English Language - words, meanings and context

[StringJunky]

5 minutes ago, geordief said:

You mean a predant?

No, perdant.

[TheVat]

4 hours ago, mistermack said:

Disagree. I think them people what gets it wrong should have been learned to talk scientific. 

What usually makes me wince with "scientific" words like energy and vibrations is that people are often in bullshit mode when they throw them in to the conversation, thinking that it actually makes them sound more educated, when it's really having the opposite effect. It's the failed attempt at bullshit that is cringeworthy.

 

I don't currently have the energy to reply to this.  Or wrap it up neatly and put boson.  

[geordief]

8 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

No, perdant.

Prechance  you are right.

1 minute ago, TheVat said:

I don't currently have the energy to reply to this.  Or wrap it up neatly and put boson.  

Higgsactly

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

It comes across to me that it's the American yearning for the cowboy or pioneering lifestyle.
Pernouncing it "per" is more homespun. They really want to be Paw Clampett.  
Obama obviously knows the word is predict, but he doesn't want to sound like a fancy Chicago Lawyer (which he is) so he has adopted the "per" pronunciation so as not to sound pertentious. To my English ears it IS pertentious, but it's not, to American ears. 
 

I live thirty miles from Deadwood, South Dakota and have rarely heard "perdict." That said, if you say "pree-dict" very fast and slur a bit, not taking time to get the "ee" out, it will sound sort of like "perdict.".   So my guess is that it's not some sort of yearning for a rural folksy thing, but just haste and lack of that delicious British crispness.

Incidentally, in actual cattle ranching regions, it's common to say "stockman" or "ranch hand" in lieu of "cowboy. "

[mistermack]

16 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I don't currently have the energy to reply to this.  Or wrap it up neatly and put boson. 

It's just not in your dna, is it? You probably lack the debating gene. 

 

13 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I live thirty miles from Deadwood, South Dakota and have rarely heard "perdict."

I guarantee you'll hear it all the time now. 

 

13 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Incidentally, in actual cattle ranching regions, it's common to say "stockman" or "ranch hand" in lieu of "cowboy. "

Well, they should get themselves an education, watching John Wayne movies like everybody else. 

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

One more bit of modern american language that grinds my gears is the pronunciation of "pre". As in "perdict"  "pervail"  "pertend"  and "percise" etc etc. It comes across to me that it's the American yearning for the cowboy or pioneering lifestyle.
Pernouncing it "per" is more homespun. They really want to be Paw Clampett.  

Actually, yes, I believe it's meant to. In an attempt not to 'talk down', some public figures condescend to the masses by adopting a vernacular which is not natural to them. What irritates me is when people on forums like this one type in the 'regional dialect' or some invented peasant language. It's a big effort, just to fake ignorance and annoy the reader. 

BTW - there is significant difference between dialect or local vernacular (the slang of a borough, or minority) and ignorance of correct usage. There is a historical or political reason for local dialects - one significant aspect of which may be that it's not understood by outsiders - which puts them on a par with any other language as a vehicle for accurate communication.

There is also a difference between evolution and deterioration. Evolution is a slow process of adapting to changing conditions; old words serving new purposes, but still conveying information. Deterioration can be a result of poor education or deliberate tampering. In the case of American English, both. Some ambiguity is introduced by the advertising industry for the express purpose of misleading the audience; a large part of the deterioration is due to mass entertainment: the script writers' attempt to sound authentic, and also to reach the broadest possible audience. And some of it, the most insidious and effective part of it is done through political propaganda. And this three-pronged attack on language is not only deliberate but very fast - faster than the society can keep up, or assimilate it and make sense of it; so fast that in some regions one generation can barely communicate with the next. And that discontinuity destroys cultures.    

Quote

Obama obviously knows the word is predict, but he doesn't want to sound like a fancy Chicago Lawyer (which he is) so he has adopted the "per" pronunciation so as not to sound pertentious. To my English ears it IS pertentious, but it's not, to American ears.

It's quite possibly unconscious. When we hear a word or phrase often enough, we sometimes pick it up without realizing it. The way 'try and' replaced 'try to' almost universally, some time ago. 'He and I' rather than 'him and me' as objects of preposition is equally ubiquitous. It remains incorrect, with no redeeming information content: people just catch it from one another without reflection. 

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

Being a pedant in social settings is a fool's errand.

How do you define 'social setting' and from what other kinds of setting is it differentiated? To clarify the question: When is it not a fool's errand to be a pedant? I imagine we are fated to walk abroad with Kick Me signs perpetually on our backs.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Peterkin

[swansont]

13 hours ago, iNow said:

Usage is context dependent. It’s arrogant and willfully oblivious to how language and culture themselves evolve to call it is a misuse due merely to differing from how physicists use it.

Yep. As I and others have repeatedly pointed out, there are a number of words where lay definitions and physics ones differ, sometimes significantly. (e.g. coincidence)

I would hope that physicists, at least, would recognize this.

[TheVat]

59 minutes ago, mistermack said:

 

I guarantee you'll hear it all the time now. 

 

 

Maybe.  I will deliver my vredict on that soon.

[swansont]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

One more bit of modern american language that grinds my gears is the pronunciation of "pre". As in "perdict"  "pervail"  "pertend"  and "percise" etc etc.

At best this would be a (regional) dialect. Similar to someone “aksing” a question. 

I’m bothered by the British tendency to drop the “h” that starts a word, or drops an “r” at the end, etc.

(oh, that’s not all Brits who do this? Imagine that!)

45 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

It's quite possibly unconscious. When we hear a word or phrase often enough, we sometimes pick it up without realizing it. The way 'try and' replaced 'try to' almost universally, some time ago. 'He and I' rather than 'him and me' as objects of preposition is equally ubiquitous. It remains incorrect, with no redeeming information content: people just catch it from one another without reflection. 

I’d go with that, rather than assigning a motive without evidence. What we learn when we’re young is hard to change. Consider how some people can’t overcome this when they try to speak another language (“shibboleth” story from the Bible, or the stereotypical scene of a Japanese or Chinese speaker pronouncing “L” and substituting “R” e.g. “lollipop” as “rorrypop”)

[mistermack]

14 minutes ago, swansont said:

I’m bothered by the British tendency to drop the “h” that starts a word, or drops an “r” at the end, etc.

No need to worry. We have a royal family and ruling class that will always show us how to talk gramattical. Drop your h at Eton and you'll be in for a week of buggery by the English master. 

[Peterkin]

25 minutes ago, mistermack said:

We have a royal family and ruling class that will always show us how to talk gramattical.

I wouldn't take that entirely for granted.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

How do you define 'social setting' and from what other kinds of setting is it differentiated? To clarify the question: When is it not a fool's errand to be a pedant? I imagine we are fated to walk abroad with Kick Me signs perpetually on our backs.

Professional or otherwise  critical settings where it is imperative the language needs to be unambiguous and specific.

[Sensei]

59 minutes ago, mistermack said:

We have a royal family and ruling class that will always show us how to talk gramattical.

 

32 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I wouldn't take that entirely for granted.

..now you have Google Translator.. type a word and press play to hear how to pronounce the word correctly..

(Deepl is better than Google Translator, but has less features and less languages)

 

Why, oh why on Earth, people in India don't use this feature (more often) to learn the correct pronunciation..

..you can't believe it's a real teacher..

https://www.facebook.com/todayenglishmadrid/videos/funny-indian-teachers-spelling-english-words/886573301717697/

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Sensei

[Peterkin]

18 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Professional or otherwise  critical settings where it is imperative the language needs to be unambiguous and specific.

Political platform outline? Consumer information? Elementary school Geography class? (If they still have Geography in elementary schools..) Shareholders' meeting? Strategy conference? Church decorating committee meeting? Health advice? Exchange of vehicle-care information? Arranging a date at some designated place at some designated time? Avoiding the annual family melee at the Thanksgiving table? I believe communication matters in all areas of interpersonal relations.

 

15 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Why, oh why on Earth, people in India don't use this feature (more often) to learn the correct pronunciation..

Other places, too, like Canada. An hour ago, I had to hang up on yet another caller whose speech I could not understand. I only knew it was English from the first word of each gabbled sentence. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Peterkin

[geordief]

18 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Why, oh why on Earth, people in India don't use this feature (more often) to learn the correct pronunciation..

Glaswegians too

Should be given their notice if they can't talk intelligible.

 

Mind you  I mightn't be happy  if Danish  english became the norm (or Bronxese)

 

[Peterkin]

PS I'm not mad keen on 'nucular', ether, but I've learned to live it, as I have with shopping at the groshie store and having my teeth repaired by a Dennis.

[Sensei]

2 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Other places, too, like Canada. An hour ago, I had to hang up on yet another caller whose speech I could not understand. I only knew it was English from the first word of each gabbled sentence. 

..outsourcing ICT services to East Asia..

The next time try:

- where are you?

- in Toronto (e.g.)

- what is the time/weather in Toronto?

- (a person in India may have no idea what the time/weather is on the other side of the world)

[Peterkin]

But local or even sloppy pronunciation causes far less actual harm than deliberate obfuscation and misuse of words. 

8 minutes ago, Sensei said:

..outsourcing ICT services to East Asia..

The next time try:

- where are you?

- in Toronto (e.g.)

- what is the time/weather in Toronto?

- (a person in India may have no idea what the time/weather is on the other side of the world)

It doesn't help. She pays no attention whatever to what I am saying, let alone asking. Also, I'd have to understand her answers, and if I couldn't make out the response to "Why are you calling?" I will probably fare no better with a weather report. If it's a cold sales call, no loss. If it's the secretary of a specialist I've been waiting to hear from, that's a problem. Actually, that happened to a close friend of mine. He misunderstood the young woman on the phone and turned down his chance to be scheduled for a much needed cataract operation. Now he has to wait a year, gradually going blind.  

Edited July 6, 2022 by Peterkin

[Sensei]

7 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

She pays no attention whatever to what I am saying, let alone asking.

Here we have computer bots calling people and doing surveys.... Local YouTube is full of people mocking them when they can't answer basic questions..

Such a bot usually resets to the beginning of the script if you still say "Hello" or equivalent.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Sensei

[StringJunky]

18 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Political platform outline? Consumer information? Elementary school Geography class? (If they still have Geography in elementary schools..) Shareholders' meeting? Strategy conference? Church decorating committee meeting? Health advice? Exchange of vehicle-care information? Arranging a date at some designated place at some designated time? Avoiding the annual family melee at the Thanksgiving table? I believe communication matters in all areas of interpersonal relations.

 

Other places, too, like Canada. An hour ago, I had to hang up on yet another caller whose speech I could not understand. I only knew it was English from the first word of each gabbled sentence. 

Pretty fruitless to proactively try to regulate language on others outside of a professionally-regulated setting. You are farting against the wind... it'll just come back at you.

Edited July 6, 2022 by StringJunky

[Peterkin]

6 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Pretty fruitless to proactively try to regulate language on others outside of a professionally-regulated setting. You are farting against the wind... it'll just come back at you.

I place my faith in climate change.

Of course I agree, resistance is futile. Anyway, we'll all be dead soon. But in the meantime, it does no active harm to hold, or even express, opinions.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Peterkin

[geordief]

Listening to Anderson Cooper j on CNN just now he asked his guest whether the subpoena  against Lindsay Graham in Fulton County  ,Georgia could be "squashed"

His guest replied (if I remember correctly) that  it could  probably not be "quashed"

I wonder if AC is a bit challenged in that regard as it may not be the first time I have noticed him make this kind of linguistic  mistake.

I think  he may have said at one time that he was  autistic.Maybe  that could have something to do with it(or maybe  it is just a tricky little word ready to trip us all up)

[Peterkin]

Yes, that is a bit tricky. Squash is a familiar word in everyday use, while quash is almost exclusively used as a legal term, and the two have a similar application as verbs. (Squash also has very dissimilar secondary meanings, as nouns: for a healthy food source, a soft drink in England and a sport... It is one of those OP words.)

Edited July 7, 2022 by Peterkin
how careful one must be!

[Intoscience]

13 hours ago, swansont said:

I’m bothered by the British tendency to drop the “h” that starts a word

This is very common were I live. My ex partner who was from out of the area originally constantly reminded me of this. Her view was similar to mistermack's that people from the area should get a better education on the English language. However she often took it a step further, which was one of a few things that irritated me, by insinuating that all the people from this area are "thick cavemen". 

The use of different dialect and slang doesn't bother me, I find it quite charming. 

[swansont]

9 hours ago, geordief said:

Listening to Anderson Cooper j on CNN just now he asked his guest whether the subpoena  against Lindsay Graham in Fulton County  ,Georgia could be "squashed"

His guest replied (if I remember correctly) that  it could  probably not be "quashed"

I wonder if AC is a bit challenged in that regard as it may not be the first time I have noticed him make this kind of linguistic  mistake.

I think  he may have said at one time that he was  autistic.Maybe  that could have something to do with it(or maybe  it is just a tricky little word ready to trip us all up)

Or maybe it's because he's not a lawyer. Every profession has its own nomenclature, and people outside of that profession won't be as well-versed in the language that is peculiar to it. As Peterkin notes, "quash" is likely one of those terms.