Philosophy II

[Wizard22]

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

If you make a cake, it only has meaning if you can eat it...

So it is meaningful to eat, and survive.

What are more meaningful actions than eating and surviving, any?  Or is that the best Existence has to offer?

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

So it is meaningful to eat, and survive.

What are more meaningful actions than eating and surviving, any?  Or is that the best Existence has to offer?

If make your cake with talc instead of flour you'll end up with a lump of rock, what meaning does that have?

Read this before you answer.

[Wizard22]

13 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

If make your cake with talc instead of flour you'll end up with a lump of rock, what meaning does that have?

Read this before you answer.

It means you'll need to work on your Chef skills.

That's the thing about Meaning...it cannot be only Subjective, as-if you or I can reduce Meaning to our own selves and then use that as evidence or proof as to Life in general.  What does Life in general have in common?  What is the common meaning?  To address the 'Anthropic' principle, and fallacy, any "Meaning of Life" needs to accept and recognize All life, past and present.

So...which actions or values are meaningful than others?

And doesn't Life recognize values "Higher" or more valuable beyond one's own?

Can a collective organization, a tribe, a clan, a nation for example, have a collectivized Meaning?

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

It means you'll need to work on your Chef skills.

That's the thing about Meaning...it cannot be only Subjective, as-if you or I can reduce Meaning to our own selves and then use that as evidence or proof as to Life in general.  What does Life in general have in common?  What is the common meaning?  To address the 'Anthropic' principle, and fallacy, any "Meaning of Life" needs to accept and recognize All life, past and present.

So...which actions or values are meaningful than others?

And doesn't Life recognize values "Higher" or more valuable beyond one's own?

Can a collective organization, a tribe, a clan, a nation for example, have a collectivized Meaning?

You didn't read this did you? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

If you don't ask the right question, you'll never understand the answer...

[Peterkin]

5 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

Furthermore, I don't expect anybody on a Philosophy forum to be convinced so quickly, when it comes to the fundamental Philosophical question as to Meaning of Life, let alone Existence of God, or the Nature of Reality, etc.

Wouldn't you say?

No, I wouldn't. But you have, to your own satisfaction, and that seems to be all you're interested in. I wish you well.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

No, I wouldn't. But you have, to your own satisfaction, and that seems to be all you're interested in.

Ironic, isn't it???

[mistermack]

13 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

I contend with your definition.

How about instead of "relationship", we can use "interpretation"?

So Meaning is the intepretation that Observers have of Events?

In which case there is no limit to the number of different meanings an event can have. So long as there are observers. The meaning of life can be anything you dream up. Which is fair enough. 

But don't forget that your meanings are imaginary, they really don't count for anything more. They might match up to reality, or they might not. But there's only one reality, whereas there are billions of imaginary "meanings".

[Wizard22]

19 hours ago, dimreepr said:

You didn't read this did you? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

If you don't ask the right question, you'll never understand the answer...

I did read it, thank you for the link.

10 hours ago, mistermack said:

In which case there is no limit to the number of different meanings an event can have. So long as there are observers. The meaning of life can be anything you dream up. Which is fair enough. 

But don't forget that your meanings are imaginary, they really don't count for anything more. They might match up to reality, or they might not. But there's only one reality, whereas there are billions of imaginary "meanings".

I don't know about this.

People interpret information through the Senses.  Realism corresponds to how accurate the Sense and information/data is.  For example, if somebody were deaf or blind, senses malfunctioning or erroneous, then this would easily lead to injury or fatality.  So interpretation is very important.  Imagination goes beyond.  Imagine refers to Hypothetical and Theoretical situations.  You don't have to stand in front of a car, let it hit you, to know how dangerous and injurious it is.  You can imagine the danger, threat, injury, and pain.  Alternatively, a malfunctioning imagination might lead a person to believe that he is Stronger than a car.  Or that the Driver will stop or swerve.  So a faulty imagination is just as dangerous, if not more, than faulty Senses.

This can apply to Meaning in the context of False-Meaning.

People can live their lives around a religion, for example, and it turns out that some of their beliefs, or worse a majority, are False or Lies.  Then their "Meaning" in Life was also False and Lies.

 

So we need to account for all this.

[dimreepr]

3 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

People interpret information through the Senses.  Realism corresponds to how accurate the Sense and information/data is.

How do you know?

Is life for a partially sighted person any less real than a person with 20-20 vision?

If so, how?

3 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

For example, if somebody were deaf or blind, senses malfunctioning or erroneous did something without paying attention, then this would could easily lead to injury or fatality.

FTFY

Also, how is this relevant to the topic?

 

[Wizard22]

If you read what mistermack wrote, he said that Meaning is found in the relationship between Observer and Event.  A limitation on the senses (Observation), is likewise a limitation on the Meaning (relationship/interpretation between Observer and Event).

Does that make sense now?

[dimreepr]

12 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

If you read what mistermack wrote, he said that Meaning is found in the relationship between Observer and Event.  A limitation on the senses (Observation), is likewise a limitation on the Meaning (relationship/interpretation between Observer and Event).

Does that make sense now?

No, why would it?

If that's what mistermack wrote, then you're both wrong...

4 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

People can live their lives around a religion, for example, and it turns out that some of their beliefs, or worse a majority, are False or Lies.  Then their "Meaning" in Life was also False and Lies.

If you find peace in the twittering of a religion, how are they false or lies, and how is that not a meaning in life?

 

BTW Twitter is a false religion, in case you were wondering...

[Wizard22]

Can you explain how he or I am wrong?

 

As to False Meaning and Lies, the meaning of such a life is invalidated and undone by a lifetime of actions motivated by false purposes.  For example, you convince a soldier to go to war.  And the war is justified on false grounds.  That soldier, thought he was doing something Good or Just, but then realizes, it was neither Good nor Just.  Such a conflict of meaning can be, and often is, devastating for people who experience such.

You do realize that things like this happens in life, and throughout human history, right?

And that any temporary Meaning derived from lies and falsity, evaporates?  Doesn't this lead that same individual to Nihliism, and belief in Meaningless ideology?

 

Does this not account for why many people are so Demoralized that they do believe "Life is Meaningless"?

Do you relate with this?

[dimreepr]

21 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

Can you explain how he or I am wrong?

I can't be bother to read his post (no disrespect, it's irrelevant), I have explained in the post's above...

21 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

You do realize that things like this happens in life, and throughout human history, right?

Yes:

36 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

If you find peace in the twittering of a religion, how are they false or lies, and how is that not a meaning in life?

BTW Twitter is a false religion, in case you were wondering...

21 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

And that any temporary Meaning derived from lies and falsity, evaporates?  Doesn't this lead that same individual to Nihliism, and belief in Meaningless ideology?

Just because you can't find meaning, that doesn't mean no meaning exists; if you want to find your own meaning, pay attention to "all" of your teacher's (including the nihilist) and when you understand their understanding, you can decide for yourself what is meaningful; which circles back to the subjective nature of the question/s in the OP, and why they're essentially the same question and why you need to think about what you want answered.

 

36 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

As to False Meaning and Lies, the meaning of such a life is invalidated and undone by a lifetime of actions motivated by false purposes.  For example, you convince a soldier to go to war.  And the war is justified on false grounds.  That soldier, thought he was doing something Good or Just, but then realizes, it was neither Good nor Just.  Such a conflict of meaning can be, and often is, devastating for people who experience such.

I just don't agree with your nihilistic approach to life... 😉

Edited July 17, 2022 by dimreepr

[Wizard22]

Response to Sy Borg (opc forum)

I advocate for an Objective analysis of Meaning of Life. Life is Biological. If a man's life is meaningful, then so too is an animal's, so too is a dog's, an alligator's, a zebra's, a turtle's, etc. Subjectivity is a main problem, addressing this question. A Nihilist believes, "because *MY* life has no meaning, then nobody else's has meaning either" or worse, that "all life has no meaning!!!" So Meaning of Life should not be judged according to the absolute Negative, to Annihilation. Why does the Nihilist make such a big fuss? Because s/he is completely Demoralized, Hopeless, Directionless, without a Goal, without a Purpose, etc.

Yet, Nihilism is important in the sense, that sometimes you need to stare into Darkness, before you seek-out the Light, so-to-speak. After you see the Meaning in nothingness, then you can begin to appreciate the Meaning in everythingness.


The Meaning of Life can be answered more pragmatically too... some great men in human history have led millions of other men, whole nations, to Victory. Sometimes this means war, take it for what you will. Great thinkers, scientists, philosophers...great athletes, these ones are most convincing about a "Meaning of Life", or worthwhile Purpose. Most of humanity aspires to greatness, to Heroes and Legends.

Why is Alexander the Great heralded for so many millenniums beyond his death? How about Jesus Christ? Plato? Take your pick.

19 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I can't be bother to read his post (no disrespect, it's irrelevant), I have explained in the post's above...

Yes:

Just because you can't find meaning, that doesn't mean no meaning exists; if you want to find your own meaning, pay attention to "all" of your teacher's (including the nihilist) and when you understand their understanding, you can decide for yourself what is meaningful; which circles back to the subjective nature of the question/s in the OP, and why they're essentially the same question and why you need to think about what you want answered.

 

I just don't agree with your nihilistic approach to life... 😉

On the contrary, I believe that Life is overflowing with Meaning.  This is exactly the opposite of a Nihilist.

Interesting that you would accuse me of the opposite?

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

Response to Sy Borg (opc forum)

I advocate for an Objective analysis of Meaning of Life. Life is Biological. If a man's life is meaningful, then so too is an animal's, so too is a dog's, an alligator's, a zebra's, a turtle's, etc. Subjectivity is a main problem, addressing this question. A Nihilist believes, "because *MY* life has no meaning, then nobody else's has meaning either" or worse, that "all life has no meaning!!!" So Meaning of Life should not be judged according to the absolute Negative, to Annihilation. Why does the Nihilist make such a big fuss? Because s/he is completely Demoralized, Hopeless, Directionless, without a Goal, without a Purpose, etc.

Yet, Nihilism is important in the sense, that sometimes you need to stare into Darkness, before you seek-out the Light, so-to-speak. After you see the Meaning in nothingness, then you can begin to appreciate the Meaning in everythingness.


The Meaning of Life can be answered more pragmatically too... some great men in human history have led millions of other men, whole nations, to Victory. Sometimes this means war, take it for what you will. Great thinkers, scientists, philosophers...great athletes, these ones are most convincing about a "Meaning of Life", or worthwhile Purpose. Most of humanity aspires to greatness, to Heroes and Legends.

Why is Alexander the Great heralded for so many millenniums beyond his death? How about Jesus Christ? Plato? Take your pick.

On the contrary, I believe that Life is overflowing with Meaning.  This is exactly the opposite of a Nihilist.

Interesting that you would accuse me of the opposite?

Interesting that you dismiss the role of religion in the meaning of life; given your copy-n-paste/quote...

Don't make me break out "the parable of the madman"... 🤔

The thing he missed is, a dog doesn't choose it's meaning, it just accepted the meaning given in the place it find's itself; lucky dawg...

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by dimreepr

[Wizard22]

How did I dismiss the role of religion?

Religion does give most people, most of the 'Meaning' of their lives, historically.  Is it not Subjective though, and that it is open to debate?

It is a very powerful statement that a religious person makes that "God gives me Meaning in Life".  I'm not making that claim, but, how will you address it?

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

How did I dismiss the role of religion?

Quote

People can live their lives around a religion, for example, and it turns out that some of their beliefs, or worse a majority, are False or Lies.  Then their "Meaning" in Life was also False and Lies.

 

2 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

Religion does give most people, most of the 'Meaning' of their lives, historically.  Is it not Subjective though, and that it is open to debate?

Of course it's subjective, which means the only debate that's open, is with yourself...

2 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

It is a very powerful statement that a religious person makes that "God gives me Meaning in Life".  I'm not making that claim, but, how will you address it?

If you're content with your meaning, you're a lucky dog... 😇 😉

[Wizard22]

Just because Religion can be wrong, false, and lie, doesn't mean it's absolute.

Many people do find their Meaning in Life through religion, and perhaps, rightly so.

Like most institutions, at least there is some small wisdom and meaning to derive from it.

[dimreepr]

9 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

Just because Religion can be wrong, false, and lie, doesn't mean it's absolute.

Just because religion can be used and taught wrongly, doesn't mean the philosophy is wrong, false or lies; when, for example, is it wrong to forgive, be nice or help our fellow human's?

16 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

Many people do find their Meaning in Life through religion, and perhaps, rightly so.

Indeed...

22 minutes ago, Wizard22 said:

Like most institutions, at least there is some small wisdom and meaning to derive from it.

If you understand the wisdom, you can teach others the meaning of it, whatever size (be it small, medium or large); if you don't understand the wisdom, you'll only confuse them, and yourself... 

[Wizard22]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:23 AM, dimreepr said:

Just because religion can be used and taught wrongly, doesn't mean the philosophy is wrong, false or lies; when, for example, is it wrong to forgive, be nice or help our fellow human's?

Indeed...

If you understand the wisdom, you can teach others the meaning of it, whatever size (be it small, medium or large); if you don't understand the wisdom, you'll only confuse them, and yourself... 

I believe Religion is dependent upon natural Morality, not the other way around.  People cooperate and help each-other, because it is in their genetic and tribal interests to do so.

Religion is a proxy for Imperialism.  It is the necessary enforcement of a dominant political faction, OVER the authority of human tribes.  Thus those tribes are subjugated in the service of that religion, and must repeat its Dogma as a virtue-signal.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Wizard22 said:

I believe Religion is dependent upon natural Morality, not the other way around.  People cooperate and help each-other, because it is in their genetic and tribal interests to do so.

People still need to be taught how to cooperate and help each-other, which is better done from a moral POV; imagine a world taught by Jeff Bezos/Trump et al using their moral compass, no wait... 🤔

2 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

Religion is a proxy for Imperialism.  It is the necessary enforcement of a dominant political faction, OVER the authority of human tribes.  Thus those tribes are subjugated in the service of that religion, and must repeat its Dogma as a virtue-signal.

You're conflating religion with politics, those in the know understand what piety really mean's...

[naitche]

I don't see how you can claim an 'objective meaning' to life. 

What are you actually asking here? 

What is its value? Its purpose? 

Objectively, surely that would be to live? To be.

If life is the objective.

All else is subjective, if any value is to be assigned that act.

Those expressions of value contributed direct the collective form taken, even if individually, those are limited to their own perceptions of reality.

Edited July 28, 2022 by naitche

[dimreepr]

11 hours ago, naitche said:

I don't see how you can claim an 'objective meaning' to life. 

What are you actually asking here? 

What is its value? Its purpose? 

Objectively, surely that would be to live? To be.

If life is the objective.

All else is subjective, if any value is to be assigned that act.

Those expressions of value contributed direct the collective form taken, even if individually, those are limited to their own perceptions of reality.

I can only assume that you haven't read any of this thread, because all of your points have already been covered, in far more detail; it's a bit rude to assume you have anything to add too a two page thread, by answering the OP; given the simplicity of your post.

Edited July 28, 2022 by dimreepr

[Wizard22]

On 7/26/2022 at 4:29 AM, dimreepr said:

People still need to be taught how to cooperate and help each-other, which is better done from a moral POV; imagine a world taught by Jeff Bezos/Trump et al using their moral compass, no wait... 🤔

You're conflating religion with politics, those in the know understand what piety really mean's...

Many mammals do not need to be "taught" how to play with kin.  Some of it is instinctual.

Implication is not good enough here, demonstrate what you mean by 'piety' then...

On 7/27/2022 at 5:49 PM, naitche said:

I don't see how you can claim an 'objective meaning' to life. 

What are you actually asking here? 

What is its value? Its purpose? 

Objectively, surely that would be to live? To be.

If life is the objective.

All else is subjective, if any value is to be assigned that act.

Those expressions of value contributed direct the collective form taken, even if individually, those are limited to their own perceptions of reality.

"The Meaning of Life, is Life" this answer isn't going to cut it.  I believe most will agree on this.

Surviving is implicit in Life.  What it means to Live, also is what it means to Survive.  So we're not really questioning any Meaning/Value/Purpose here.

What does it mean Objectively?  Well Biology is the objective study of Life per se; but 'Meaning' is something different and falls into the realm of Philosophy.

 

Can Science study "Meaning"?  Perhaps.  If anybody wants to look at the 'value' of Life, scientifically and empirically, then all you need to do is observe and study how some organisms fight to survive, while others tend to rollover and die.  Why do some organisms and species fight hard, to survive, but not others?  Why are some organisms smarter than others, or more evolved?  Or, try this one out—why do higher intelligence and evolution imply a 'Meaning' to life, let alone "more" Meaning than others?

I can get as complex as anybody wants to—but you need to Want it.  Few people question Meaning of Life; Fewer still answer it.

[dimreepr]

3 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

Many mammals do not need to be "taught" how to play with kin.

Name one, and please include, how you know.

3 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

Implication is not good enough here, demonstrate what you mean by 'piety' then...

A demonstration is very different to an explanation (a demonstration is, most often, far easier) due to language unspoken; if you tell me what you think piety mean's, it will give me a better chance to explain what I mean.

4 hours ago, Wizard22 said:

Can Science study "Meaning"?  Perhaps.  If anybody wants to look at the 'value' of Life, scientifically and empirically, then all you need to do is observe and study how some organisms fight to survive, while others tend to rollover and die.  Why do some organisms and species fight hard, to survive, but not others?  Why are some organisms smarter than others, or more evolved?  Or, try this one out—why do higher intelligence and evolution imply a 'Meaning' to life, let alone "more" Meaning than others?

I can get as complex as anybody wants to—but you need to Want it.  Few people question Meaning of Life; Fewer still answer it.

Please read the thread again, but this time read it, without your filters/bias/ego, as if you want to learn (and yes you need to want too).

Philosophy isn't about being right, it's about knowing your own foibles and applying that understanding to other's, you can't teach until you've understood the lesson...