Classified Documents

[CharonY]

In case you are curious, here is the warrant https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/mar-a-lago-search-warrant-and-inventory/6478c5980764438f/full.pdf

Quote

A list of documents removed from former President Donald J. Trump’s Florida residence, Mar-a-Lago, includes materials marked as top secret and meant to be viewed only in secure government facilities, according to a copy of the warrant obtained by The New York Times.

Federal agents who executed the warrant did so to investigate potential crimes associated with violations of the Espionage Act, which outlaws the unauthorized retention of national security information that could harm the United States or aid a foreign adversary; a federal law that makes it a crime to destroy or conceal a document to obstruct a government investigation; and another statute associated with unlawful removal of government materials.

Sections of the warrant and an accompanying inventory were reported earlier in the The Wall Street Journal on Friday. The search on Monday seized 11 sets of documents in all, including some marked as “classified/TS/SCI” documents — shorthand for “top secret/sensitive compartmented information,” according to the report.

In total, agents collected four sets of top secret documents, three sets of secret documents and three sets of confidential documents. Included in the manifest were also files pertaining to the pardon of Roger J. Stone Jr., a longtime associate of Mr. Trump, and material about President Emmanuel Macron of France.

 

[toucana]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/08/12/mar-a-lago-raid-fbi-investigating-whether-trump-violated-these-3-statutes/?sh=88ab59725c1a

This Forbes article lists the legal codes cited in the attachments to the Mar-a-Lago search warrant sought by the FBI as:

18 Code  §§ 793  - Espionage Act (1917)

18 Code  §§ 1519 - Destruction, alteration, falsification of records in a federal  investigation (Obstruction)

18 Code  §§ 2071 - Concealment or mutilation of federal documents

The interesting legal nuance here is that the classification status of the documents involved is immaterial under these particular codes. This disposes of any claim by Trump that he ‘declassified’ them while still in office.

Other reporting by ABC, CNN and BBC indicates that the FBI search team removed up to another 20 boxes of documents from Mar-a-Lago, and found at least 11 sets of classified documents including some classified as TS-SCI and some as TS.

[Peterkin]

Well, but it turns out, all those documents are automatically de-classified. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/08/12/trump-says-mar-a-lago-documents-declassified-experts-disagree/10310614002/?gnt-cfr=1    

Read: "Anything Trump's seen is not a secret anymore."

Besides, who doesn't bring their work home after they've been fired?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/13/us/postal-worker-caught-dumping-mail-in-pennsylvania-trnd/index.html

[swansont]

5 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Well, but it turns out, all those documents are automatically de-classified. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/08/12/trump-says-mar-a-lago-documents-declassified-experts-disagree/10310614002/?gnt-cfr=1    

That’s not what the not-paywalled bit says.

Many documents are automatically de-classified on the date listed on the document (sometimes determined by some rule) but it doesn’t happen on a whim.

Automatic declassification is the declassification of information based upon the occurrence of a specific date or event as determined by the original classification authority; or the expiration of a maximum time frame for the duration of classification established under the Order (25 years)

…

The presumption is that 25 year old information is declassified unless it clearly falls under one or more of the 9 exemption categories in section 3.3(b) of the Order and has been specifically exempted by an agency head or senior agency official.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/open/declassification/declassification-faq

 

5 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Read: "Anything Trump's seen is not a secret anymore."

Not being secret doesn’t mean it’s declassified. 

[Peterkin]

46 minutes ago, swansont said:

That’s not what the not-paywalled bit says.

That's not the truth, obviously. But is not what Trumps says?

47 minutes ago, swansont said:

Not being secret doesn’t mean it’s declassified. 

Yes, I knew that. Also that Trump is known to blab, bluster, twitter, rant and blurt.

I was attempting to be humorous.

[toucana]

Reports of DOJ concerns about the possible presence of TS-SCI documents at Mar-a-Lago relating US to nuclear weapons came into sharper focus yesterday when some commentators raised the possibility that these might have been CNWDI (critical nuclear weapon design information) documents.

https://www.directives.doe.gov/terms_definitions/critical-nuclear-weapon-design-information-cnwdi

This is a DoD category of TS and RD (restricted data) information about the design and construction of nuclear implosion and fusion devices. In addition to the normal TS/RD markings, material of this type is also marked “Critical Nuclear Weapon Design Information - DoD Directive 5210.2 Applies”. As previously noted, material of this type cannot be declassified by a presidential executive order alone, it also requires a separate sign-off from the DOE and the AEC under the Atomic Energy Act (1954)

To give some idea of how serious this could be - it was the dissemination of CNWDI which led to the conviction and execution of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in 1953 under the Espionage Act of 1917. As one commentator put it  - “10-20 isn’t the sentencing guidelines, it’s what the groundsman tells your family when they come to visit  - Row 10/Plot 20”.

Edited August 14, 2022 by toucana
typo 'critical'

[iNow]

Toucana - You seem to post news snips like you’re trying to be an AP reporter, but rarely frame any discussion. Why?

[TheVat]

I don't know, it seemed like this is Julius and Ethel Rosenberg serious was a useful prod to discussion.  

With some news, res ipsa loquitur.

Can anyone conceive of an innocent reason why someone would take H bomb design information home with them?  (grandkids like coloring in the diagrams?  make spectacular 4th of July fireworks?  tired of real estate, thinking of second career in nuclear engineering?  Offbeat theme for wallpaper?)

If this proves true, I think Trump's supporters will start to melt away like they did in that room at the end of Dave, where Frank Langella, the villain, looks around and his crowd has quietly vanished.

Edited August 14, 2022 by TheVat
Riffing

[toucana]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Toucana - You seem to post news snips like you’re trying to be an AP reporter, but rarely frame any discussion. Why?

I tend to start with facts  - which I think ought to be the baseline of any rational and scientific debate. I then normally try and follow that up by offering a precis of any background information which has required spadework in terms of further research and fact checking on my part, and which I make available in my posts as a courtesy to anyone else who has taken an interest in the topic.

I’m not quite sure why you find this approach to ‘discussion’ problematic. It may be because you think a discussion should be more of an exchange of subjective opinions. The actual etymology of the word discussion is however from the Latin noun discussio  - which in turn comes from the Latin verb discutere - ‘to investigate’.

[iNow]

4 hours ago, toucana said:

I’m not quite sure why you find this approach to ‘discussion’ problematic.

It was just a question. Usually, starting discussions involves framing the topic and asking for the opinions of others. Or, asking for clarity on topics that aren’t opinion based. 

Basically, my ”problem” is that your approach doesn’t really lead to discussion since you’re just posting things we can already read elsewhere.

That, too, is fine… but preferable if you ask a question or solicit input from others and not just treat it like a data dump, but mostly I asked bc I was curious. 

4 hours ago, toucana said:

It may be because you think a discussion should be more of an exchange of subjective opinions.

On some topics, like those on politics and not hard science, that’s exactly what I think (so long as those opinions are based on reason and evidence and a willingness to change one’s mind when faced with rational counter points).

I hope it’s obvious that my view is different on subjects like math and physics. 

4 hours ago, toucana said:

The actual etymology of the word discussion is however from the Latin noun discussio  - which in turn comes from the Latin verb discutere - ‘to investigate’

You should work harder to foster the discussion you seem to prize then, instead of copy/pasting definitions and leads from stories (since neither qualifies as investigation, an approach is heartily support were you to use it). 

Edited August 14, 2022 by iNow

[toucana]

My initial post did in fact frame a very precise question —> “Why in the world would an ex-president remove such material from the custody of the National Archives, and store it in an insecure basement area of his retirement home in Florida ?”

The only plausible answer I can think of is that he planned to sell it to the highest bidder

[Peterkin]

25 minutes ago, toucana said:

The only plausible answer I can think of is that he planned to sell it to the highest bidder

There appears to be some indication that something like that has already taken place. Is this true?

But, as I may have mentioned earlier, two other possibilities are plausible:

That they contain information about his and close associates' wrongdoing,

and

That they contain information he may be able to use against political adversaries or rivals.

The top secret stuff would be neither of those other two, so the first guess is likely the correct one.

 

[iNow]

57 minutes ago, toucana said:

My initial post did in fact frame a very precise question —> “Why in the world would an ex-president remove such material from the custody of the National Archives, and store it in an insecure basement area of his retirement home in Florida ?”

So it did. Please accept my apologies. I’ve obviously made the mistake of conflating this thread with several of your others. 

Here is the answer I shared:

On 8/12/2022 at 8:19 AM, iNow said:

More likely to me is it was another grift to secure LARGE sums of money in exchange for info, most likely from the Saudis (who have also already given more than $2 Billion to Jared Kushner for extremely questionable reasons) and potentially even Russia. 

 

[MigL]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

That they contain information about his and close associates' wrongdoing,
and
That they contain information he may be able to use against political adversaries or rivals.

That would be my thinking also.
D Trump has shown himself to be very vindictive, if he feels he's been wronged.
These classified files were nothing more than 'leverage'.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

These classified files were nothing more than 'leverage'.

That's always assuming he even knew what they were about. I've heard that he never read the actual documents sent to him, but had either the text or a precis read to him by someone [Jared] else (and - this may be humorous anecdote - they had to insert his name in every second paragraph in order to hold his attention). My understanding, from published works by ex-employees, is that DJT was not particularly conscientious in carrying out the details of his job description. There follows the suspicion that he wasn't really familiar with the contents of the documents he abstracted on departure from the White House. (and still doesn't know)

[swansont]

17 hours ago, TheVat said:

If this proves true, I think Trump's supporters will start to melt away like they did in that room at the end of Dave, where Frank Langella, the villain, looks around and his crowd has quietly vanished.

Nah. There will still be some people, attached like remoras, who defend the actions. There are already those who are supporting the "TFG waved his hands and said 'abracadabra' so they aren't classified anymore" narrative, and some saying that a little bit of treason is OK (lots of overlap in those groups, of course)

Some supporters will abandon him, as selling out his country will be the final straw. But the ones who can simultaneously believe that TFG was allowed to take the documents, and they were declassified by his incantation, the documents were returned and oh, by the way, everything was planted? Anyone who can believe such mutually exclusive things are probably sticking with him.

(If TFG ever saw the movie, he probably rooted for Langella's character)

[Phi for All]

22 hours ago, iNow said:

Toucana - You seem to post news snips like you’re trying to be an AP reporter, but rarely frame any discussion. Why?

!

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[TheVat]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

Nah. There will still be some people, attached like remoras, who defend the actions. There are already those who are supporting the "TFG waved his hands and said 'abracadabra' so they aren't classified anymore" narrative, and some saying that a little bit of treason is OK (lots of overlap in those groups, of course)

Some supporters will abandon him, as selling out his country will be the final straw. But the ones who can simultaneously believe that TFG was allowed to take the documents, and they were declassified by his incantation, the documents were returned and oh, by the way, everything was planted? Anyone who can believe such mutually exclusive things are probably sticking with him.

(If TFG ever saw the movie, he probably rooted for Langella's character)

Thanks, I had a spasm of undue optimism re human nature, but all better now.  And you're right, there will always be remoras.  And LOL the former guy rooting for Langella.  (if there is a media character he really aspires to emulate, it's my guess it's Frank Underwood on House of Cards)

 

 

[swansont]

44 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Thanks, I had a spasm of undue optimism re human nature, but all better now.  And you're right, there will always be remoras.  And LOL the former guy rooting for Langella.  (if there is a media character he really aspires to emulate, it's my guess it's Frank Underwood on House of Cards)

I have imagined TFG et al. rooted for Cutler Beckett in the 2nd and 3rd Pirates of the Caribbean movies

[Alex_Krycek]

On 8/14/2022 at 5:06 PM, toucana said:

Reports of DOJ concerns about the possible presence of TS-SCI documents at Mar-a-Lago relating US to nuclear weapons came into sharper focus yesterday when some commentators raised the possibility that these might have been CNWDI (critical nuclear weapon design information) documents.

https://www.directives.doe.gov/terms_definitions/critical-nuclear-weapon-design-information-cnwdi

This is a DoD category of TS and RD (restricted data) information about the design and construction of nuclear implosion and fusion devices. In addition to the normal TS/RD markings, material of this type is also marked “Critical Nuclear Weapon Design Information - DoD Directive 5210.2 Applies”. As previously noted, material of this type cannot be declassified by a presidential executive order alone, it also requires a separate sign-off from the DOE and the AEC under the Atomic Energy Act (1954)

To give some idea of how serious this could be - it was the dissemination of CNWDI which led to the conviction and execution of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in 1953 under the Espionage Act of 1917. As one commentator put it  - “10-20 isn’t the sentencing guidelines, it’s what the groundsman tells your family when they come to visit  - Row 10/Plot 20”.

This aligns with the idea that Trump had plans to sell the secrets to the Saudis, who have wanted nuclear weapons for years.

Remember, all Trump cares about is money.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/jared-kushner-theories-swirl-over-242b-saudi-money-after-trump-mole-claims/ar-AA10DUzU

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

Remember, all Trump cares about is money.

No, it's not.

He desperately wants to be important - preferably crowned emperor of America the Great - and he craves constant attention; needs to be center stage.

In the case of these documents, I think he told his stooges to bring all the good stuff, but they knew how illegal it was, so they just grabbed whatever they could as fast as they could and scarpered. None of them knew exactly what they had stolen; they just handed it over and Trump (who doesn't know what's in any document, because he doesn't read)

Quote

President Donald Trump largely eschews the written version of his daily intelligence briefing in favor of an oral presentation with lots of pictures, according to a Washington Post piece published Friday.

which is why they sat in an unsecured basement storage for a year and half. That doesn't sound as if he were looking to cash in, so much as just own the presidential stuff, as if he still had a right to it. Pretending. He still doesn't know what he's taken, or what it's worth to whom.

[iNow]

8 hours ago, Peterkin said:

which is why they sat in an unsecured basement storage for a year and half. That doesn't sound as if he were looking to cash in

It does if you recall the extreme likelihood that he was inviting foreign nationals into his resort along with their phones and cameras to take pictures of it. This isn’t exactly a prospect that strains credulity. It almost certainly happened. 

[Peterkin]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

It does if you recall the extreme likelihood that he was inviting foreign nationals into his resort along with their phones and cameras to take pictures of it. This isn’t exactly a prospect that strains credulity. It almost certainly happened. 

I'm still skeptical. If they're valuable and he's marketing them, surely he would take care that nobody who hadn't paid up had a chance to look at them. Documents are not the kind of merchandise you just let prospective buyers handle and look over; you dole them out page by page to select bidders. Just speculating, of course.

[geordief]

13 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I'm still skeptical. If they're valuable and he's marketing them, surely he would take care that nobody who hadn't paid up had a chance to look at them. Documents are not the kind of merchandise you just let prospective buyers handle and look over; you dole them out page by page to select bidders. Just speculating, of course.

Michael Cohen was just speculating  -quite forcefully on CNN that he could have had  (or could have claimed he had) copies made and shared with associates  and   so could blackmail the police into dropping  serious charges against him  by threatening  to release them.

 

He called it his "get out of jail card"

Edited August 17, 2022 by geordief

[iNow]

19 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

If they're valuable and he's marketing them, surely he would take care that nobody who hadn't paid up had a chance to look at them

Nonsense. He’d show them off to Group A bc he’s an insecure narcissistic braggart then charge Group B money to see them minutes later without any qualms, compunctions, or second thoughts. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by iNow