Canada and conspiracies

[CharonY]

Just to take a break from US crazyness and considering that quite a few folks here actually are Canadians (or live in Canada) I thought it is worthwhile to look at Canadian crazyness. 

While overall higher competency and not having a professional grifter as the leader, Canada fared better through the pandemic (a bit higher than world average in terms of death rates, for example), we have encountered  a fair bit of conspiracy theories among the population when it came to COVID-19, which we had (perhaps unfairly) associated mostly with the US. The question whether vaccines contained tracking chip from Bill Gates was a question that came up too frequently for comfort, for example. 

A recent poll on Canadian beliefs on conspiracy theories is a bit worrying:

https://abacusdata.ca/conspiracy-theories-canada/

There, pollster found that over 40% of the responders believe that big events are controlled by small secret groups that work against folks and that much of our lives is controlled by secret plots.

Moreover 37% appear to believe in the replacement theory where native born Canadians (I kind of assume that it ironically does not include First Nations) are going to be replaced with immigrants.

13% think that Gates is using microchips for tracking with an additional 21% think that it is at least possible.

These beliefs are most common among PPC voters  (the far right party in Canada) with close to 70% agreeing to some of the conspiracy theories, followed by CPC voters (conservative party, ~50%) and with most other parties around 30-40% agreeing.

These contrarian beliefs are also associated with vaccination hesitancy (which has been explored in a number of studies, though perhaps often with more focus on the US).

While these beliefs are still considered fringe I do see a real risk of a general shift as we are seeing in the USA, if they become weaponized e.g. by media or other (semi-)traditional outlets.

So what are you thoughts? Do you think that there better in measures in Canada to keep it in check? Or is it simply a worldwide, likely social media driven trend? And if so, is there a way to combat it, or is that going to be the new normal?

[Peterkin]

49 minutes ago, CharonY said:

So what are you thoughts? Do you think that there better in measures in Canada to keep it in check? Or is it simply a worldwide, likely social media driven trend? And if so, is there a way to combat it, or is that going to be the new normal?

I don't know that any any Canadian agency has the power to keep the crazyness (I think I'll adopt your term) in check. I'm not sure anyone does.

Thing is, whatever the US has, we get next. Because of the proximity, language and heritage, trade and political alliance, cultural and personal ties. Also, parts of Canada have always been convenient for certain US factions - loyalist, escaped slaves and draft-dodgers, as well as smugglers and agitators. The KKK made its first incursions into Saskatchewan in 1917 and throve on British paranoia throughout the '20's. https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-kkk-has-a-history-in-canada-and-it-can-return/

And it reaches into the present just the same way. The Freedom Convoy nonsense was not exactly home-grown.

Quote

In reality, what the world is seeing is really two protests: The first, a true grassroots protest organized by a small group of anti-vax Canadian truckers. The other, bigger and more global, is pushed by social media agitators and the usual suspects of America’s far-right outrage machine.https://www.forbes.com/sites/helenleebouygues/2022/02/17/whos-really-driving-the-freedom-convoys/?sh=2c3cc0537574

The anti-vax nonsense is more complicated: it has roots in England and in the bible. The religious influence was probably more powerful in the late 19th and early  20th centuries, but now, there are more factors in play. The population of prosperous western countries has lulled itself into a false sense of blanket immunity due the success of mid-20th century vaccination efforts orchestrated by smart governments. There is a widespread distrust of pharmaceutical companies (and they are in large part responsible for their own bad rep!). Fundamentalist religiosity has been enjoying an electronically-assisted revival (strong US presence on that front) and all the right-wing broadcast media's and internet cabals' crazyness is readily accessible. The whole ball of crazy-wax is constantly heated by public and private angst: people find solace in the mob, in the identification of a bogeyman, in the catharsis of chanting and screaming.

It's not driven by social media, but it's facilitated and enabled and exacerbated by social media.  

Is there any way to combat it? I have no idea. If peace, security and prosperity were to return, it would die out by itself. Everyone is saner is saner when they tomorrow to be better than today.  But there are too many forces in too many places tearing down security, tearing down communities, tearing down optimism. 

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

There, pollster found that over 40% of the responders believe that big events are controlled by small secret groups that work against folks and that much of our lives is controlled by secret plots.

The thing about that is, they're right. Small groups of extremely powerful people are, in fact, controlling our economies, electoral processes and news sources. The uneducated fail to identify the conspirators accurately. It's like they know there is a burglar in the bedroom, but it's dark and they can't see him, so they aim their shotgun at every shadow and destroy their own furniture.

[Sensei]

On 6/12/2022 at 10:30 PM, CharonY said:

13% think that Gates is using microchips for tracking (...)

...but the conspiracy is that Gates wants it, not the technical details of how to implement it..

On 6/12/2022 at 10:30 PM, CharonY said:

with an additional 21% think that it is at least possible.

..but it is already: everybody have their cellphone or smartphone with them everywhere..

..no need to inject it in vaccines..

 

Apple AirTag is also available:

https://www.google.com/search?q=airtag

The size is such that it is handy for a man, not limits of this technology.

Do you know how it works?

It uses other iPhone devices around the world as a network to track location..

 

If you walk down the street with your debit/credit card, you can be identified through NFC/RFID technology..

 

[CharonY]

17 minutes ago, Sensei said:

..but it is already: everybody have their cellphone or smartphone with them everywhere..

..no need to inject it in vaccines..

The question wasn't whether tracking is feasible though (especially as folks are getting tracked voluntarily, though) but rather whether Bill Gates is using microchips to track and change human behaviour. The background there is that the Gates foundation has supported vaccination efforts (but is not building cell phones or other tracking devices, afaik).

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

The background there is that the Gates foundation has supported vaccination efforts

And that's all the association it takes for him to make a plausible bogey-man: mega-rich, powerful, mostly invisible, able to control a large chunk of our work and commercial life. The kind of people who subscribe to anti-science conspiracy theories are not too particular about the technical details. They're content with a big, readily identifiable target for their angst.

[MigL]

Difference is, even our nutters are polite and well behaved.
The Freedom Convoy was basically an excuse to have a party in Ottawa after a year and a half of lock-downs.
Until the Government went Gestapo on them.

In the US, the nutters would have been armed, and not so well behaved.

[zapatos]

38 minutes ago, MigL said:

Difference is, even our nutters are polite and well behaved.

That may be true but that is not necessarily how we saw it portrayed in the US.

Quote

Police have started investigations after several incidents, including the appearance of swastika flags and footage of a woman dancing on the tomb of the unknown soldier.

Ottawa's Mayor Jim Watson said some protesters had harassed staff at a soup kitchen, demanding free meals after they were turned away by restaurants for their refusal to comply with indoor mask mandates.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60190452

Quote

Within hours of truckers jamming the streets of Canada’s capital, what rose quickly to the surface like a toxic buoy were images and news stories of protesters waving swastikas, urinating on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier...

What the “freedom convoy” has succeeded in doing is tear off the protective tissue on “being a Canadian” to expose an ugly truth — that perhaps racism, violent radicalization and disrespect simmers within much of the Canadian psyche, more than we were willing to admit.

https://theconversation.com/how-canadas-freedom-convoy-was-overtaken-by-a-radical-fringe-176111

Quote

The Canadian prime minister, who tested positive for Covid-19, railed against protesters for violence, racism and spreading misinformation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/31/world/canada/trudeau-truckers-anti-vax-protests.html

I also just recently heard a story on NPR talking about Canada's gun problem. I didn't know they had one but was not surprised that a large part of it had to do with the smuggling of handguns from the US. Here is a related article.

Quote

A Statistics Canada report released last week says that, since 2009, the per capita rate of firearms being pointed at someone in the commission of a crime has nearly tripled, and the rate at which guns are fired with intent to kill or wound is up fivefold.

In rural areas, there were notable spikes in firearms-related crimes in 2019 and 2020, mostly involving long guns. But it’s in cities and suburbs where crime is most likely to involve a firearm – usually an easy-to-conceal handgun. Statscan says 63 per cent of firearm-related violent crimes in urban areas involved handguns in 2020.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-canada-has-a-real-gun-violence-problem-but-its-mostly-not-the-one-the/

Edited June 15, 2022 by zapatos

[Peterkin]

18 minutes ago, zapatos said:

That may be true but that is not necessarily how we saw it portrayed in the US.

It's not how many of us saw it, either. For three weeks, they terrorized downtown Ottawa and kept people who live and work there from going about their normal lives, shopping, working, sleeping... That is far from polite. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/timeline-of-convoy-protest-in-ottawa-1.6351432

25 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I also just recently heard a story on NPR talking about Canada's gun problem. I didn't know they had one but was not surprised that a large part of it had to do with the smuggling of handguns from the US. Here is a related article.

That's what I've been talking about. It's not Canada's gun problem: it's the gun, drug, hate and general crazyness problem we share.

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 hours ago, zapatos said:

That may be true but that is not necessarily how we saw it portrayed in the US.

And here we thought you guys were too busy burning your cities and planning insurrections to notice...😄

[CharonY]

It appears that I have not linked to all of the data, which could clear up a few things. The survey also asked explicitly whether vaccines include secret chips to monitor and control behaviour (11% true, 14% not sure/possibly). Which is just a bit lower than the question involving Gates. 19% believe that COVID vaccines have killed many people but it is covered up, with further 25% thinking that it is at least possible. Much of it seems related to public distrust in the government and media, the same trend that is also happening in the US.

 

https://abacusdata.ca/trust-and-disinformation-in-canada/

https://abacusdata.ca/conspiracy-theories-canada-3/

[MigL]

22 hours ago, Peterkin said:

It's not how many of us saw it, either.

Yeah, your biases are showing.

22 hours ago, Peterkin said:

For three weeks, they terrorized downtown Ottawa and kept people who live and work there from going about their normal lives, shopping, working, sleeping...

Sure, but when natives block main roads in Caledonia, muliple times over the last 15-20 years and keep the people who live there from going about their normal lives, shopping, working, sleeping, that is OK ?
And yes, sometimes those natives are armed; truckers were not

Grand River land dispute - Wikipedia

A truly progressive society gives even the people they don't agree with,the right tospeak their opinion, and protest.
Not just the ones they agree with.

[Peterkin]

14 minutes ago, MigL said:

Sure, but when natives block main roads in Caledonia, muliple times over the last 15-20 years and keep the people who live there from going about their normal lives, shopping, working, sleeping, that is OK ?

I'm not sure how those two events are connected. I don't think I said that truckers were the only impolite people in Canada. 

17 minutes ago, MigL said:

A truly progressive society gives even the people they don't agree with,the right tospeak their opinion, and protest.
Not just the ones they agree with.

Yes, that is much to be desired.

None of which precludes the anti-vax and other frinjy-idjits being dead wrong.

[MigL]

On 6/15/2022 at 10:11 PM, Peterkin said:

None of which precludes the anti-vax and other frinjy-idjits being dead wrong.

None of which precludes their right to protest, just as other groups have done, and continue to do.
What's good for the goose ...

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

None of which precludes their right to protest, just as other groups have done, and continue to do.
What's good for the goose ...

Maybe so. Shall we compare causes, histories, justifications and methods?

[MigL]

9 hours ago, Peterkin said:

11 hours ago, MigL said:

None of which precludes their right to protest, just as other groups have done, and continue to do.
What's good for the goose ...

Maybe so. Shall we compare causes, histories, justifications and methods?

So, because their cause is not important enough to you, maybe they shouldn't be allowed ?

On 6/15/2022 at 10:11 PM, Peterkin said:

On 6/15/2022 at 9:53 PM, MigL said:

A truly progressive society gives even the people they don't agree with,the right tospeak their opinion, and protest.
Not just the ones they agree with.

Yes, that is much to be desired.

... and you didn't actually mean this ?

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

So, because their cause is not important enough to you, maybe they shouldn't be allowed ?

I drew no conclusion as to what protests should be allowed or disallowed. 

I simply asked whether you wish to make a factual comparison between the two protests you equated; one of which you characterized as 'polite'.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

.. and you didn't actually mean this ?

[A truly progressive society gives even the people they don't agree with,the right tospeak their opinion, and protest.
Not just the ones they agree with.

Yes, that is much to be desired.]

I did, in fact.

"To speak their opinion" is one category of freedom of speech that has been in question. All the kluxers, bigots, anti-vaxers, Western separatists, kooks, psychobabblers, creationists, freaks, nazis and morons have been allowed to say whatever they please in public - short of inciting to violence - equal to the science experts, sages, pundits and jurists. But only the former groups keeps griping - loudly, in print and broadcast media -about being suppressed. In a progressive society, the opinion of people who actually know something would carry more weight than the idjits', but that is not so in our present society. To that extent, we have a good deal of progress yet to make.

"and protest" covers a lot more, and quite different territory. Without regard to their purpose, I approve of some forms  of protest, have taken part is some, condone or tolerate some - disdain, disapprove of and utterly condemn some forms. So, when it comes to a right to protest, I'd need more specifics.

Yes, a progressive society would ideally grant equal rights of protest to all opinions, within the same framework of acceptable behaviour.  The time, place, duration form of the protest would determine the official response - if any is required.

Of course, in that same progressive society, legitimate grievances would be addressed through legal channels in a timely manner, before protest becomes the only way to resolve the issue. And, obviously, the group with the grievance would be civilized enough to direct its protest against the bodies or agencies that occasioned such grievance, rather than violate the rights of uninvolved third parties.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Peterkin