If you get down in the mud with pigs, you end up smelling like one

[MigL]

Peterkin and others are constantly complaining about Republicans redrawing voting districts, and changing rules in an effort to keep minorities from voting.
And rightly so; this is obviously an attack on democracy, as evidenced by the fact that they still win elections even though more people voted or their opponent.

What then should we make of the situation in North Carolina ?

NC Green Party rejection sparks claims of unfair undermining by national Democrats | WFAE 90.7 - Charlotte's NPR News Source

https://youtu.be/omwJ4b3uNOc

https://youtu.be/mQWrJV1q0KU

Seems the Democrats have jumped in the mud with the pigs.

Now you could make the argument that Republicans have done much worse, but that would be 'whataboutism'.
Or you could argue that Green votes will take votes away from Democrats and their effort to defeat Republicans, but that flies against democratic principles.

Do we need to pinch our noses when casting ballots because of the stench ? 
Is there no party with integrity left ?

 

( politics section seems kind of slow; thought I'd release the brake, and get it moving )
 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by MigL

[mistermack]

This is unfair to pigs. If humans were kept like pigs, we would smell worse than pigs. Human pee and shit smell worse than that of pigs. Especially when it's gone a bit stale. And human body odour, if we were kept like pigs, would be really rank.

So the title should make it clear that, if we got down in the mud with pigs, they might well end up smelling like us. 

[OldChemE]

Yes-- both parties in America are getting down to that level.  Whether or not it will continue will depend on voters (which includes my wife and myself).  The really disgusting part is that all my life I have registered to vote as a Republican, because I prefer lower taxes, less centralized government, and a closer adherence to the US Constitution (which of course means all should be able to vote).  Nothing that is going on now seems to align with my political preferences.

[CharonY]

https://www.vox.com/22961590/redistricting-gerrymandering-house-2022-midterms

Interesting summary on that topic.

 

[geordief]

12 hours ago, MigL said:

Peterkin and others are constantly complaining about Republicans redrawing voting districts, and changing rules in an effort to keep minorities from voting.
And rightly so; this is obviously an attack on democracy, as evidenced by the fact that they still win elections even though more people voted or their opponent.

What then should we make of the situation in North Carolina ?

NC Green Party rejection sparks claims of unfair undermining by national Democrats | WFAE 90.7 - Charlotte's NPR News Source

https://youtu.be/omwJ4b3uNOc

https://youtu.be/mQWrJV1q0KU

Seems the Democrats have jumped in the mud with the pigs.

Now you could make the argument that Republicans have done much worse, but that would be 'whataboutism'.
Or you could argue that Green votes will take votes away from Democrats and their effort to defeat Republicans, but that flies against democratic principles.

Do we need to pinch our noses when casting ballots because of the stench ? 
Is there no party with integrity left ?

 

( politics section seems kind of slow; thought I'd release the brake, and get it moving )
 

 

 

What is the situation over the past decades (and  much,much longer,I suppose)?

Has one party  been gerrymandering more than the other?

 

 

When this topic came up on CNN some months back I assumed both sides must have been at it since who is a saint?

 Whoever's  has a  "head start" then a  reset might be to the others' advantage.

 

[iNow]

14 hours ago, MigL said:

Now you could make the argument that Republicans have done much worse, but that would be 'whataboutism'.

I'm sympathetic to this point. I'm also unsure what else one might do to overcome the challenge you cite.

If Republicans are redrawing district lines to keep winning even when they get fewer votes... and if it's the winners who get to redraw district lines... and those who lose elections have no power to make things better because the power goes to those who win... regardless of how they won, the winners get to choose what happens in the next election... What else do you recommend be done to move the situation to a better place?

Again, I'm sympathetic to the situation you cite. I share your desire for more integrity. We align completely on the need for the US to be better and elections more fair...

But should the Democrats keep bringing plastic knives to the Republicans proverbial gun fight? How does that allow things to get better since those who win get to make the rules which shape who is able to win in the future?

Unilateral disarmament is not an effective strategy here, IMO. 

[TheVat]

Given the current clear danger to democracy posed by the Right, I am not too concerned if Democrats are legitimately pointing out the need for everyone on the Left/Middle to band together.  Small niche parties like the Green can hurt Democratic chances in some close contests, and there's nothing wrong with saying so.  Is snagging a couple points for your niche group really worth the consequences like another Trumpian president and/or a Republican Congress?  FFS we're trying to save the Republic from fascists and theocrats and King Coal?  How Green is your country going to be if it's run by Trump, Inc.?  

You don't sit around polishing your trophies and picking  nits from the carpets when the house is on fire.

[Peterkin]

15 hours ago, MigL said:

What then should we make of the situation in North Carolina ?

We should probably determine whether the objection to the petition was valid. It appears to have been, so, but not sufficient to throw out the whole list. 

The party line voting is pretty much a given in US politics (other countries, too!) but the motivation is not entirely clear. Closing ranks behind one member who did something underhanded, but in their own eyes forgivable, for a small advantage? Automatically voting for anything that might dilute the other party's base, regardless of its validity? Both are common reactions.

Strategic voting is not entirely unknown to Canada, either - to the detriment of the Green Party in particular. I guess they know the drill by now: their best option is to support a party than can win and persuade it to adopt their platform, or join a party that can win and advocate for their platform -- which is routinely done.

While the situation doesn't come to near the scope or effectiveness of gerrymandering  and voter suppression (i.e. not quite the equivalent of what I've been 'constantly complaining' about), wrong is still wrong, and ought to be righted. From the most egregious to the most trivial, there are so many flaws inherent in the present electoral system and so many accumulated abuses and corruptions over time, by whichever party had the opportunity at one time or another, that it has become barely reflective of the will of the people: only marginally and sporadically democratic.  The two-party system is an unlikely stage on which it can be righted. The electoral college is an unlikely tool for righting it. And the current Supreme Court is not the champion to accomplish it.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Peterkin

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

But should the Democrats keep bringing plastic knives to the Republicans proverbial gun fight? How does that allow things to get better since those who win get to make the rules which shape who is able to win in the future?

Personally, I think many folks have wheels on this particular goalpost for ease of movement. The Democrats aren't tough enough, aren't willing to do what it takes, can't organize the way the GOP does, keep tapdancing around the issues. Until they do, and then they're pigs in the mud, no better than their opponents. Heads they suck, tails they blow.

[iNow]

44 minutes ago, TheVat said:

FFS we're trying to save the Republic from fascists and theocrats and King Coal?  How Green is your country going to be if it's run by Trump, Inc.?  

You don't sit around polishing your trophies and picking  nits from the carpets when the house is on fire.

Along these same lines, in districts where Democrats KNOW they're going to lose, some are strategically switching parties to vote for the non-MAGA republican candidate. A clear example is Liz Cheney who's policies run almost 100% contrary to nearly any democrat, but since she's still better than the MAGA alternative some Dems are changing party registration to lend her their vote. 

This isn't about acting in an ideal situation. It's about strategic choices when the only choices are evil and slightly lesser evil. You go with the lesser of the two. 

18 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Heads they suck, tails they blow.

It's the wife's fault the husband keeps abusing her... obviously. 🙄

[dimreepr]

I've never been able to smell how much I stink, and I don't wash...

[Peterkin]

48 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Personally, I think many folks have wheels on this particular goalpost for ease of movement. The Democrats aren't tough enough, aren't willing to do what it takes, can't organize the way the GOP does, keep tapdancing around the issues. Until they do, and then they're pigs in the mud, no better than their opponents. Heads they suck, tails they blow.

I quite like this comparison. Until the Democrats are tough enough to be willing to do how Republicans do, they're just as bad as the Republicans. 

Keratosis and melanoma are both skin blemishes. Why quibble over which one you have on your face?

17 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I've never been able to smell how much I stink, and I don't wash...

That's fine as long as you're alone. A subjective sample of 1, however, doesn't give you the statistically significant comparison. 

Try riding a crowded downtown bus late on Friday night.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Peterkin

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I quite like this comparison. Until the Democrats are tough enough to be willing to do how Republicans do, they're just as bad as the Republicans. 

I like this piece by Perry Bacon Jr: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/06/03/democrats-2022-midterms-agenda-contract-with-america/

Take a good page from the Republican playbook (you have to go all the way back to Newt Gingrich to find one), the Contract With America, and let The People know exactly what you're trying to accomplish for Them. Give them 52 Democratic Senators and 218 Democratic Representatives, and they promise to tick the list and bring some relief to the vast majority of Americans. 

I blame Christian Nationalism for much of our current dilemma, so I'm not sure whether to add an item or not. Some of these folks are spoiling for another holy war.

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

blame Christian Nationalism for much of our current dilemma, so I'm not sure whether to add an item or not. Some of these folks are spoiling for another holy war

They have reason to be cocky. **Since Nixon and Billy Graham, their political influence has been courted by candidates, and their power has grown along with the white supremacist faction's, as the Republican Party, at the federal level, and even more obviously in the state governments, have catered to their demands in preference to the general population's interests. That holy war is simply one flank of an all-fronts attack. Once they've broken the United States and its accustomed form of government, they'll turn on one another. Very cold comfort!  

Afterthought. It's a bit more complicated, and harks back to another cozy bedfellow of the political right. https://history.princeton.edu/about/publications/one-nation-under-god-how-corporate-america-invented-christian-america And now, of course the death industry supports God and Jesus has learned to love guns. https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/In-god-and-guns-they-trust/article14005414.ece

Edited July 13, 2022 by Peterkin