Aternate life chemistry

[deappri]

In recent years the discovery of the Bucky ball, C60 molecule, was touted as proof of the versatile nature of the Carbon bond and an example of why it was so good at being the scaffolding of life. But another element can make Bucky ball type molecules, Boron. The B80 molecule is stable and shows that Boron is also a very versatile atom, does this point to the possibility that Boron might in some environments make a suitable scaffolding for life as well?

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Edited June 8, 2022 by Phi for All
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[exchemist]

7 hours ago, deappri said:

In recent years the discovery of the Bucky ball, C60 molecule, was touted as proof of the versatile nature of the Carbon bond and an example of why it was so good at being the scaffolding of life. But another element can make Bucky ball type molecules, Boron. The B80 molecule is stable and shows that Boron is also a very versatile atom, does this point to the possibility that Boron might in some environments make a suitable scaffolding for life as well?

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No.

What’s the link? It looks spammy. Set my mind at rest on that and maybe we can discuss why boron is not a great candidate for biochemistry.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Phi for All
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[Moontanman]

13 hours ago, deappri said:

In recent years the discovery of the Bucky ball, C60 molecule, was touted as proof of the versatile nature of the Carbon bond and an example of why it was so good at being the scaffolding of life. But another element can make Bucky ball type molecules, Boron. The B80 molecule is stable and shows that Boron is also a very versatile atom, does this point to the possibility that Boron might in some environments make a suitable scaffolding for life as well?

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It does seem to point out the versatility of Boron and in fact Boron does rival carbon in its versatility but Boron has some extreme drawbacks. The rarity of Boron is probably the most significant, free Boron is explosive in an oxygen atmosphere and Boron "oxide?" is a solid at the temps water is liquid but it does dissolve in water (makes your laundry squeaky clean as well) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry

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Boranes are dangerously explosive in Earth's atmosphere, but would be more stable in a reducing atmosphere. However, boron's low cosmic abundance makes it less likely as a base for life than carbon.

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Non-carbon-based biochemistries[edit]

On Earth, all known living things have a carbon-based structure and system. Scientists have speculated about the pros and cons of using atoms other than carbon to form the molecular structures necessary for life, but no one has proposed a theory employing such atoms to form all the necessary structures. However, as Carl Sagan argued, it is very difficult to be certain whether a statement that applies to all life on Earth will turn out to apply to all life throughout the universe.[12] Sagan used the term "carbon chauvinism" for such an assumption.[13] He regarded silicon and germanium as conceivable alternatives to carbon[13] (other plausible elements include but are not limited to palladium and titanium); but, on the other hand, he noted that carbon does seem more chemically versatile and is more abundant in the cosmos).[14] Norman Horowitz devised the experiments to determine whether life might exist on Mars that were carried out by the Viking Lander of 1976, the first U.S. mission to successfully land an unmanned probe on the surface of Mars. Horowitz argued that the great versatility of the carbon atom makes it the element most likely to provide solutions, even exotic solutions, to the problems of survival on other planets.[15] He considered that there was only a remote possibility that non-carbon life forms could exist with genetic information systems capable of self-replication and the ability to evolve and adapt.

This may be interesting;

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265737139_Alternative_Chemistries_of_Life

https://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/A/alternative_forms_of_life.html

https://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/B/boron-based_life.html

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Boron is one of the few elements that seems to offer a plausible alternative to carbon as a basis for life elsewhere in the universe. Like carbon and silicon, boron has a strong tendency to form covalent molecular compounds. Being a group III element, however, it has one less valence electron than the number of valence orbitals, which makes its chemistry noticeably different from that of carbon.

 

There are no direct analogs to hydrocarbons in boron chemistry because, although boron forms a lot of different structural varieties of hydride, in these the boron atoms are linked indirectly through hydrogen bridges. Boron forms bonds with nitrogen that are somewhat like the carbon-carbon bond – two electrons from the nitrogen being donated in addition to the covalent electron sharing. Boron-nitrogen compounds largely match the chemical and physical properties of alkanes (such as methane and ethane) and aromatic hydrocarbons (such as benzene) but with higher melting and boiling points. Borazole especially is both chemically and physically similar to benzene. However, the fact that borazole and its derivatives are more reactive than their benzene counterparts would make any boron-based biochemistry more feasible within the lower temperatures at which ammonia is a liquid solvent since the reactions would then be more controllable. Interestingly, boron has an affinity ammonia as a solvent, which would suit a low-temperature biological scheme.

 

One of the biggest drawbacks to boron as a basis for life it is scarcity. On Earth, its abundance in the continental crust is only about 10 parts per million, so that any biology would seem to depend on their being present some mechanism for bringing about greater local concentrations of the element.

 

[exchemist]

On 6/8/2022 at 8:55 PM, Moontanman said:

It does seem to point out the versatility of Boron and in fact Boron does rival carbon in its versatility but Boron has some extreme drawbacks. The rarity of Boron is probably the most significant, free Boron is explosive in an oxygen atmosphere and Boron "oxide?" is a solid at the temps water is liquid but it does dissolve in water (makes your laundry squeaky clean as well) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry

This may be interesting;

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265737139_Alternative_Chemistries_of_Life

https://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/A/alternative_forms_of_life.html

https://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/B/boron-based_life.html

 

The problem, though, is it has only 3 valence electrons but needs to share 8 ( i.e. form 4 bonds) to form a closed n=2 shell through covalent bonding. Hence it has a tendency for multicentre bonding, which tends not to lead to chains, i.e. catenation  does not seem to be  a feature of boron chemistry.

[Moontanman]

20 hours ago, exchemist said:

The problem, though, is it has only 3 valence electrons but needs to share 8 ( i.e. form 4 bonds) to form a closed n=2 shell through covalent bonding. Hence it has a tendency for multicentre bonding, which tends not to lead to chains, i.e. catenation  does not seem to be  a feature of boron chemistry.

This is true but it would seem to point to a 4 bond chauvinism, life "not as we know it" could and probably would be so totally different that our current paradigms would be broken. But the rarity remains and the lack of boron compounds of oxygen that are gaseous remind me of the problems silicon has in the same vein. Of course other possible breathing gases remain but are so unusual that even speculating on them is difficult, hydrogen being the one speculated on the most. 

[studiot]

With carbon frameworks, we have only just begun to scratch the surface of possibilities of chemical combination for making large molecules.

There is nothing wrong with boron, except we are less familiar with it.

https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i30/Boron-chemistry-branches.html

 

Which brings in a secon possibility.

 

Mostly we have concentrated on carbon frameworks, but more recently (last 50 years or so ) we have begun understanding and using mixed element frameworks.

There is nothing sacred about having all the elements in a framework the same.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ijch.201800085

 

[exchemist]

2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

This is true but it would seem to point to a 4 bond chauvinism, life "not as we know it" could and probably would be so totally different that our current paradigms would be broken. But the rarity remains and the lack of boron compounds of oxygen that are gaseous remind me of the problems silicon has in the same vein. Of course other possible breathing gases remain but are so unusual that even speculating on them is difficult, hydrogen being the one speculated on the most. 

No, it’s catenation chauvinism, if it’s anything. If you can’t make long chain molecules, you have to be looking at such a radically different biochemistry that really you would be just guessing as to whether it might work or not.