How best to start including men who are victims of abuse by women into the public discourse (Johny Depp vs Amber Heard)

[koti]

I think todays jury verdict will have and already is having an impact on how we perceive victims of domestic abuse especially in the main stream media. The shift has been already seen in the last weeks during the trial, Amber Heard getting stripped of her role in Aquaman 2 and Johny Depp getting a role proposal in the new Sherlock Holmes movie. The 15 mln dollars she has to pay for defamation seems a nice adition to JD case but certainly the main gole has been achieved by the Johny Depp team besides that. What do you think? 

[zapatos]

I didn't really follow the trial, but I thought Depp sued (and won) for libel, not domestic abuse.

[StringJunky]

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. The confounding factor is that they can both act which obscures the veracity of both positions. No doubt this will be turned into a political spectacle. Probably been a good career move for both of them in their respective interests: Depp's probably marketable again movie-wise and Heard will be the new figurehead for the #MeToo movement or other cause celebre. Personally, I think they both just spoilt, petulant people that feel they can sue on a whim and they are probably equal in blame.

[Peterkin]

How best to start including men who are victims of abuse by women into the public discourse ?

Not with those two people as the standard-bearers for their sex.

Domestic violence is a serious issue. This is a frivolous (if pathetic) celebrity lawsuit.

[TheVat]

Like everyone who is not Amber Heard or Johnny Depp, I have no idea what really went down in their brief marriage.  Which means there has already been way too much public discourse.

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Like everyone who is not Amber Heard or Johnny Depp, I have no idea what really went down in their brief marriage.  Which means there has already been way too much public discourse.

Public discourse is their oxygen... and gravy.  

[CharonY]

On a more general level, a big issue are gender stereotypes. Traditional views of men being strong and dominant in a relationship and as such conventional wisdom assumes that men cannot be abused by women. This obviously also ignores mental abuse, as traditionally men are just supposed to suck it up. In other words, society needs to rethink traditional view of feminity and masculinity and arrive at a more integrative view that accepts and helps abused men more broadly.

[MigL]

This is the second trial that J Depp has taken part in.
He brought a libel lawsuit against a British paper that had accused him of being a wife abuser, and it was thrown out as the evidence agreed with the accusation.
This trial was more along 'entertainment' rather than fact finding.
I guarantee that she appeals the judgment and will not pay anything.

Both came off looking like spoilt idiots, but this is Hollywood, all publicity is good, and gets you movie roles.

[koti]

7 minutes ago, MigL said:

This is the second trial that J Depp has taken part in.
He brought a libel lawsuit against a British paper that had accused him of being a wife abuser, and it was thrown out as the evidence agreed with the accusation.
This trial was more along 'entertainment' rather than fact finding.
I guarantee that she appeals the judgment and will not pay anything.

Both came off looking like spoilt idiots, but this is Hollywood, all publicity is good, and gets you movie roles.

I think Johny Depp brought up this lawsuit to clear up his name and that is already happening, I think the money he gets from her is secondary for him, he will be able to make much more than he can get in court once the industry will un-blacklist him and he'll be able to get major roles again. I agree that this trial was grotesque but the fact that JD is a victim of abuse by a manipulative predator still stands.

[koti]

11 hours ago, Peterkin said:

How best to start including men who are victims of abuse by women into the public discourse ?

Not with those two people as the standard-bearers for their sex.

Domestic violence is a serious issue. This is a frivolous (if pathetic) celebrity lawsuit.

“And six years later, the jury gave me my life back. I am truly humbled… I hope that my quest to have the truth be told will have helped others, men or women, who have found themselves in my situation, and that those supporting them never give up.”

— Johnny Depp
 

Pathetic seems to be a subjective term, doesn’t it.

[swansont]

56 minutes ago, koti said:

“And six years later, the jury gave me my life back. I am truly humbled… I hope that my quest to have the truth be told will have helped others, men or women, who have found themselves in my situation, and that those supporting them never give up.”

— Johnny Depp
 

Pathetic seems to be a subjective term, doesn’t it.

Yes, but as you seem to be expressing pity for him, you seem to agree that this is pathetic.

But the lawsuit was based on an Op-ed published in the Washington Post. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ive-seen-how-institutions-protect-men-accused-of-abuse-heres-what-we-can-do/2018/12/18/71fd876a-02ed-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html

 

a jury found Heard liable on three counts for the following statements, which Depp claimed were false and defamatory: (1) “I spoke up against sexual violence — and faced our culture’s wrath. That has to change.” (2) “Then two years ago, I became a public figure representing domestic abuse, and I felt the full force of our culture’s wrath for women who speak out.” (3) “I had the rare vantage point of seeing, in real time, how institutions protect men accused of abuse.” 

I'm supposing it's the calling out of "domestic abuse" that defamed Depp

I didn't follow the trial, so I'm not sure why she was held liable for three counts. I'm also confused as to what the connection is to her allegedly being an abuser and predator. 

 

[Peterkin]

4 hours ago, koti said:

I agree that this trial was grotesque but the fact that JD is a victim of abuse by a manipulative predator still stands.

Where does it stand?

[iNow]

If men are being abused and ignored, then yes. That should change. We should support people being abused, help them into healthier situations, and follow the evidence instead of our own biases whenever we can.

Traditional sex and gender roles are rapidly shifting and even crumbling. This issue of abuse is no different, nor should it be. We should attempt to protect people as a whole, not limit focus on specific sexual or gender identities as if they exist within a vacuum. 

And I can justifiably state all of this without accusing Koti of being some PC woke social justice warrior for even beginning the discussion here. Amazing!

[koti]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Yes, but as you seem to be expressing pity for him, you seem to agree that this is pathetic.

 

Youre gonna need to explain how you came into this conclusion as I trully have no idea what kind of a twisted thought process brought you to this. 

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

Where does it stand?

It stands right in the middle of what you should be doing - supporting a victim of abuse. Confirmed by court & jury and a verdict.

[zapatos]

32 minutes ago, koti said:

supporting a victim of abuse. Confirmed by court & jury and a verdict.

Not in this trial it wasn't. Can you please tell me where it was confirmed by court and jury that he is a victim of domestic violence? 

[Peterkin]

33 minutes ago, koti said:

Confirmed by court & jury and a verdict.

I thought he won a lawsuit for defamation. I'm not aware that she was convicted of abuse. It sounds to me as if the two of them fought and they each say the other started it, just as children very often do. I admit that this sordid pair hasn't interested me enough to find out the details, but I don't see evidence that the man was a victim of abuse. 

Domestic abuse is a serious issue, and abused men generally do not get justice - even in the rare case when they seek it. To cite this particular man as their representative is to do the real victims an injustice.

And, IMO, trivialize and sensationalize and misdirect any discussion of the subject.

There is a ton of real information available. We don't need to get our 'facts' from tabloid fare

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=male+victims+of+domestic+violence&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

eg

Quote

When men are victims of DV, they are physically as well as psychologically abused with the female (ex)-partners often being their perpetrator. The most important reason for men not to report the abuse is the belief the police would not take any action. Our findings suggest society should be aware that men are also victims of DV and feel the need to talk about it and desire support.https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10896-012-9482-9

 

[koti]

16 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Not in this trial it wasn't. Can you please tell me where it was confirmed by court and jury that he is a victim of domestic violence? 

Can’t seem to find a text version of the complex verdict which I watched live yesterday. The jury awarded JD a „yes” in at least 30 different points, each or most of those points are cases where Amber Heard abuses JD psychologically in a very malicious way. You either havent heard and understood the verdict or youre trying to bleach out what AH has been proven to do him. I assume its the former?

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, koti said:

You either havent heard and understood the verdict or youre trying to bleach out what AH has been proven to do him. I assume its the former?

Gee, that's nice of you. I said in my first post I didn't follow the trial but thought it was a libel case.

Then swansont provided the following:
 

a jury found Heard liable on three counts for the following statements, which Depp claimed were false and defamatory: (1) “I spoke up against sexual violence — and faced our culture’s wrath. That has to change.” (2) “Then two years ago, I became a public figure representing domestic abuse, and I felt the full force of our culture’s wrath for women who speak out.” (3) “I had the rare vantage point of seeing, in real time, how institutions protect men accused of abuse.” 

 

If you cannot be bothered to support your own claim in your own thread, then don't question my integrity when I question your claim.

[koti]

13 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Gee, that's nice of you. I said in my first post I didn't follow the trial but thought it was a libel case.

Then swansont provided the following:
 

a jury found Heard liable on three counts for the following statements, which Depp claimed were false and defamatory: (1) “I spoke up against sexual violence — and faced our culture’s wrath. That has to change.” (2) “Then two years ago, I became a public figure representing domestic abuse, and I felt the full force of our culture’s wrath for women who speak out.” (3) “I had the rare vantage point of seeing, in real time, how institutions protect men accused of abuse.” 

 

If you cannot be bothered to support your own claim in your own thread, then don't question my integrity when I question your claim.

I havent questioned your integrity, I clearly said that its probably the former (that you haven’t listened to the verdict) Or should I have questioned your integrity and youre convinced that the victim, Johny Depp should be blamed?

[Peterkin]

If the subject is domestic violence against men, I'm interested, because that's a real problem and real people are not only suffering but also passing on a pattern of toxic relationships to their children.

If the subject is the poor little movie star whose only recourse against his terrible wife is a team of 8 attorneys with all the resources of an international law firm, unlimited funds and an army of social media connected fans, I lost interest.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, koti said:

Youre gonna need to explain how you came into this conclusion as I trully have no idea what kind of a twisted thought process brought you to this. 

The definition of pathetic is "arousing pity." Pity is "the feeling of sorrow and compassion caused by the suffering and misfortunes of others:"

You feel sorry/compassion for JD (at least, that's how your posts come across) - that his name was besmirched and he was blacklisted, i.e. he had misfortune. Thus, you feel pity for him.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. The situation was pitiful.

 

[koti]

26 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

If the subject is domestic violence against men, I'm interested, because that's a real problem and real people are not only suffering but also passing on a pattern of toxic relationships to their children.

If the subject is the poor little movie star whose only recourse against his terrible wife is a team of 8 attorneys with all the resources of an international law firm, unlimited funds and an army of social media connected fans, I lost interest.

So if the victim is rich its all good, got it. Bravo Peterkin.

17 minutes ago, swansont said:

Seems pretty straightforward to me. The situation was pitiful.

 

What is pitiful is the way youre portraying this, I csn only pitty your lack of empathy towards a victim of abuse. 

[iNow]

2 hours ago, koti said:

I trully have no idea what kind of a twisted thought process brought you to this. 

1 hour ago, koti said:

or youre trying to bleach out what AH has been proven to do him.

53 minutes ago, koti said:

should I have questioned your integrity and youre convinced that the victim, Johny Depp should be blamed?

13 minutes ago, koti said:

So if the victim is rich its all good, got it. Bravo Peterkin.

What is pitiful is the way youre portraying this, I csn only pitty your lack of empathy towards a victim of abuse. 

You're always so steady and inviting of reasonable rational dialog without needless vitriol or attack. Thank you for so consistently leading by example and setting the proper tone that leaves personal barbs and aggro provocations at the door. It's truly a sight to behold!

[Peterkin]

14 minutes ago, koti said:

So if the victim is rich its all good, got it.

I don't see it proved anywhere that he was a victim at all. It's obvious that he was not helpless.

I find him entirely unconvincing as representative of any victims of domestic violence.

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I find him entirely unconvincing as representative of any victims of domestic violence.

Both of them, not just him.