms in November, with conservative political operatives pledging to spend millions on advertising to use the issue to rally their base and woo potential swing voters.

Supporters of trans sports bans argue they are meant to keep girls’ and women’s sports fair, and are not intended to discriminate against any vulnerable group. But critics argue they are a solution in search of a problem, pointing to the fact that there are very few examples of trans students competing in sports across the U.S., and those who do compete are already subject to local policies. 

 

Here's the letter: https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/t9nprm.pdf

[paulsutton]

On 5/31/2022 at 12:47 AM, iNow said:

Other than creating a standalone 3rd category for all 6 transgendered athletes out there, and while maintaining maximum fairness to cis-gendered young athletes already competing at the secondary school levels, what would be the best way to avoid excluding trans children who wish to compete?

One proposal is to eliminate assigned sex from the selection process and set divisions based on skill and ability (similar to how junior varsity is split from varsity, or division 1 from division 2), but that is also an imperfect approach. 

So, what might be the best approach assuming inclusion of trans kids in sports is the desired outcome?

In the UK American Football is open to everyone

So Men, Women and Trans people,  equally as long as they can play the sport then they are able to play.

Granted this is at senior level, but it is in contrast to Rugby.

I am sure the same rules apply to Youth Football.

Paul

 

 

[iNow]

4 hours ago, paulsutton said:

In the UK American Football is open to everyone

So Men, Women and Trans people,  equally as long as they can play the sport then they are able to play.

I knew UK was rapidly deteriorating into a dystopian hellscape, but I had NO IDEA it was already so far gone. 

OMG… The horror!!  

[mistermack]

7 hours ago, paulsutton said:

In the UK American Football is open to everyone

So are men allowed to play in womens teams ? 

[paulsutton]

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

So are men allowed to play in womens teams ? 

I am not sure we  have two women on our team, granted one has left due to other commitments,but  the sport does seem open to all

I am sure the NFL made a financial contribution to the cause in the US a few months ago as I gave it a mention on the team forum.

We are at grassroots level,  

Paul

7 hours ago, iNow said:

I knew UK was rapidly deteriorating into a dystopian hellscape, but I had NO IDEA it was already so far gone. 

OMG… The horror!!  

I am not an expert on the specifics.

 

 

 

 

[TheVat]

Wait, this is American style tackle football, with both men amd women on teams?  That seems...problematic.  

[swansont]

13 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Wait, this is American style tackle football, with both men amd women on teams?  That seems...problematic.  

What, specifically, is the problem?

[TheVat]

Just now, swansont said:

What, specifically, is the problem?

Wondering if there are leagues with some sorting by weight and BMI, or similar.   Some gender disparity between body size, bone density and mass, explosive (fast-twitch) muscle strength....seems like you would need some limits to prevent injuries.  American football is already pretty hard on bodies and brains, even among the mutually brawny.  

[zapatos]

I played in an open soccer league, both men and women. No limits to prevent injuries. Women just didn't play if they couldn't compete at that level. Just like men didn't play who couldn't compete at that level.

[swansont]

50 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Wondering if there are leagues with some sorting by weight and BMI, or similar.   Some gender disparity between body size, bone density and mass, explosive (fast-twitch) muscle strength....seems like you would need some limits to prevent injuries.  American football is already pretty hard on bodies and brains, even among the mutually brawny.  

OTOH, if you’re not built for a position, or the sport, you tend not to play it. (That doesn’t just apply to gridiron football)

[paulsutton]

I would guess another response to this would be to look at facilities generally,  having  really good, clean, changing rooms, showers and other facilities are essential for ALL sports teams.   Changing rooms for home / away team,  officials and coaches is a good idea.   Multiple changing rooms means more space is needed but at least more teams can then play on the same ground.

For adult teams a physio room is really useful too, saves setting up in a changing room,  which takes up space,   hence having changing rooms with built in shower area,  the shower area can double up before the game.

Ensure they are well maintained, and yes that means PAYING people to keep them maintained, but some responsibility lies with the teams looking after what they have.

Having helped with both senior and junior sports teams over the years, some places are great,  others are the opposite side of that,  best described as awful.

Bad facilities will put anyone off playing sport.

Sports teams need investment, especially at grass roots level.

[mistermack]

5 hours ago, zapatos said:

I played in an open soccer league, both men and women. No limits to prevent injuries. Women just didn't play if they couldn't compete at that level. Just like men didn't play who couldn't compete at that level.

The question is though, should the womens game be abolished ?

[zapatos]

6 minutes ago, mistermack said:

The question is though, should the womens game be abolished ?

Definitely not. Generally speaking everyone should have a chance to play somewhere, and most women can't compete with men at the more competitive level of sports that emphasize size/strength/speed.

[mistermack]

So are we talking about a womens game, alongside an open game, or a mens game as well? 

I guess it will just evolve and we'll know what works when it arrives. 

[StringJunky]

If the right legislative seeds are planted now, in perhaps 50 years they'll be where gay people are now in terms of general acceptance. These kinds of changes have to be with a mind towards the long game. Future generations born without the baggage and prejudice can accept them as normal.

[mistermack]

To be honest, I think there are aspects that time won't wash away. Even the wording of the title is a problem. Trans kids. There are some kids who know exactly that their nominal sex is wrong, but most wouldn't have a clue. And I wouldn't trust the sex-change industry to keep out of it till they are old enough to know what they are doing. 

Taking the scalpel to kids should be the very last resort, reserved for the most clear-cut cases only. How can anybody know if a kid isn't being pushed into something, by an over zealous counsellor or relative? 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

To be honest, I think there are aspects that time won't wash away. Even the wording of the title is a problem. Trans kids. There are some kids who know exactly that their nominal sex is wrong, but most wouldn't have a clue. And I wouldn't trust the sex-change industry to keep out of it till they are old enough to know what they are doing. 

Sex change industry?

How old is “old enough”? How many reassignment surgeries are done on minors? Compared to, say, breast augmentation surgeries? There doesn’t seem to be any uproar about the latter.

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

Taking the scalpel to kids should be the very last resort, reserved for the most clear-cut cases only. How can anybody know if a kid isn't being pushed into something, by an over zealous counsellor or relative? 

Do you have evidence that this happens?

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

So are we talking about a womens game, alongside an open game, or a mens game as well? 

 

Where I was playing they had all three.

 

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

To be honest, I think there are aspects that time won't wash away. Even the wording of the title is a problem. Trans kids.

I know it sounds 'woke' to some, but there is a real effort in special needs areas to stop defining people by their disabilities or certain aspects like being non-binary. For example, to stop saying a Down Syndrome kid and just say he is a kid who happens to have Down Syndrome. I agree the term 'trans kids' is a problem as that then makes being trans such an outsized part of who they are, instead of them being kids who like sports, school, riding bikes, whatever. When people are labeled there is a tendency to forget all the other things about that person.

I agree with @StringJunky though that this will for the most part go away after a while. Just like being gay, in a mixed marriages, an atheist, an unwed mother, and all the other things that are no longer an issue for most people.

Edited April 29, 2023 by zapatos

[iNow]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

I wouldn't trust the sex-change industry to keep out of it 

Yes, we surely cannot trust all those “doctors” with their “medicine” and years upon years of “training” to do what’s right FOR their patient in consultation WITH their patient and WITH the parents of those patients over the course of SEVERAL years working together to find the healthiest path and treatment regimen for these children. They’re just looking for a quick score and to make a quick buck! 🙄

Edited April 30, 2023 by iNow

[mistermack]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Sex change industry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Gender_Identity_Development_Service 

Quote : " Subsequent to the Bell report it was revealed that 35 psychologists had resigned since 2016, including six psychologists who claimed there was "over-diagnosis" of gender dysphoria and a push for early medical intervention,[14] because "psychologists fear being branded transphobic."[15]"  

And : " In November 2018, the parents of patients complained in a letter to the Trust board about the alacrity at which diagnoses were rendered, leaving them unable to intervene in these "life-altering decisions".[11] This led to the commissioning of an internal report by Dr David Bell, which concluded in February 2019 that the service was "not fit for purpose", as children were being prescribed experimental drugs "after a few sessions and without proper investigation of their cases[...] under pressure from transgender rights groups".                             

This is not exactly rare stuff. I don't keep everything I read to provide links to, but this is fairly typical stuff. 

And it's not just the UK   :  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11921113/More-half-parents-trans-kids-say-pressured-transitioning-child.html  " America's strong-arming gender clinics REVEALED: Most parents of trans kids say they were 'pressured' into transitioning their child — even when it left them worse off"

[iNow]

Fair. AND. Balanced 

[swansont]

19 hours ago, mistermack said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Gender_Identity_Development_Service 

Quote : " Subsequent to the Bell report it was revealed that 35 psychologists had resigned since 2016, including six psychologists who claimed there was "over-diagnosis" of gender dysphoria and a push for early medical intervention,[14] because "psychologists fear being branded transphobic."[15]"  

And : " In November 2018, the parents of patients complained in a letter to the Trust board about the alacrity at which diagnoses were rendered, leaving them unable to intervene in these "life-altering decisions".[11] This led to the commissioning of an internal report by Dr David Bell, which concluded in February 2019 that the service was "not fit for purpose", as children were being prescribed experimental drugs "after a few sessions and without proper investigation of their cases[...] under pressure from transgender rights groups".                             

This is not exactly rare stuff. I don't keep everything I read to provide links to, but this is fairly typical stuff. 

Except you didn’t/won’t actually answer the question, and just restate your assertion that it’s not rare.

Note that “medical intervention” is not synonymous with reassignment surgery 

OTOH, there’s this

Genital surgeries performed on minors are rare, but surgeons say interest is growing. The Komodo analysis of insurance claims found 56 genital surgeries, including vaginoplasty and other procedures, among patients ages 13 to 17 with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis from 2019 to 2021. 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-care/

Less than 20 a year in the US.

 

19 hours ago, mistermack said:

And it's not just the UK   :  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11921113/More-half-parents-trans-kids-say-pressured-transitioning-child.html  " America's strong-arming gender clinics REVEALED: Most parents of trans kids say they were 'pressured' into transitioning their child — even when it left them worse off"

If you read past the headline you’ll find that they say “The survey of 1,655 parents, published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, found that more than half of the parents who were referred to gender therapists said they felt directed to put their kids on medical treatments or change their wardrobe.”

(emphasis added)

Further, if you read the paper, it says Parents were asked whether they had felt pressure from a “gender clinic or specialist” to transition their child socially or medically. Of the 390 parents who answered this question, 51.8% (N = 202) answered “yes,”

so that article claim is a lie (color me shocked) - it’s not half of the 1655, it’s half of 390, and so it’s less than an eighth of the number surveyed. And we don’t have an indication of how many just bought new clothing. (New clothing, to me, doesn’t seem like a big deal.)