Rejection of climate science.

[bazzy]

I seem to be seeing a number of influences who are rejecting the science for climate change on economical grounds whilst at the same time arguing that those who understand the science are "brainwashed".

With recent laws being passed in our government requiring a minimum 48% reduction i believe in greenhouse gasses by 2050. I know the target should be 2030 however i believe now there is a direction we will probably be able to hit a higher target quicker. the argument is that the economical hit that will have due to our low contribution to the total around 1.5%. that being said because our (Australia) low population it puts us up near the top of the list with greenhouse gas production and when you consider the effects Australian branded coal has its even worse.

that being said i am seeing a lot of armchair experts that seem to be pushing the argument that it is our transition to renewables namely solar that is the cause the sharp increase in power prices on the local market. this i find very interesting especially when you step back and look at the market our recent cost increase in power production has a direct correlation between global coal and gas prices and is compounded by energy producers who where deliberately holding back electricity supply because "it was not profitable enough" to put generates online. so it is a direct result of fossil fuels that our power prices are so expensive.

Looking at countries that have either reached or is close to 100% renewable energy they are all at the bottom of the list when it comes cost of energy. namely Norway and Iceland who have power prices i would dream of, so it seems to be a fallacy to argue that renewable energy is more expensive. additionally a very large portion of our Country is sprawling barren desert that would easily house acres and acres of solar power. our country is surrounded in ocean so tidal power generation is an additional option along with wind power all tied in together would easily meet any power generation needs very cheaply.

So the question i have to ask is why is there such opposition from the right wing conservative minded people to this transition. I mean kicking and screaming comes to mind.

The influence i am thinking of recently quoted what one of our leading climate scientists said and then disagreed with him that we should do something about it claiming that we don't contribute much to the global percentage then claimed it would increase the cost of electricity locally.

 

[iNow]

1 minute ago, bazzy said:

i am seeing a lot of armchair experts that seem to be pushing the argument that it is our transition to renewables namely solar that is the cause the sharp increase in power prices on the local market

And those “experts” are either ignorant, lying, or both. 

3 minutes ago, bazzy said:

why is there such opposition from the right wing conservative minded people to this transition. I mean kicking and screaming comes to mind.

Money and willful ignorance. 

[exchemist]

50 minutes ago, bazzy said:

I seem to be seeing a number of influences who are rejecting the science for climate change on economical grounds whilst at the same time arguing that those who understand the science are "brainwashed".

With recent laws being passed in our government requiring a minimum 48% reduction i believe in greenhouse gasses by 2050. I know the target should be 2030 however i believe now there is a direction we will probably be able to hit a higher target quicker. the argument is that the economical hit that will have due to our low contribution to the total around 1.5%. that being said because our (Australia) low population it puts us up near the top of the list with greenhouse gas production and when you consider the effects Australian branded coal has its even worse.

that being said i am seeing a lot of armchair experts that seem to be pushing the argument that it is our transition to renewables namely solar that is the cause the sharp increase in power prices on the local market. this i find very interesting especially when you step back and look at the market our recent cost increase in power production has a direct correlation between global coal and gas prices and is compounded by energy producers who where deliberately holding back electricity supply because "it was not profitable enough" to put generates online. so it is a direct result of fossil fuels that our power prices are so expensive.

Looking at countries that have either reached or is close to 100% renewable energy they are all at the bottom of the list when it comes cost of energy. namely Norway and Iceland who have power prices i would dream of, so it seems to be a fallacy to argue that renewable energy is more expensive. additionally a very large portion of our Country is sprawling barren desert that would easily house acres and acres of solar power. our country is surrounded in ocean so tidal power generation is an additional option along with wind power all tied in together would easily meet any power generation needs very cheaply.

So the question i have to ask is why is there such opposition from the right wing conservative minded people to this transition. I mean kicking and screaming comes to mind.

The influence i am thinking of recently quoted what one of our leading climate scientists said and then disagreed with him that we should do something about it claiming that we don't contribute much to the global percentage then claimed it would increase the cost of electricity locally.

 

Yes, I read an article in the Financial Times this week by Fatih Birol, the (very experienced) head of the International Energy Agency, in which he described the notion that the renewables push is responsible for high energy prices as "absurd".  The high prices are of course due to the war in Ukraine, and both Russia and the EU's reaction to that. Also, OPEC has refused to fill the gap in fossil fuel supply, no doubt realising that the world is moving away from fossil fuel and they might as well get as much for it as they can, while they can. High energy prices should be accelerating the move to renewables. Anyone who thinks the answer is to carry on relying on fossil fuel at these prices, which OPEC shows every sign of wanting to maintain, is an idiot.  

Regarding Australia, it is sitting on much of the world's supply of lithium, which is vital for batteries and hence will be a strategically critical resource in years to come. I should have thought Australia's mining industry should be transitioning to that, away from coal, at top speed, to secure export revenues for the coming decades. At the moment, China does all the processing of Li. Not great, strategically : they could be the next Russia. Maybe Australia should take a look at Li processing, i.e. a spot of vertical integration. They'd have plenty of support for that from the rest of the world, I'm sure. Could probably charge a premium for the added security of supply. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by exchemist

[bazzy]

15 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Regarding Australia, it is sitting on much of the world's supply of lithium, which is vital for batteries and hence will be a strategically critical resource in years to come. I should have thought Australia's mining industry should be transitioning to that, away from coal, at top speed, to secure export revenues for the coming decades. At the moment, China does all the processing of Li. Not great, strategically : they could be the next Russia. Maybe Australia should take a look at Li processing, i.e. a spot of vertical integration. They'd have plenty of support for that from the rest of the world, I'm sure. Could probably charge a premium for the added security of supply. 

I believe there is talk of ramping up Lithium production. However this is drawing opposition too usually from the same groups who like to argue there is no suitable energy storage technologies, despite there being a number of Australian companies developing electrical and thermal storage technologies using investment from overseas. until recently the government has shown little interest.

[exchemist]

Just now, bazzy said:

I believe there is talk of ramping up Lithium production. However this is drawing opposition too usually from the same groups who like to argue there is no suitable energy storage technologies, despite there being a number of Australian companies developing electrical and thermal storage technologies using investment from overseas. until recently the government has shown little interest.

That's crazy. The whole world needs Li for EVs, never mind storage for a renewable-based power grid, where batteries are just one (partial) solution.  

[mistermack]

If I was in power, I would give a government subsidy for each unit of reclaimed Lithium, so that it would be worth building up the industry and technology. The industry always follows the money. There's no point in waiting till it actually starts to pay. There might be a hell of a lot of good material gone down the drain by then. 

[Ken Fabian]

11 hours ago, bazzy said:

i am seeing a lot of armchair experts that seem to be pushing the argument that it is our transition to renewables namely solar that is the cause the sharp increase in power prices

Yes, in the face of a fossil fuel energy crisis, where the fossil fuel industry promised gas would make the transition to low emissions easier, with greater reliability and lower cost - and failed to deliver - plus the combination of downward renewables costs and high fossil fuel prices, it is more important to them that it be reframed as a green energy crisis. They'll take the windfall super profits and fiercely resist reducing them to mere very good profits to save economies from disaster, whilst making out they are being badly, unfairly treated because of "unreasonable" climate concerns.

I am not convinced people apart from the climate science and renewable energy deniers will believe them except that they have large parts of the media and mainstream politics - powerful influencers - onside. Not sure to what extent politicians are beholden or cowed or actually believe them but most seem unwilling to challenge them.

I think climate concerns are not - and never will - go away. People know that global warming is real and what is responsible. And electricity grid operators like the Australian Electricity Market Operator - AEMO - aren't fooled either - and are calling for greater investment in renewables as the solution to energy supply, high prices and price volatility, even aside from emissions concerns.

The arbitrary division between responsibility and accountability of end consumers and absence of it applying to producers (actually a full inversion of long established legal principles) allows a forked tongue approach for Australian politicians, where assurances that they will give full support for fossil fuels for exports are also assurances that miners that currently service local demand will have future opportunities even if domestic emissions reductions efforts succeed. In a way they are turning the efforts by environmental activists to urge personal responsibility and personal action back at climate activism by encouraging perceptions that it is consumers, not energy producers that have to embrace and lead the way with change - knowing most people will resist any change that appears to reduce their immediate prosperity and that resistance flows through to tolerance of commercial resistance to change. 

I don't think we can demand consumers change much until the low emissions alternatives are in place and available - ie following, not preceding, change at the supplier/producer level.

It is institutional change that is pivotal; my climate activism is mostly about getting the economy wide changes in place rather than applying guilt to consumers who didn't choose the kind of society and economy they are part of or what it takes to be a productive citizen or decide what energy markets make available to them and to the companies that do the products and services they use.

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Ken Fabian

[bazzy]

additionally in some states in like queensland people who have Solar installations are actively discouraged in the way of an additional daily charge for having solar. I have 15Kw solar system at my address and i tend to use the energy hungry appliances during the day while the solar is producing so that i am not pulling power from the grid.

I also believe there has been a bit of gaming the system when it comes to power generation too.

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Moved to politics, since this seems to be more about policy than science

 

[exchemist]

4 hours ago, bazzy said:

additionally in some states in like queensland people who have Solar installations are actively discouraged in the way of an additional daily charge for having solar. I have 15Kw solar system at my address and i tend to use the energy hungry appliances during the day while the solar is producing so that i am not pulling power from the grid.

I also believe there has been a bit of gaming the system when it comes to power generation too.

I think I would expect the new Albanese government to remove obstacles to renewable electricity generation. Of all countries on Earth, Australia has good reason to take climate change very seriously indeed. Seems like a no-brainer. But I'm intrigued. 15kW is quite a bit. What area of solar panels do you need for that?  

[NTuft]

On 9/11/2022 at 6:07 AM, bazzy said:

I seem to be seeing a number of influences who are rejecting the science for climate change on economical grounds

Piers Corbyn disagrees with the global warming science, partly on economic grounds.

On 9/11/2022 at 7:14 AM, bazzy said:

there is no suitable energy storage technologies, despite there being a number of Australian companies developing electrical and thermal storage technologies using investment from overseas. until recently the government has shown little interest.

What are these new electrical and thermal storage technologies?

Edited September 18, 2022 by NTuft
climate change->global warming