Christianity; the myth of resurrection

[NewAgeReason]

Christianity advocates spirit rebirth. That's what the born again christian thing is all about. A million dollar industry. 

But Jesus came back to life PHYSICALLY. Teach me how to achieve physical reincarnation and I'll go to church, so to speak. 

The point is, are churches calling the spirit rebirth (be born again or suffer in hell) the same thing as the physical rebirth? If so aint that a lie against the bible?

Spirit rebirth= born again = what happened to jesus = untrue. 

Jesus= born again physically like frankenstein. No spirit mumbo jumbo in the resurrection. 

Thoughts?

[Phi for All]

!

Moderator Note

Moved from the Lounge to Religion.

 

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

Christianity advocates spirit rebirth. That's what the born again christian thing is all about. A million dollar industry. 

But Jesus came back to life PHYSICALLY. Teach me how to achieve physical reincarnation and I'll go to church, so to speak. 

The point is, are churches calling the spirit rebirth (be born again or suffer in hell) the same thing as the physical rebirth? If so aint that a lie against the bible?

Spirit rebirth= born again = what happened to jesus = untrue. 

Jesus= born again physically like frankenstein. No spirit mumbo jumbo in the resurrection. 

Thoughts?

The tyranny of choice is what we do to ourselves...

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, NewAgeReason said:

Spirit rebirth= born again = what happened to jesus = untrue. 

Jesus= born again physically like frankenstein. No spirit mumbo jumbo in the resurrection.

It's nice to see you bring an open, inquiring mind to the subject.

No, that's not how it works. Jesus was neither reborn nor born again (two different theological concepts, incidentally) ; he rose up from death in order to deliver his final message and give his troops their marching orders, as it were, before ascending to his rightful post-mortal home in Heaven. He invited the Jewish people to believe in him and follow him there - a very new idea to his contemporaries and widely rejected. It was taken up by other peoples, however, as the apostles travelled abroad, preaching their gospel. In some places, it took more readily than in others - depending on the cultural norms, tolerance level of governments, degree of dissaffection and disillusion with the prevailing religion. Most if not all of these territories were under Roman control, and the Roman policy was generally to let the natives worship however they liked, as long as they paid their tithes and didn't revolt. 

The "born again" idea is about baptism. Basically, it means that the converted individual renounces the tribe into which he was born and dedicated himself to the tribe of Christians. The ritual was adapted from an ancient Jewish custom of purification - washing of sins - which was performed also on Jesus, by his forerunner, a bush preacher called John the Baptist.   

And your problem is...?

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, NewAgeReason said:

Christianity advocates spirit rebirth. That's what the born again christian thing is all about. A million dollar industry. 

But Jesus came back to life PHYSICALLY. Teach me how to achieve physical reincarnation and I'll go to church, so to speak. 

The point is, are churches calling the spirit rebirth (be born again or suffer in hell) the same thing as the physical rebirth? If so aint that a lie against the bible?

Spirit rebirth= born again = what happened to jesus = untrue. 

Jesus= born again physically like frankenstein. No spirit mumbo jumbo in the resurrection. 

Thoughts?

My chief thought is you could look this up, if you really wanted to know. A subsidiary one is that you don't seem to be very good at expressing yourself clearly.  

Making a big deal out of the "born again" thing is only done by certain Protestant sects within Christianity, largely in the USA. For the rest, baptism is a ritualised symbol of joining the community of Christianity, by metaphorically washing away the "original sin" of humanity with which everyone is said to be born. That's why infant baptism (christening)  is the general practice in most denominations. Christ's resurrection concerns a different piece of doctrine: that of the Atonement. It does again relate to the original sin idea, however.  

[NewAgeReason]

56 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

It's nice to see you bring an open, inquiring mind to the subject.

No, that's not how it works. Jesus was neither reborn nor born again (two different theological concepts, incidentally) ; he rose up from death in order to deliver his final message and give his troops their marching orders, as it were, before ascending to his rightful post-mortal home in Heaven. He invited the Jewish people to believe in him and follow him there - a very new idea to his contemporaries and widely rejected. It was taken up by other peoples, however, as the apostles travelled abroad, preaching their gospel. In some places, it took more readily than in others - depending on the cultural norms, tolerance level of governments, degree of dissaffection and disillusion with the prevailing religion. Most if not all of these territories were under Roman control, and the Roman policy was generally to let the natives worship however they liked, as long as they paid their tithes and didn't revolt. 

The "born again" idea is about baptism. Basically, it means that the converted individual renounces the tribe into which he was born and dedicated himself to the tribe of Christians. The ritual was adapted from an ancient Jewish custom of purification - washing of sins - which was performed also on Jesus, by his forerunner, a bush preacher called John the Baptist.   

And your problem is...?

my issue with christianity/churches is that why the hell would i go to church to pursue a 'spirit rebirth'? if you can teach me how to come back to life from the physical death, that i'd love to do. but churches dont teach us how. 

 

 

[Peterkin]

25 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

my issue with christianity/churches is that why the hell would i go to church to pursue a 'spirit rebirth'?

You wouldn't. So you probably don't. That shouldn't be a problem, either for you of the church you don't go to.

Why people who go to churches do so is between them and their gods.

26 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

if you can teach me how to come back to life from the physical death,

I can't and wouldn't if I could. There are too many of us walking like zombies already; we sure don't need the ranks swelled by actual zombies.

 

27 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

but churches dont teach us how. 

No. They teach quite different things.

[exchemist]

34 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

my issue with christianity/churches is that why the hell would i go to church to pursue a 'spirit rebirth'? if you can teach me how to come back to life from the physical death, that i'd love to do. but churches dont teach us how. 

 

 

Indeed. Nor do they teach you how to become a millionaire, or how to fly. Scandalous, isn’t it?

[studiot]

15 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

You wouldn't. So you probably don't. That shouldn't be a problem, either for you of the church you don't go to.

Why people who go to churches do so is between them and their gods.

I can't and wouldn't if I could. There are too many of us walking like zombies already; we sure don't need the ranks swelled by actual zombies.

 

No. They teach quite different things.

 

Nice calm replies to some needlessly imflammatory unscientifc words.  +1

[Peterkin]

11 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Nor do they teach you how to become a millionaire,

....although...

Quote

The prosperity gospel is an umbrella term for a group of ideas — popular among charismatic preachers in the evangelical tradition — that equate Christian faith with material, and particularly financial, success.https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/1/15951874/prosperity-gospel-explained-why-joel-osteen-believes-prayer-can-make-you-rich-trump

it doesn't actually happen, except to the promulgators of the belief.

[exchemist]

15 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

....although...

it doesn't actually happen, except to the promulgators of the belief.

Haha, yes indeed. Now that’s a really evil scam, preying on the hopes of the poor to impoverish them further.

[NewAgeReason]

44 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Indeed. Nor do they teach you how to become a millionaire, or how to fly. Scandalous, isn’t it?

the point im kinda tryna make is...when they say 'born again' and point to jesus, everybody gushes with anticipation. can we be as jesus? sons of god? spiritually, says the church. but using the physical rebirth and 'spiritual' rebirth interchangeably...

[studiot]

11 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

the point im kinda tryna make is...when they say 'born again' and point to jesus, everybody gushes with anticipation. can we be as jesus? sons of god? spiritually, says the church. but using the physical rebirth and 'spiritual' rebirth interchangeably...

The moderator moved this to the politics forum, but this still remains a scientific website  and the rules say the religous section is for the scientific discussion of religous matters.

It would be scientific to note and discuss the difference between certain christain denominations in respect of trans-substantiation beliefs, but not to look for justification in believing them or to mock them or supports them.

[swansont]

3 hours ago, NewAgeReason said:

The point is, are churches calling the spirit rebirth (be born again or suffer in hell) the same thing as the physical rebirth?

Are they? Do you have specific examples of anyone saying this? (keep in mind that “born again” is practiced in only a subset of Christian churches/denominations)

 

3 hours ago, NewAgeReason said:

If so aint that a lie against the bible?

The Bible speaks in allegory and metaphor a lot, doesn’t it? It speaks of eternal life, but that obviously doesn’t mean physical - everyone dies.

So where is the lie if you’re using the same literary devices to sell the same product? It’s all the same truth, or the same lie, depending on if you’re a believer or not.

1 hour ago, NewAgeReason said:

if you can teach me how to come back to life from the physical death, that i'd love to do. but churches dont teach us how. 

I think you need the religions that incorporate reincarnation for that. 

[exchemist]

34 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

the point im kinda tryna make is...when they say 'born again' and point to jesus, everybody gushes with anticipation. can we be as jesus? sons of god? spiritually, says the church. but using the physical rebirth and 'spiritual' rebirth interchangeably...

I'm afraid I don't know much about the "born-again" sects. They are a minority in Christianity.

[Peterkin]

55 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Now that’s a really evil scam, preying on the hopes of the poor to impoverish them further.

Is that so different from the state lotteries?

 

39 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

the point im kinda tryna make is...when they say 'born again' and point to jesus,

They don't. I've already explained this: Jesus was not born again. He was born once in human form, killed, resurrected in that same form, then lifted up to heaven. No rebirthing, no second life.

39 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

everybody gushes with anticipation. can we be as jesus? sons of god?

No, they don't. The ones who believe that he sacrificed his earthly life to redeem their sins are still required to renounce those sins, to dedicate their lives to christian values and hope to live in Heaven after their earthly life ends. No rebirth. 

39 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

spiritually, says the church. but using the physical rebirth and 'spiritual' rebirth interchangeably...

Nobody was, except you. It's not unusual for people who can't be bothered to comprehend the basic principles of a doctrine before criticizing it to be hostile. It's not unusual to use bad grammar in forum posts; though phonetic representation of sloppy speech is quite unnecessary, some people do it, simply to emphasize their disrespect. 

What's unusual is for me to waste this much effort on them. I must really be avoiding some chore!  

Edited September 12, 2022 by Peterkin

[NewAgeReason]

18 minutes ago, swansont said:

Are they? Do you have specific examples of anyone saying this? (keep in mind that “born again” is practiced in only a subset of Christian churches/denominations)

 

The Bible speaks in allegory and metaphor a lot, doesn’t it? It speaks of eternal life, but that obviously doesn’t mean physical - everyone dies.

So where is the lie if you’re using the same literary devices to sell the same product? It’s all the same truth, or the same lie, depending on if you’re a believer or not.

I think you need the religions that incorporate reincarnation for that. 

every denomination agrees on one thing, if you are spiritually reborn you enter heaven. 

the point is, when the bible, as opposed to the church, speaks about said rebirth, they referring to physical rebirth like frankenstein. scientifically dubious perhaps the idea of resurrection.

[exchemist]

2 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

every denomination agrees on one thing, if you are spiritually reborn you enter heaven. 

the point is, when the bible, as opposed to the church, speaks about said rebirth, they referring to physical rebirth like frankenstein. scientifically dubious perhaps the idea of resurrection.

Where do you get that idea from? It's quite wrong. For most Christians, baptism simply brings you into the Christian community. What is needed for an individual to get to heaven starts from there.   

[Peterkin]

36 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

the point is, when the bible, as opposed to the church, speaks about said rebirth, they referring to physical rebirth like frankenstein. scientifically dubious perhaps the idea of resurrection.

No, they don't.

I'm going to clean the litter box now.

[swansont]

57 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

the point is, when the bible, as opposed to the church, speaks about said rebirth, they referring to physical rebirth like frankenstein

What parts of the Bible say this?

 

[NewAgeReason]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

What parts of the Bible say this?

 

i refer to the new testament story that describes how jesus was crucified and then came back from the dead physically. 

[swansont]

43 minutes ago, NewAgeReason said:

i refer to the new testament story that describes how jesus was crucified and then came back from the dead physically. 

Yes, Jesus. (it’s a name, you should capitalize) 

Where does it say this about anyone else? That it will happen for anyone else?  You were talking of this being promised to churchgoers.

[Peterkin]

Quote

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

resurrection at the last day - that's when they rise, not before, not like Frankenstein's rags-and-patches monster

You and I can't, because we don't believe. Them's the rules. 

[dimreepr]

15 hours ago, NewAgeReason said:

i refer to the new testament story that describes how jesus was crucified and then came back from the dead physically. 

Did you ever consider, that it's just that, a story; a metophor designed to teach a lesson, it's not the story that's to blame if you don't understand the lesson.

For intance:

"John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Could mean, other people will come to understand what I'm trying to teach independent of me, i.e. the idea shall rise again, much like my re-interpretation of the old testament.

Or it could mean, God had a change of heart and decided to re-animate a human, instead of smiting the rest of us; to make it's point...

 

[Intoscience]

22 hours ago, NewAgeReason said:

my issue with christianity/churches is that why the hell would i go to church to pursue a 'spirit rebirth'? if you can teach me how to come back to life from the physical death, that i'd love to do. but churches dont teach us how. 

 

 

How do you know that your physical life is any better than your spiritual one? Assuming so, that your spirit lives on and is eternal then I would hope that eternal happiness is part of that story also. Physical life is full of suffering, this is the point and what Jesus was basically promoting, that when you die (assuming you follow his teachings) then you will ascend to something greater than that which you now experience. 

If people want to believe this, it gives them hope and eases the suffering they may endure in life then I think its a good thing and no harm is done. If people choose to use religion for other less moral or more damaging agenda then it becomes an issue.   

If your going to sell something to someone they need to be convinced its going to be of some benefit. You can't sell them an eternal physical life story because there is no evidence of people living eternally. But cleverly what you can sell them is an eternal spiritual life, for a number of reasons this is an easy one to sell. First off, you don't get your prize until you physically die so its a one way ticket. Secondly, no one can refute the claim convincingly because once you die you can't come back and tell everyone about it, so there is no proven evidence either way. Thirdly, the selling tactic is that you must believe (buy into it) to guarantee your prize, so you have sort of nothing to lose if it turns out a crock, but potentially plenty to lose if it turns out to be true.   

Edited September 13, 2022 by Intoscience