How best to start including men who are victims of abuse by women into the public discourse (Johny Depp vs Amber Heard)

[Peterkin]

5 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Both of them, not just him.

Sure. But the thread is specifically about him as the victim.

Like I said, they probably had a sick relationship; they probably hit and threw things at each other (which, barring use of firearms, would give him a clear advantage); they probably abused other substances (at least he certainly looks like he's been doing so for a while); neither was helpless or without recourse.

In short: not a good example of the topic.

I offered some real case studies. I'm done with gossip.

[zapatos]

26 minutes ago, koti said:

What is pitiful is the way youre portraying this, I csn only pitty your lack of empathy towards a victim of abuse. 

Thus far the only victims of abuse here are those who are attempting to address your OP.

Perhaps YOU could make some recommendations on "How best to start including men who are victims of abuse by women into the public discourse".

If all you want to do is sing Johnny's praises,  I've included a link to the Johnny Depp Fan Club Facebook page for you.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/305998319459715/

[swansont]

 

1 hour ago, koti said:

I csn only pitty your lack of empathy towards a victim of abuse. 

I'm not sure what I have said that leads you to believe that I lack empathy towards any victim of abuse.

I will note that others have asked you for evidence of JD being such a victim, but I don't see where you've provided any.

[TheVat]

One need look no further than recent photos of Depp to understand why his career might be on its downslope.  He reminds of guys I've seen at riverboat casinos who aspire to be lounge lizards but their shallow charm is undermined by an overall sleaziness.  His future as a character actor is secure, leading man not so much.  I'm sure it felt good for him to lay the blame on a Washington Post column that didn't mention him.

Gosh, I am not being very nice.  This is why I avoid celebrity gossip stories.  NM.

 

[CharonY]

I think this thread illustrates why discussing population wide-problems using celebrities might not be ideal. The personality of either of these persons has no impact om the reality of the situation, which requires statistical data.

And the data suggests that the life-time risk of women to face abuse from intimate partners is just a bit higher than for men (~40% vs ~30%), though typically women are (for obvious reasons) at higher risk of severe injury and are much more common to be victims of sexual abuse. So clearly there is something that needs to be done for the victims. However, changing traditional views is contentious (we now get into the progressive part of things). 

Clearly, the data demonstrates that reality does not align with the thinking that because men are stronger, they cannot be abused. Likewise seeking help for men is heavily stigmatized. At the same time some folks like to deal with it like a zero-sum game. I.e. if we help one group it is assumed to be at the cost for another. As such, we need to re-think the issue in a more holistic way to provide enduring solutions. 

 

[MigL]

I don't have statistics to back it up ( as CharonY always seems to ), but I would think men largely perpetrate physical and sexual abuse on their female partners, while women largely perpetrate emotional abuse on their male partners.

Historically emtional abuse hasn't been treated as abuse, but the situation is changing rapidly, and I would think this is what Koti is referring to.

[geordief]

I would ,again with no statistics (would they even be possible) be surprised if emotional (is "emotional" the same as non-physical?) abuse (or manipulation ) could be anyways  neatly disentangle from  physical abuse.

Or even that they were  in some sense opposites.

 

It all sounds very ad hoc to me,but I agree with what has been said that this recent case shouldn't be taken as especially indicative  of the situation at large  even if both these characters are entitled to fair - but not exhorbitantly fair treatment  in the paths and circumstances that they have chosen or taken.

O

[Peterkin]

Statistics and studies are available. Here's a bunch of them from all over the world:

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=intimate+partner+emotional+abuse+statistics&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

and a clear, very accessible overview from Canada (2012)

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/health-promotion/stop-family-violence/prevention-resource-centre/family-violence/psychological-abuse-discussion-paper.html

Quote

- About 1 in 4 women and nearly 1 in 10 men have experienced contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner during their lifetime and reported some form of IPV-related impact.

 - Over 43 million women and 38 million men have experienced psychological aggression by an intimate partner in their lifetime.https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/fastfact.html

CDC 2021

Edited June 2, 2022 by Peterkin

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I don't have statistics to back it up ( as CharonY always seems to ), but I would think men largely perpetrate physical and sexual abuse on their female partners, while women largely perpetrate emotional abuse on their male partners.

Historically emtional abuse hasn't been treated as abuse, but the situation is changing rapidly, and I would think this is what Koti is referring to.

Not quite. As mentioned, for sexual abuse we find the largest gender differences. Looking at StatCan data it is at about 2% for men and 12% for women. Note that this also includes same-sex partners. When it comes to physical violence of any sorts, it is a bit closer, 23% of women vs 17% of men). So victims of physical abuse are not only women, but if we look at severe injuries the numbers skew towards women again. Emotional abuse was even more common but women again were more commonly victims (43%) compared to men (35%). So while there differences, they may be smaller than often expected. 

Edit: crossposted with Peterkin

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, geordief said:

I would ,again with no statistics (would they even be possible) be surprised if emotional (is "emotional" the same as non-physical?) abuse (or manipulation ) could be anyways  neatly disentangle from  physical abuse.

Perhaps not neatly, as they do very often occur together, but emotional abuse does also occur without physical violence.

Quote

In the past, researchers considered psychological abuse to be a consequence of other forms of abuse (Garbarino 1990, 7), particularly physical or sexual abuse (Arias and Pape 1999, 56; Astin 1993, 17; O'Leary 1999, 3). Now, however, psychological abuse is understood as a separate and distinct form of abuse. Researchers (Dutton, Goodman and Bennett 2001, 180) have confirmed that psychological abuse is a common and significant form of interpersonal violence in terms of its frequency, and its short and long-term effects (Tomison and Tucci 1997). Moreover, several researchers have argued that victims experience greater trauma from ongoing, severe psychological abuse than from experiencing infrequent physical assault (Davis and Frieze 2002; Duncan 1999, 45-55; Guthrie 2001; Hildyard and Wolfe 2002, 679; Martin and Mohr 2002, 472-495; Sackett and Saunders 1999, 105).

 

1 hour ago, geordief said:

Or even that they were  in some sense opposites.

 Physical abuse is often a form of lashing out or venting of frustration not caused by, and sometimes not even related to the victim; at other times, it's retaliation for perceived wrongs or insults; sometimes it's just a way to prove dominance. Psychological abuse is more often an attempt to control (own) the other person by depriving them of self-esteem and the will to resist. 

 

Anyway, the truth is out there and it's not about celebrity misfits, though they, too can be subsumed in the statistics.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Peterkin

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Perhaps not neatly, as they do very often occur together, but emotional abuse does also occur without physical violence.

Indeed, more than half of the women who were victims of psychological abuse also encountered physical abuse, in men the rate is just shy of 50%.

Another gender difference is the frequency. I do not quite remember the precise numbers, but I believe women are roughly twice as likely to be repeatedly abused (IIRC indicated as 10 or more incidences of abuse). Not sure whether that might mean that men are more likely to get away from abusive relationships, though.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Not sure whether that might mean that men are more likely to get away from abusive relationships, though.

I'm not sure how things stand now, either. In my outdated experience, women who suffered repeated abuse were more likely to be financially dependent, or simply too intimidated to leave. They might have nowhere to go, especially with children. And the husband (it was usually a husband, not a boyfriend, which meant that for a large percentage of women in that situation, religion made it more difficult) I think - at least I'm led to believe  - that social services have improved since the 1970's and 80's. The biggest obstacle, though, was fear, and I think it still is. Abusers are vengeful; that's part of what makes them abusers in the first place. It's still not uncommon for a man to track down and kill his escaped wife and children. A woman is less likely to kill the man who leaves her, and far less likely to hurt or kill the children. To the extent that holds, men are better able to walk away from a toxic relationship. Not that there can't be other complications, extortion, blackmail, spiteful communications, making trouble at work.... from both sides.

We have a lot of sick puppies in this litter!

[Peterkin]

That last line should have read : "from either side", since most abusive relationships are unequal:  most of the power is on the abuser's side - and that just becomes more lopsided over time. Whatever happened between the lovely people in the OP, there probably was some inequality of power there, too. Couples who are both domineering, emotionally insecure and volatile either kill each other quickly or blow up the relationship quickly.

[koti]

14 hours ago, zapatos said:

Thus far the only victims of abuse here are those who are attempting to address your OP.

I’m trying to bring light to an issue which is close to me due to my own experiences which is elaborate and hard to counter psychological abuse which was perpetrated by Amber Heard. You trying to paint me as abusive is not much different to what she has been doing, think about it. 

Fortunately, there seems to be a shift globaly in media and social media, heck even Netflix is moving away from its previous stance by issuing a statement which tell emplyees to f off if they cant cope with working on projects they disagree on. I feel all this is interconnected and it seems that the days of promoting hate for men, harmful racial/gender stances are all coming to a stand still and this trial is having a part in it. Doesn’t seeing justice being done make you happy zapatos? 

 

14 hours ago, swansont said:

 

I will note that others have asked you for evidence of JD being such a victim, but I don't see where you've provided any.

Amber Heard has admitted herself on tape in court that she has abused Johny Depp. 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by koti

[swansont]

3 hours ago, koti said:

Amber Heard has admitted herself on tape in court that she has abused Johny Depp. 

She admitted to hitting him.

"Heard has testified she struck Depp only in self-defense and to protect her sister, Whitney Henriquez."

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/pop-culture-news/key-allegations-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial-rcna30147

Both she and Depp have alleged the other one was the aggressor, but since the trial wan't about domestic abuse, this is literally a "he said, she said" situation. Either one, or both, could be fabricating events and/or circumstances. (If their testimonies are in conflict, at least one is doing so)

So once again, do you have evidence of your claims, and if you do, please post it rather than just repeating the allegation.

[StringJunky]

14 hours ago, CharonY said:

Not quite. As mentioned, for sexual abuse we find the largest gender differences. Looking at StatCan data it is at about 2% for men and 12% for women. Note that this also includes same-sex partners. When it comes to physical violence of any sorts, it is a bit closer, 23% of women vs 17% of men). So victims of physical abuse are not only women, but if we look at severe injuries the numbers skew towards women again. Emotional abuse was even more common but women again were more commonly victims (43%) compared to men (35%). So while there differences, they may be smaller than often expected. 

Edit: crossposted with Peterkin

Isn't this because males are statistically stronger and not because they are necessarily, inherently more violent in that scenario, and not that such women don't have the intent to do the same? I'm  not asserting that, just that it arises in my mind. My stepdad broke my mum's arm 30 years ago. She's 5'2", he was 6ft. He was likely restraining her because she had a habit of lunging in a rage and grabbing a person's hair... she was violent. I walked in one day visiting and she said "He broke my arm", which was in plaster. She left me to imagine the rest... and it wasn't in her favour. I just said "Did he?" and changed the subject.

Edited June 3, 2022 by StringJunky

[koti]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

 

So once again, do you have evidence of your claims, and if you do, please post it rather than just repeating the allegation.

Evidence for which claims? Not like it matters because your mind is immune to the fact that Johny Depp was abused by a woman but since you ask please be specific.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

sn't this because males are statistically stronger and not because they are necessarily, inherently more violent in that scenario, and not that such women don't have the intent to do the same?

The motivations are not in evidence and are not readily discernible from statistics. I know about some of the motivations, and their origins tend to lie in the cultural roles assigned to people, and how fragile their egos are as a result of childhood and societal influences long before marriage. In sports threads, we're constantly hearing that men are inherently more aggressive than women - why would it be any different in domestic situations? Can you think of reasons why women would want to abuse their mates?

In my limited - statistically negligible - experience, wife-beaters do not intend to abuse, and are [more or less] genuinely sorry after each episode. That's one reason the women stay: the men always promise it won't happen again; "I don't know what came over me." "I didn't mean it!" "It's just that you made me sooo angry..." The operative there is 'you made me'. It's the partner's fault. (In actual fact, the anger is may well come from failures and humiliations outside the home, and simply come to a focus on the most convenient target. Much like a child that's being punished kicking the dog on his way to the corner.) And abused women do often provoke incidents; they, too, have all this blocked rage building up over time. That's why the situation typically escalates from yelling to slapping to punching to broken bones and hospitalization - and sometimes death. Alcohol frequently plays a part, which also tends to escalate, from occasional overindulgence and uninhibited speaking out, to habitual weekend inebriation and more forceful acting out, to full-blown alcoholism and uncontrolled violence. This applies to both sexes. The frustrated wife may get a little tipsy at a party and make some jocular cutting remarks... and end up being drunk every night, throwing tableware at him.

Verbal abuse is far more varied, subtle and difficult to pin down. More kinds of motivation and more kinds of purpose. But that, too, usually escalates as the victim becomes less responsive, and the original cause (jealousy, insecurity, fear, ambition, frustration, need to control, need to assert ego) remains unsatisfied. It always remains unsatisfied, because no change takes place ion the abuser's psyche, where the original problem lies. 

Domestic violence statistics usually reflect social issues: the home is just the small stage on which every man and woman is the star of their own drama.

[zapatos]

7 hours ago, koti said:

You trying to paint me as abusive is not much different to what she has been doing, think about it. 

For Christ's sake koti, read what you posted! You have been abusive to just about everyone in this thread.

" a manipulative predator"

 "a twisted thought process"

"trying to bleach out"

"Or should I have questioned your integrity..."

"What is pitiful is the way youre portraying this, I csn only pitty your lack of empathy"

 

7 hours ago, koti said:

You trying to paint me as abusive is not much different to what she has been doing,

So what has happened in this thread by me is the extent of what Amber Heard did to Johnny Depp? Perhaps you should sue me for $50,000,000.

You seem to have lost all ability to make rational, evidence-based arguments.

[Phi for All]

7 hours ago, koti said:

I’m trying to bring light to an issue which is close to me due to my own experiences which is elaborate and hard to counter psychological abuse which was perpetrated by Amber Heard. You trying to paint me as abusive is not much different to what she has been doing, think about it.

No paint was needed. You were browbeating responders who were asking you to support your statements. They weren't outrageous statements, and I thought you should have done more to address those posts rather than complain about them. It's a science discussion site discussing a court trial, so words are extremely important, and the evidence doubly so. It shouldn't be a surprise that you get pushback from jumbled references to "abuse" and "hitting" and "physical" and "psychological". 

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Isn't this because males are statistically stronger and not because they are necessarily, inherently more violent in that scenario, and not that such women don't have the intent to do the same? I'm  not asserting that, just that it arises in my mind. My stepdad broke my mum's arm 30 years ago. She's 5'2", he was 6ft. He was likely restraining her because she had a habit of lunging in a rage and grabbing a person's hair... she was violent. I walked in one day visiting and she said "He broke my arm", which was in plaster. She left me to imagine the rest... and it wasn't in her favour. I just said "Did he?" and changed the subject.

That is a big part of it, certainly (though again, the overall rate of physical abuse is a bit higher for women as victims). Also there seems to be a difference in how violence is expressed. Women are way more likely to be shaken, pushed or thrown, as well as beaten, which requires strength and has high injury potential. They are also more likely to be choked. 

Getting hit or bitten is much closer (still statistically significantly higher for women).  The main category where there are no significant differences between gender of the victim is slapping (lower overall injury potential but still strength dependent). 

The inherent violent aspect is almost its own discussion. One could ask whether men are learned to become more violent and/or how much biology is behind it that might facilitate violent behaviour. While seemingly trivial, getting enough information to separate these aspects (as almost all nature vs nurture debates) is often very difficult (especially if one wants to avoid speculation and/or extrapolations).

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, koti said:

Evidence for which claims? Not like it matters because your mind is immune to the fact that Johny Depp was abused by a woman but since you ask please be specific.

The one about AH abusing JD. I think evidence was asked for to determine what kind of abuse you were talking about, but instead you went with the Argument from Incredulity again, in essence arguing that you can't believe we've made up our minds to ignore the abuse she put him through. You're Begging the Question also, so you're raising all sorts of red flag pushback. Oddly, I think there are plenty of members who would love to acknowledge that you have a point, and that abuse of men is a problem that needs to be addressed, but they want to make sure the reasoning is sound, and that any conclusions were arrived at with little to no jumping.

[swansont]

2 hours ago, koti said:

Evidence for which claims? Not like it matters because your mind is immune to the fact that Johny Depp was abused by a woman but since you ask please be specific.

It's not a fact just because you say it is. That's not what a fact is, that's an assertion. Maybe it has merit, maybe not. One should investigate

You were asked to provide evidence to back up your assertion. You have not done so. All you've done is repeat the assertion, which does not make it a fact.

[koti]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

For Christ's sake koti, read what you posted! You have been abusive to just about everyone in this thread.

" a manipulative predator"

 "a twisted thought process"

"trying to bleach out"

"Or should I have questioned your integrity..."

"What is pitiful is the way youre portraying this, I csn only pitty your lack of empathy"

 

So what has happened in this thread by me is the extent of what Amber Heard did to Johnny Depp? Perhaps you should sue me for $50,000,000.

You seem to have lost all ability to make rational, evidence-based arguments.

They were all rebuttals.
 

40 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

The one about AH abusing JD. I think evidence was asked for to determine what kind of abuse you were talking about, but instead you went with the Argument from Incredulity again, in essence arguing that you can't believe we've made up our minds to ignore the abuse she put him through. You're Begging the Question also, so you're raising all sorts of red flag pushback. Oddly, I think there are plenty of members who would love to acknowledge that you have a point, and that abuse of men is a problem that needs to be addressed, but they want to make sure the reasoning is sound, and that any conclusions were arrived at with little to no jumping.

He was awarded 15 mln dollars by the jury in a defamation suit, abuse doesn't have to be physical and in Johny Depps case it certainly was psychological as the pushing/hitting is nothing compared to destrying someones reputation/work/life like AH did to JD.

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

It's not a fact just because you say it is. That's not what a fact is, that's an assertion. Maybe it has merit, maybe not. One should investigate

You were asked to provide evidence to back up your assertion. You have not done so. All you've done is repeat the assertion, which does not make it a fact.

Which assertion ?

Edited June 3, 2022 by koti

[swansont]

1 minute ago, koti said:

Which assertion ?

That Depp was the subject of abuse. 

I can't believe how obtuse you are being. I have no skin in this particular game (establishing that Depp was a victim of abuse, and no, being defamed is not automatically the same thing), so I will bow out. If Depp wants to pursue charges for being abused he is free to do so; unlike many victims he's not trapped by lacking resources to break free of his alleged abuser.