Consciousness

[Phi for All]

10 hours ago, Jasper10 said:

Well the plane I’m grappling to fly in manual has no passengers and I’ve just looked out of the window and can see many other similar planes whose pilots are fast asleep at the cockpit because their planes are flying  on autopilot.

Consider that the planes and pilots you see look fast asleep because the plane is flying just fine. They probably don't think your hand waiving will make it fly better.

[J.Merrill]

3 hours ago, Jasper10 said:

I know from experience that AWARENESS and CONSCIOUSNESS are completely different things.

You can be AWARE that you are “not in the moment” or “not in synch”  and bring yourself back “into the moment” or “back in synch” any time you like. You can exercise that control over consciousness.

It is my opinion that something needs to be aware or not aware and that something is the “I am” which is a PRESENCE.

So it is the “I am” that has awareness and exercises consciousness control.

We have control over what we do, because we are conscious have Sub-Conscious, Self-Conscious and are Conscious of things around us, We can use this with awareness to prevent certain accidents. Or to make decisions that affect our future, for example I am aware the dangers of standing in the middle of the highway, I am conscious of the cars moving toward me, and if I don't move my Future looks dark, and about 6ft down, well i wouldn't be aware or conscious any more id be Dead. We are always conscious there is no switching from awareness to consciousness you have both or its just neurological stimulated receptors firing and responding to things.

I wouldn't disagree that ( ^{Intelligence + Consciousness} ) = Life ( ^{Life + Awareness of Being alive} ) = Self-Consciousness 

If something's is aware that it is alive and conscious it is conscious of being conscious.

[Jasper10]

11 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Consider that the planes and pilots you see look fast asleep because the plane is flying just fine. They probably don't think your hand waiving will make it fly better.

It is my opinion that most of the other planes do fly just fine,you are right.

Most people do spend their whole lives in total unawareness “toggling” between the 2 consciousness states.

However, the problems start when autopilot starts playing up and individuals are forced to try and fly the plane themselves in manual without the instruction manual.

 

22 minutes ago, J.Merrill said:

We have control over what we do, because we are conscious have Sub-Conscious, Self-Conscious and are Conscious of things around us, We can use this with awareness to prevent certain accidents. Or to make decisions that affect our future, for example I am aware the dangers of standing in the middle of the highway, I am conscious of the cars moving toward me, and if I don't move my Future looks dark, and about 6ft down, well i wouldn't be aware or conscious any more id be Dead. We are always conscious there is no switching from awareness to consciousness you have both or its just neurological stimulated receptors firing and responding to things.

I wouldn't disagree that ( ^{Intelligence + Consciousness} ) = Life ( ^{Life + Awareness of Being alive} ) = Self-Consciousness 

If something's is aware that it is alive and conscious it is conscious of being conscious.

Can you prove we are consciousness? no,you can’t.You don’t  even know what it is.

From my experience awareness sits above consciousness.

I am not manual or autopilot consciousness.I am separate from them both.I therefore put manual and autopilot on both sides of the fence,to use an analogy.

[studiot]

1 hour ago, Jasper10 said:

I know from experience that AWARENESS and CONSCIOUSNESS are completely different things.

I would agree with this point of view.

However I disagree with the following statement.

33 minutes ago, Jasper10 said:

From my experience awareness sits above consciousness.

I think the pecking order is quite the reverse.

The exact nature of consciousness is very difficult to pin down and I am not sure I can do that.

But what I understand about awareness is that it is definitely a graduated quality on a measurable scale and appropriate technicians do this all the time, day in day out.
Further this graduation is partly at least under the control of the subject who must be 'conscious', whatever that means.

Equally if that subject is not conscious she will be unable to be aware of many things, again in a scientifically measurable manner.

[J.Merrill]

4 hours ago, Jasper10 said:

Can you prove we are consciousness? no you can’t. You don’t even know what it is.

 

 

Can I prove that we are conscious? Yes, actually.

Is a rock conscious?  The answer is no. Why? Because any form of consciousness requires life.

That fact we are alive is proof we are conscious.  The fact that we are having this discussion now proves that we are aware that we are conscious. And because of these we are conscious that there is a presence of consciousness, it's this makes us Self-conscious.  

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by J.Merrill

[Jasper10]

10 minutes ago, J.Merrill said:

Can I prove that we are conscious? Yes, actually.

Is a rock conscious?  The answer is no. Why? Because any form of consciousness requires life.

That fact we are alive is proof we are conscious.  The fact that we are having this discussion now proves that we are aware that we are conscious. And because of these are conscious that there is a presence of consciousness its this makes us Self-conscious.  

 

 

Well I am now fully aware of the 2 consciousness states of manual and autopilot that both sit on both sides of the fence I.e. 0/1 = 0/1 to use an analogy.

I used to be unaware that I was unaware 0=0 .I had no idea that I “toggled” between manual and autopilot all the time.

I then transitioned to being aware that I was unaware 1=0, I.e. that I disappeared into autopilot all the time and unaware that I was aware 0=1, I.e. that I was handed manual control all the time and then finally I transition to being aware  that I was aware 1=1,I.e. that I did toggle between 2 consciousness states all the time and was able to exercise control over the toggling I.e still it.

[J.Merrill]

3 hours ago, Jasper10 said:

Well I am now fully aware of the 2 consciousness states of manual and autopilot that both sit on both sides of the fence I.e. 0/1 = 0/1 to use an analogy.

I used to be unaware that I was unaware 0=0 .I had no idea that I “toggled” between manual and autopilot all the time.

I then transitioned to being aware that I was unaware 1=0, I.e. that I disappeared into autopilot all the time and unaware that I was aware 0=1, I.e. that I was handed manual control all the time and then finally I transition to being aware  that I was aware 1=1,I.e. that I did toggle between 2 consciousness states all the time and was able to exercise control over the toggling I.e still it.

Lets say the rock magically became conscious. It would not know of any time that passed when it was not. Only an observer of the rock at two different states could tell that the rock was once not conscious. We know at one point we were not alive, and life is required for consciousness. But we only know this through knowledge gained, and understanding of things around us. That rock if wasn't told it was once conscious will never know it was not. Its only " Existing" But it would not know this either as its not self conscious, 

Edited June 18, 2022 by J.Merrill

[studiot]

1 hour ago, J.Merrill said:

Can I prove that we are conscious? Yes, actually.

Is a rock conscious?  The answer is no. Why? Because any form of consciousness requires life.

That fact we are alive is proof we are conscious.  The fact that we are having this discussion now proves that we are aware that we are conscious. And because of these we are conscious that there is a presence of consciousness, it's this makes us Self-conscious.  

 

 

Doesn't that view simply introduce another poorly defined term/concept ?

IMHO there are already have too many such concepts in this thread, particularly consciousness itself.

There is already a current thread about 'artificial' consciousness which would seem to imply that some at least think that life is not necessary, whatever definition of life is chosen.

[Jasper10]

47 minutes ago, J.Merrill said:

Lets say the rock magically became conscious. It would not know of any time that passed when it was not. Only an observer of the rock at two different states could tell that the rock was once not conscious. We know at one point we were not alive, and life is required for consciousness. But we only know this through knowledge gained, and understanding of things around us. That rock if wasn't told it was once conscious will never know it was not. Its only " Existing" But it would not know this either as its not self conscious, 

Well I am of the opinion that SELF needs to be untangled from consciousness otherwise SELF remains a prisoner of it.SELF therefore needs to embrace inward/outward meditation.

Disappearing into an “out of synch”, inward only meditative (consciousness) state,Buddhism meditative practices being a perfect example of this,then embracing duality,then coming to the conclusion that the one that decided to go inward in the first place doesn’t exist is self defeating in my opinion.

[studiot]

2 hours ago, Jasper10 said:

Well I am of the opinion

Does your opinion run to responding to the comments of other members ?

[J.Merrill]

5 hours ago, Jasper10 said:

Well I am of the opinion that SELF needs to be untangled from consciousness otherwise SELF remains a prisoner of it.SELF therefore needs to embrace inward/outward meditation.

Disappearing into an “out of synch”, inward only meditative (consciousness) state,Buddhism meditative practices being a perfect example of this,then embracing duality,then coming to the conclusion that the one that decided to go inward in the first place doesn’t exist is self defeating in my opinion.

Spirituality is not needed for Consciousness to exist, so I'd like to leave that out of any argument or opinion I use. It's not really common to try and link spirituality, philosophy and Science as one. And in many ways are 3 different views of the world.

[Jasper10]

5 hours ago, J.Merrill said:

Spirituality is not needed for Consciousness to exist, so I'd like to leave that out of any argument or opinion I use. It's not really common to try and link spirituality, philosophy and Science as one. And in many ways are 3 different views of the world.

That may be your opinion hoŵver,It is my opinion that you or I would need to provide definitive proof of that.All we both can do is hope that what you say is correct.Other than that and we are both merely guessing.

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, Jasper10 said:

I had no idea that I “toggled” between manual and autopilot all the time.

You don't, you can choose to hold your breath, but the autopilot will kick in before you crash.

 

[Jasper10]

30 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

You don't, you can choose to hold your breath, but the autopilot will kick in before you crash.

 

Ok ..not sure what you mean by that?

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Jasper10 said:

Ok ..not sure what you mean by that?

He means that despite your claims to the contrary, you still very much exist upon an automated biological platform. Autonomic function like breathing and heartbeat, for example, will ALWAYS over power any of your conscious attempts to prevent them.

Try holding your breath… try holding it until you die. You’ll fail. Every time, because you’re automated in multiple and fundamental ways. 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Jasper10 said:

Ok ..not sure what you mean by that?

Think about what you can control...

[J.Merrill]

9 hours ago, dimreepr said:

You don't, you can choose to hold your breath, but the autopilot will kick in before you crash.

 

You can only hold your breath for so long, until you pass out. Then your brain will automatically start your bodies breathing process again, this is why passing out under water causes the person to inhale water and drowned. If this is autopilot, sure I can agree, but you don't toggle that manually. And you surely are not conscious of it if you passed out. So there for is not a part of consciousness, as that requires a form of awareness which requires you to be awake in this particular context.

On 6/18/2022 at 9:44 AM, J.Merrill said:

I wouldn't disagree that ( ^{Intelligence + Consciousness} ) = Life ( ^{Life + Awareness of Being alive} ) = Self-Consciousness 

If something's is aware that it is alive and conscious it is conscious of being conscious.

I must make a correction with a small portion of poor word choice. Life can exist with out intelligence.  Trees are alive but are not intelligent. Trees do not have nervous systems but they can still feel what's going on, and experience something analogous to pain. Because when a tree is cut down or trimmed, it sends electrical signals like wounded Human  tissue. I would start to agree that experience is a part of consciousness. 

 

If a person is born with no sense of taste, touch, sight, or hearing. They are left Smell , they can be conscious of things in the form of smell. Even if they lack the knowledge and the ability to apply the knowledge to Identify what it is they smell. And its not like they can be told what it is, they are deaf and they cant see they are blind.

 

Trees can't see either or hear, but cant rely on other forms of sense to experience things around them, thus trees are conscious but not intelligent.

 

On 6/18/2022 at 12:41 PM, studiot said:

Doesn't that view simply introduce another poorly defined term/concept ?

IMHO there are already have too many such concepts in this thread, particularly consciousness itself.

There is already a current thread about 'artificial' consciousness which would seem to imply that some at least think that life is not necessary, whatever definition of life is chosen.

If some one was born with no sense of anything. Not Vision, Taste, Touch, Smell, Hearing. How could they possibly be conscious? They can't feel emotion either as this requires thought, and being conscious of thoughts. What could they think about if they could not physically feel. If they could not Taste or Touch or Hear. Even if they could move they would not be aware of doing so they lack the natural neurological reactions in the brain to identify these changes. 

So is this person conscious in the context of awake? Well Yes, but are they conscious of being awake, No are they conscious of being alive, and do they have an understanding of anything. They are Living rocks. They just exist.

 

This is consciousness, and this is why AI in the form of Self aware and Like humans but only smarter in every way.  Just is not possible.

Edited June 19, 2022 by J.Merrill

[Jasper10]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Think about what you can control...

I am only referring to the control of consciousness.

It is my opinion that it is not just an automated process, it may appear so if the individual is unaware.

There is a non automated process as well.We experience different consciousness states depending upon which process we are interfacing with.

Awareness sits above consciousness because the individual is either aware or unaware of the automated & non automated “toggling” processes and can even experientially bring oneself out of the automated process into the non automated process at will and at any time.

If the individual lacks awareness then they do not exercise this control and even though they are forced to take control all the time they are not aware of this.

PRESENCE (i am) sits above awareness. 

 

 

 

[NTuft]

Please forgive formatting issues; technical difficulties.
 

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23 hours ago, J.Merrill said:
Is a rock conscious?  The answer is no. Why? Because any form of consciousness requires life.

 I am a goose, standing on a melon rind, pecking at it and not sure why I can't pick it up.

Can we set a dichotomy? Consciousness vs. Mechanicalness, to have a definition?

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On 6/18/2022 at 10:05 AM, Jasper10 said:
Most people do spend their whole lives in total unawareness “toggling” between the 2 consciousness states.

 Was your attention split between your instrumentation (inward observation of functions), your outward observations; and where in space your left 4th toe is located and all associated impressions? 'Till your own field; you cannot know about the level of others, and glib statements about "Most people" should be avoided, IMO, although I'm sure it makes you feel special. 

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On 6/17/2022 at 6:51 PM, J.Merrill said:
This doesn't make any since at all not from philosophical standpoint or practical scientific one. I'm not sure you quite understand the diffrence between Awareness/consciousness , Intelligence and Self-Consciousness . One just cant turn it on and off, not even on accident. The brain wouldn't function well with out our form of consciousness we as humans have today, and its only ascending higher over time. 

We as humans are the most conscious species on Earth.

We share similarities with animals however there are huge differences between the level of consciousness.

Take for example an Ant, and an Ant Eater, the ant doesn't understand its food for the ant eater, and its also highly unlikely the Ant Eater understands fully and is conscious that Ants are food for it. As Food is part of the human language we have given things we eat a broad name called Food.  Most things we safely consume are considered Food or Drinks. The Ant Eater just eats, but does it really know why its doing so? Has it any idea ants tasty nasty? Does it think they taste good? Perhaps it can know fruits taste much better than ants? As stated before Highly unlikely as this would require a high level of consciousness most (NOT ALL) animals don't have. 

1.) Intelligence

Animals are intelligent just like humans are intelligent.

It takes Intelligence to be aware/ conscious. But just because something is intelligent doesn't mean its conscious. For example Calculators and Computers are pretty intelligent right? But they are not conscious or aware of the space they occupy. And the environment around them.

2.) Awareness/ consciousness

Most living things (NOT ALL) with a small level of intelligent and a simple form of consciousness are aware of things like danger and food, and they can feel pain they are aware something hurts if they brake a bone.

We as humans are aware visually[ed.:self-observation|self-remembering, and mentation, operating continuously although at different speed with], physically[moving/body/sexual] center, and emotional[it]y. We are conscious, however our level of consciousness is far more complex then just awareness, almost every living organism is aware in some sense. Like cats are aware, of things like danger and some new studies show they are capable of emotion to a small degree. But does this mean they are as conscious as us? The answer is no.

3.) Self Awareness/Self Conscious 

Knowing that you are human and are different from other species around you is only a small portion of the pie. Knowing that we are on a giant sphere floating somewhere in space is also another small portion of the pie. What about Language, its a necessary element as consciousness increases to a higher level of Self-Consciousness. Language also requires thought even if you don't think long about what you say, you are consciously thinking before you speak. Animals communicate through neurological stimulation and basic instinct, so no " Cats hissing or Dogs barking/ growling are not forms of animals language" as these don't require thought. It's like you blinking if someone flinches at you. It was not you telling yourself to blink. It's a neurological stimulated response, in your brain that does this. [ed.:]Stimulated responses can also change based on adaptation, take for example a child that may have been abused, raising your hand up might trigger a response of them cowering. But I can raise my hand around my kids all day long and they don't even flinch.[this is a poor formulation.]

Almost Every living thing has a form of consciousness some of it is a simple as (ONLY) neurological triggers/stimulations something with a consciousness like this would likely be parasites maybe bacteria or an ant?

There are a lot of things I left out that has to do with consciousness, but humans don't just "TOGGLE" On and Off forms of consciousness. Something is either conscious or not. And Self-Conscious is completely different.

 

Supra job! In places.
A = A. A /= not A.
A = A , A = not A.

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On 6/17/2022 at 10:05 AM, Jasper10 said:
“player” science and philosophy rather than “spectator” science and philosophy takes things to the next level.

Please write a book on Player vs. Spectator philosophy. You will match or exceed Rollo Tomassi.

 

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On 6/17/2022 at 7:53 AM, Jasper10 said:
Both thought types cause an emotional response along with information coming in from the five senses.

  In a machine.

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On 6/16/2022 at 2:41 PM, DrmDoc said:
I agree because this is clearly not a discussion about the science of consciousness.  If it were, this discussion would certainly involve how it likely emerges from and is described by brain function.

 We will assume there is a functional, enclosed vessel, emananating radiations outward, as I read your proposal to state. If the neural tissue ensconcement is actually open to the outside electromagnetic frame, do you suppose that the "radar" like ping out-ping back emerging by brain function is in interplay with the "radar" from other radio sources? What is a radiation vs. an emanation?

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On 6/16/2022 at 2:04 PM, mistermack said:
a machine from being conscious.

  ... Beep boop beep. lol. maybe. i'll argue that a rock is conscious too in a few.

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On 6/16/2022 at 1:20 PM, Jasper10 said:
am a “player” in awareness who controls the consciousness types rather than being an unaware “spectator” who has no control of the consciousness types.This stuff is experimental.You don’t need to define consciousness to be able to take control of it.

  You must observe and remember, first. You can be playing in mud and imagine you're in the 9th heaven.

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On 6/16/2022 at 11:21 AM, Phi for All said:
I don't think your definition is quite right yet. Lots of animals are aware of their surroundings, but I would not ascribe consciousness to them. Human consciousness goes beyond functional awareness and response, since we're able to reflect on how our experiences affect us, behavior no other animal seems to exhibit. 

How to quantify or qualify awareness vs. consciousness? I would infer that linguistics must be necessary for this reflection process you mention. Unless it is non-verbal and the normal dialogue of thinking is otherwise directed.

 

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4 hours ago, dimreepr said:
Think about what you can control...

Many biographers say Epictetus was once a slave. One can be either an unwitting slave, or a conscious servant. Some biographers claim neither slave nor servant.

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4 hours ago, iNow said:
Try holding your breath… try holding it until you die. You’ll fail. Every time, because you’re automated in multiple and fundamental ways.

I have a WooShoe idea for you, but I hold it back (or maybe it is the following). Applying direct physical methods can alter the other functions, and we can have more control over our physiology by training it; less automated.

Quote

21 hours ago, Jasper10 said:
Disappearing into an “out of synch”, inward only meditative (consciousness) state,Buddhism meditative practices being a perfect example of this,then embracing duality,then coming to the conclusion that the one that decided to go inward in the first place doesn’t exist is self defeating in my opinion.

So, maybe something was lost in translation? Or you're alluding to the blissful naval-gazing where one is trying to dissociate? I do not understand exactly...

@Jasper10: 2, 4, 0=0, 1=0, 0=1; Jasper10, How dare you bring mathematics into a consciousness discussion. I do think we need definitions, a different language, to have the discussion and understand each other at all.

Some quotes were left out of reply. Last two replies not read yet.
What if there could be a larger quantifiable gap in consciousness between two men than between a rock and a melon-stepping goose? I think linguistics, and the amount of information we can exchange thereby has set us on a different level. I don't know what consciousness is so I must study it, it would seem. I only have one willing study participant.
@geordief

[studiot]

21 minutes ago, NTuft said:

How to quantify or qualify awareness vs. consciousness? I would infer that linguistics must be necessary for this reflection process you mention. Unless it is non-verbal and the normal dialogue of thinking is otherwise directed.

As already noted quantifying awareness, at least in some cases, is well defined.

What can you see in your peripheral vision ?

Basically nothing at all in general, at least you are not aware of anything.
Now suppose a moving object approaches from your side, you will become aware of this and may even take evasive action.
But opthalmologists have a machine for measuring this precisely.
By testing your 'field of vision' they are measuring your visual awareness.

This is what I meant by

On 6/18/2022 at 6:43 PM, studiot said:

However I disagree with the following statement.

On 6/18/2022 at 6:05 PM, Jasper10 said:

From my experience awareness sits above consciousness.

I think the pecking order is quite the reverse.

The exact nature of consciousness is very difficult to pin down and I am not sure I can do that.

But what I understand about awareness is that it is definitely a graduated quality on a measurable scale and appropriate technicians do this all the time, day in day out.
Further this graduation is partly at least under the control of the subject who must be 'conscious', whatever that means.

Equally if that subject is not conscious she will be unable to be aware of many things, again in a scientifically measurable manner.

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by studiot

[Jasper10]

1 hour ago, NTuft said:

Please forgive formatting issues; technical difficulties.
 

 I am a goose, standing on a melon rind, pecking at it and not sure why I can't pick it up.

Can we set a dichotomy? Consciousness vs. Mechanicalness, to have a definition?

 Was your attention split between your instrumentation (inward observation of functions), your outward observations; and where in space your left 4th toe is located and all associated impressions? 'Till your own field; you cannot know about the level of others, and glib statements about "Most people" should be avoided, IMO, although I'm sure it makes you feel special. 

Supra job! In places.
A = A. A /= not A.
A = A , A = not A.

Please write a book on Player vs. Spectator philosophy. You will match or exceed Rollo Tomassi.

 

  In a machine.

 We will assume there is a functional, enclosed vessel, emananating radiations outward, as I read your proposal to state. If the neural tissue ensconcement is actually open to the outside electromagnetic frame, do you suppose that the "radar" like ping out-ping back emerging by brain function is in interplay with the "radar" from other radio sources? What is a radiation vs. an emanation?

  ... Beep boop beep. lol. maybe. i'll argue that a rock is conscious too in a few.

  You must observe and remember, first. You can be playing in mud and imagine you're in the 9th heaven.

How to quantify or qualify awareness vs. consciousness? I would infer that linguistics must be necessary for this reflection process you mention. Unless it is non-verbal and the normal dialogue of thinking is otherwise directed.

 

Many biographers say Epictetus was once a slave. One can be either an unwitting slave, or a conscious servant. Some biographers claim neither slave nor servant.

I have a WooShoe idea for you, but I hold it back (or maybe it is the following). Applying direct physical methods can alter the other functions, and we can have more control over our physiology by training it; less automated.

So, maybe something was lost in translation? Or you're alluding to the blissful naval-gazing where one is trying to dissociate? I do not understand exactly...

@Jasper10: 2, 4, 0=0, 1=0, 0=1; Jasper10, How dare you bring mathematics into a consciousness discussion. I do think we need definitions, a different language, to have the discussion and understand each other at all.

Some quotes were left out of reply. Last two replies not read yet.
What if there could be a larger quantifiable gap in consciousness between two men than between a rock and a melon-stepping goose? I think linguistics, and the amount of information we can exchange thereby has set us on a different level. I don't know what consciousness is so I must study it, it would seem. I only have one willing study participant.
@geordief

I would say consciousness can be defined as a state of experience.It isn’t awareness that’s for sure.

It is also my opinion that for there to be awareness there needs to be something that is aware.It is my opinion that that something is PRESENCE or the “ i am”.

The “i am” is therefore aware that it experiences the 2 different consciousness states and can decide to move from autopilot to the manual consciousness state any time it likes thus taking more control of thought types of which there are two i.e. inward autopilot thoughts that come in from nowhere and  outward thoughts that are generated in the manual consciousness state by the i am.

 

 

 

 

[NTuft]

1 hour ago, studiot said:

As already noted quantifying awareness, at least in some cases, is well defined.

Quantifying or qualifying?

1 hour ago, studiot said:

What can you see in your peripheral vision ?

Basically nothing at all in general, at least you are not aware of anything.
Now suppose a moving object approaches from your side, you will become aware of this and may even take evasive action.
But opthalmologists have a machine for measuring this precisely.
By testing your 'field of vision' they are measuring your visual awareness.

This is what I meant by

1 hour ago, studiot said:

 

On 6/18/2022 at 10:43 AM, studiot said:

However I disagree with the following statement.

On 6/18/2022 at 10:05 AM, Jasper10 said:

From my experience awareness sits above consciousness.

I think the pecking order is quite the reverse.

The exact nature of consciousness is very difficult to pin down and I am not sure I can do that.

But what I understand about awareness is that it is definitely a graduated quality on a measurable scale and appropriate technicians do this all the time, day in day out.
Further this grad[]ation is partly at least under the control of the subject who must be 'conscious', whatever that means.

Equally if that subject is not conscious she will be unable to be aware of many things, again in a scientifically measurable manner.

 

 

So, you propose that awareness is a function of sensors, which register a change? And you say that consciousness is above this in the pecking order.

 

45 minutes ago, Jasper10 said:

I would say consciousness can be defined as a state of experience.It isn’t awareness that’s for sure.

Surely you don't need to quote my whole post to add these clams.

[Jasper10]

No,it is my opinion that,

Awareness sits above Consciousness.

Presence sits above awareness.

Experience sits in between Awareness and Consciousness.

[studiot]

4 minutes ago, NTuft said:

Quantifying or qualifying?

Since they are taking measurements that is quantifying.

5 minutes ago, NTuft said:

So, you propose that awareness is a function of sensors, which register a change? And you say that consciousness is above this in the pecking order.

Yes I place consciousness above awareness.

No awareness pertains to more than just sensors. The optician example was just that -  a single example.

I was also making the point that awareness is not a binary function of being aware or not aware, although that can be the case sometimes.
At other times there is a whole scale of awareness.

For example:

I am aware there is a world F1 championship going on.
I am also aware of some of the results for some of the drivers, but I am not aware of all the details.

 

Does this help ?

 

[NTuft]

14 minutes ago, Jasper10 said:

No,it is my opinion that,

Awareness sits above Consciousness.

Presence sits above awareness.

Experience sits in between Awareness and Consciousness.

Interesting formulation! What is the difference between awareness and consciousness? How does presence function between these functions?

12 minutes ago, studiot said:

Since they are taking measurements that is quantifying.

How do we qualify the difference between the two? I infer that because awareness is somewhat well defined on a scale of gradations, but that consciousness is not so well defined by gradations, that that is the difference?

12 minutes ago, studiot said:

Yes I place consciousness above awareness.

No awareness pertains to more than just sensors. The optician example was just that -  a single example.

I was also making the point that awareness is not a binary function of being aware or not aware, although that can be the case sometimes.
At other times there is a whole scale of awareness.

For example:

I am aware there is a world F1 championship going on.
I am also aware of some of the results for some of the drivers, but I am not aware of all the details.

 

Does this help ?

 

Quote

 

Further this graduation is partly at least under the control of the subject who must be 'conscious', whatever that means.

Equally if that subject is not conscious she will be unable to be aware of many things, again in a scientifically measurable manner.

I do not know if being aware, colloquially speaking, of F1 standings is awareness properly. It's more like registering a bit of data. But, I do not know how to define these things or understand fully. The second quote I reposted to me sounds like a bare minimum of awareness -- colloquially being 'conscious' only insofar as being able to respond to stimuli.