Are there any treatments for severe depression which do not involve medication?

[raphaelh42]

1 hour ago, raphaelh42 said:

Maybe if i did not broke my tv i would have been killed by a bus.........

I wanted to edit remove this part but too late aparently

[Doctor Derp]

Psilocybin microdosing has shown promise for treating mental disorders.

Water fasting also promotes positive health benefits in my experience.

[TheVat]

9 minutes ago, Doctor Derp said:

Psilocybin microdosing has shown promise for treating mental disorders.

Water fasting also promotes positive health benefits in my experience.

Could you provide some sort of citation, hopefully from peer reviewed research, for your assertions?  While I can well imagine the therapeutic potential of psychoactive drugs like psilocybin, I think the water fasting claim is more "out there" and needs some factual backup.  Also note the thread topic is treatments which do not involve medication -- dosing with a psychoactive compound would fall under the rubric of medication, seems to me.

[Doctor Derp]

 

21 minutes ago, TheVat said:

 I think the water fasting claim is more "out there" and needs some factual backup.  

 

It has plenty of backup.

If you claim it doesn't, the burden of proof is on you.

As well as the loss of credibility that comes with supporting the wrong stance on the topic.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Doctor Derp

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, Doctor Derp said:

It has plenty of backup.

 

Then the polite thing to do would be to provide it when asked.

3 minutes ago, Doctor Derp said:

If you claim it doesn't, the burden of proof is on you.

 

But since he didn't make that claim, you are the only one here that is still expected to provide some evidence.

Please Note: As this is a science site, the culture is such that when asked to provide evidence, a citation, etc. for a claim, you are expected to do so. It allows others to verify claims and learn new things. Asking for evidence is not an aggressive move, it is standard practice and accepted by all.

[Doctor Derp]

7 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Then the polite thing to do would be to provide it when asked.

But since he didn't make that claim, you are the only one here that is still expected to provide some evidence.

Please Note: As this is a science site, the culture is such that when asked to provide evidence, a citation, etc. for a claim, you are expected to do so. It allows others to verify claims and learn new things. Asking for evidence is not an aggressive move, it is standard practice and accepted by all.

 

Obviously.

You're both upset due to remarks I made in the religion section.

You're following me. Being passive aggressive troublemakers.

Your behavior is childish and pathetic. 

You both should both be ashamed of yourselves.

[iNow]

You’re obviously trolling, but you’re also half right.

Psilocybin HAS shown tremendous progress and promise under guided conditions in helping treat depression, but you said “mental illness” which is rather clearly different and thus needlessly sloppy on your part. 

Maybe don’t throw so many stones in glass houses berating others when your own claim was plainly inaccurate and remedially false. 

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/psilocybin-treatment-for-major-depression-effective-for-up-to-a-year-for-most-patients-study-shows

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Doctor Derp said:

 

Obviously.

You're both upset due to remarks I made in the religion section.

You're following me. Being passive aggressive troublemakers.

Your behavior is childish and pathetic. 

You both should both be ashamed of yourselves.

!

Moderator Note

It’s a mistake to try and assign motives for peoples’ inquiries. 

We expect claims to be backed up, and asking for such information is fair game. Deflecting with a “prove it wrong” stance is shifting the burden of proof, and is unacceptable 

 

[iNow]

On another note, folic acid seems to reduce the risk of suicide. 
 

https://neurosciencenews.com/folic-acid-suicide-21568/

[TheVat]

3 hours ago, Doctor Derp said:

 

 

It has plenty of backup.

If you claim it doesn't, the burden of proof is on you.

As well as the loss of credibility that comes with supporting the wrong stance on the topic.

I didn't take a stance.  Out of genuine interest, and my usual appetite for scientific evidence, I requested (per this website's SOP) some citation to support your personal anecdotal experience.  The topic of the thread is depression, so are you saying that fasting can help depression?  

Once again, I ask a straightforward question.  

As for your insults and "you're following me" comment, it sounds like the fasting didn't do much for your paranoid ideation.   I'm not following you, I am continuing to follow this thread, which I posted in a few months ago.  (Aggressive Aggressive Addendum: fuckhead)

[lessthannovice]

Hello, all. I stumbled across this forum while using a search engine, and I thought I might leave a comment here because this is a topic I have some experience with. I notice that the OP hasn't been back, so really this is probably mostly for anyone else who wanders in here (like I did) looking for some information.

Both my research and my personal experience lead me to believe that nutritional factors can impact mental health. Here are a few:

iron

B vitamins

"methyl donors", i.e. lecithin (for choline); also betaine (aka trimethylglycine)

zinc

vitamin C

docosahexaenoic acid (dha) and eicosapentaenoic acid (epa), which are long-

chain omega-3 fatty acids

possibly inositol

These are the ones that work for me. For someone else they may not help or may even be harmful, so my best advice is to do your own research and do what works for you. Some people need to stay away from iron, for example, if they have a genetic anomaly that leads you to absorb more iron than the rest of us (the body doesn't have a good mechanism for dumping excess iron, so it's all about controls on absorption, and if you absorb more because of your genetics, you could have iron building up in your organs and causing all kinds of problems down the road). Tests for iron blood levels aren't too expensive, even without a doctor's order, so I'd suggest testing that before supplementing with iron or maybe even with vitamin C, which helps us absorb our iron.

 

All of these are pretty easy to find as supplements. They can all be over-supplemented, though, so moderation is key. I prefer the lower doses, myself. For example, I buy B100 b-complex capsules but I take only a portion of the contents each day so that one capsule lasts me a week or more. Then I add in a tiny dose of extra B6 in the form of pyridoxal 5'-phosphate, because both research and experience tell me that is one I need more of. Vitamin C I'm more generous with, although I still don't take the entire large capsule at one time.

 

I've found that one or two of these alone don't necessarily have much benefit-- they all need to work together, sort of like you can't build a house with only nails or only lumber.

 

Why B vitamins and Omega-3 work together - Food for the Brain

 

One tip I can offer to anyone looking to improve their nutrition for any reason is to make use of a nutrient tracking tool. There are two I know of that are free to use online.

 myfooddata.com has a recipe nutrition calculator. Every once in a while I'll take the time to type in an approximation of my day's food intake as if it were one 'recipe', and take a quick look at how the totals for my vitamins, minerals, and amino acids add up.

 

Another similar site is called Cronometer.

 

If you have time, I'd suggest playing with these tools some, to familiarize yourself with what they can and can't do--then using them to track your daily nutrition will be easier. There are options to change the size of the portions and the number of portions (you can even choose, say, 0.7 as the number of portions). Generic foods have more data available than branded foods.

 

I used to think I ate a pretty good (healthy) diet. But it turns out that I almost never meet the RDA for every single thing, and often come up really short on some things. Plus I've discovered that there are some things that I just plain need a little more of than most people.

 

I hope this information helps someone, sometime.

 

This post has gone on for long enough. Maybe I'll put some sites with some 'evidence' in another post.

This is some more information on the supplements I've used:

 

iron

Iron, neuro-bioavailability and depression - PubMed (nih.gov)

Investigating the relationship between iron and depression - PubMed (nih.gov)

Frontiers | A delicate balance: Iron metabolism and diseases of the brain (frontiersin.org)

It's also possible to have too much iron, and once iron has built up in the body, the symptoms can be almost the same as symptoms of iron deficiency. A test for iron is pretty cheap, whether you have health insurance or get it yourself without a doctor's order from a company like labcorp or quest.

 

B vitamins

Longitudinal association of vitamin B-6, folate, and vitamin B-12 with depressive symptoms among older adults over time - ScienceDirect

 

Associations of depression and intake of antioxidants and vitamin B complex: Results of the Brazilian Longitudinal Study of Adult Health (ELSA-Brasil) - PubMed (nih.gov)

Most b-complex supplements have way over the RDA. I take only a portion of a capsule each day.

 

"methyl donors", i.e. lecithin (for choline; and also betaine (aka trimethylglycine or TMG)

Dietary methyl donor micronutrients intake in relation to psychological disorders in adults - PubMed (nih.gov)

It's important not to over-supplement with choline. As for the betaine, bodybuilders use TMG for stamina, but too much can actually slow you down since too much glycine can have that effect. One of those instances where too little is bad but so is too much.

 

Role of betaine in improving the antidepressant effect of S-adenosyl-methionine in patients with mild-to-moderate depression - PubMed (nih.gov)

Note: I've used sam-e, sam-e with betaine, and betaine alone. The sam-e gave me anxiety, plus other symptoms that I interpreted as blood clots. The betaine alone works just as well for me without those side effects.

 

Preliminary results of a randomized controlled trial carried out with a fixed combination of S-adenosyl-L-methionine and betaine versus amitriptyline in patients with mild depression - PubMed (nih.gov)

 

zinc

Zinc in depression: a meta-analysis - PubMed (nih.gov)

Note: the upper limit suggested for zinc daily is 40mg. The RDA is about 11mg. I've seen supplements with 25mg and 40mg. My personal suggestion is to split the tablets and take only a portion of a tablet each day, if you suspect your diet may be low in zinc. 

 

vitamin C

The role of vitamin C in stress-related disorders - PubMed (nih.gov)

 

docosahexaenoic acid (dha) and eicosapentaenoic acid (epa) (omega-3 fatty acids)

Nutritional supplements in depressive disorders - PubMed (nih.gov)

Canned sardines have more omega-3's and are reported to be less contaminated with dangerous metals compared to other fishes. And although they're more expensive, I use a couple of algae oils, because I just can't see harvesting fish just for their oil.  Also, I enjoy some seaweeds like cut wakame (which has some EPA). 

 

possibly inositol

A meta-analysis of inositol for depression and anxiety disorders - PubMed (nih.gov)

This can lower blood sugar, and I don't have a lot of experience with it, so I hesitate to recommend it, except in small, occasional doses.

[lessthannovice]

I forgot to mention magnesium and vitamin D.

[lessthannovice]

a link to an abstract about neurotransmitter synthesis being dependent on b vitamins:

Homocysteine excess: delineating the possible mechanism of neurotoxicity and depression - Bhatia - 2015 - Fundamental & Clinical Pharmacology - Wiley Online Library

[lessthannovice]

These are some more finds on pubmed about looking to nutrition for prevention or treatment of mental health conditions:

Nutrition and behavioral health disorders: depression and anxiety - PMC (nih.gov)

Vitamin D supplementation ameliorates severity of generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) - PubMed (nih.gov)

The Effects of Magnesium Supplementation on Subjective Anxiety and Stress-A Systematic Review - PubMed (nih.gov)

[DanGonzal]

I believe " Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain " by psychiatrist John J. Ratey, M.D addresses treating depression to a great extent without medication.

For those who are not inclined to exercising: " No Sweat: How the Simple Science of Motivation Can Bring You a Lifetime of Fitness " by Michelle Segar PhD. can kick up your arse for the good.