Is time a position ?

[Ned]

I have provided a special clock that measures time ! 

 

[iNow]

Special, like in a short bus kind of way?

[Intoscience]

What do you mean by special?

Time is used as a coordinate along with the 3 dimensions of space, e.g. "I'll meet you for lunch at the Café Royal at 1pm". 

Your question is a bit like asking is dimension a position? 

Your clock is just showing coordinates on a chart, there are an an infinite number of discreet positions. From your chart are you suggesting that the direction of time goes around in a circle so eventually you end up back in the past?    

[Ned]

30 minutes ago, iNow said:

Special, like in a short bus kind of way?

My simple clock demonstrates many things that is why it is so special ! 

If science wants to argue that time speeds up or slows down then they have to disagree about velocity . 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

What do you mean by special?

Time is used as a coordinate along with the 3 dimensions of space, e.g. "I'll meet you for lunch at the Café Royal at 1pm". 

Your question is a bit like asking is dimension a position? 

Your clock is just showing coordinates on a chart, there are an an infinite number of discreet positions. From your chart are you suggesting that the direction of time goes around in a circle so eventually you end up back in the past?    

The clock is special because it shows many things but perhaps this version of the same clock may be easier to understand for you . 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Ned

[studiot]

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

What do you mean by special?

Time is used as a coordinate along with the 3 dimensions of space, e.g. "I'll meet you for lunch at the Café Royal at 1pm". 

Your question is a bit like asking is dimension a position? 

Your clock is just showing coordinates on a chart, there are an an infinite number of discreet positions. From your chart are you suggesting that the direction of time goes around in a circle so eventually you end up back in the past?    

 

Good question +1

Pity Ned avoided answering it.

[Intoscience]

2 hours ago, Ned said:

My simple clock demonstrates many things that is why it is so special ! 

If science wants to argue that time speeds up or slows down then they have to disagree about velocity . 

 

 

The clock is special because it shows many things but perhaps this version of the same clock may be easier to understand for you . 

I still don't understand what your idea is trying to portray from this diagram??

What is virtual time?

In what manner is history recorded?  

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

First rule of the speculations section:

Speculations must be backed up by evidence or some sort of proof. If your speculation is untestable, or you don't give us evidence (or a prediction that is testable), your thread will be moved to the Trash Can. If you expect any scientific input, you need to provide a case that science can measure.

I see nothing here that is testable or constitutes evidence. There is no measurement that is suggested.

Your diagrams convey far less information than you think they do.

 

[Ned]

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I still don't understand what your idea is trying to portray from this diagram??

What is virtual time?

In what manner is history recorded?  

Virtual time is space-time and history is recorded at 1.s of history per 1.s passed measure . The diagrams portray the exact measure of time and what time is , demonstrating time is invariant , not variant . 

I

3 hours ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

First rule of the speculations section:

Speculations must be backed up by evidence or some sort of proof. If your speculation is untestable, or you don't give us evidence (or a prediction that is testable), your thread will be moved to the Trash Can. If you expect any scientific input, you need to provide a case that science can measure.

I see nothing here that is testable or constitutes evidence. There is no measurement that is suggested.

Your diagrams convey far less information than you think they do.

 

Dear Moderator , if speculations were backed up with evidence wouldn't that make it facts rather than speculation ? I am confused . 

The drawings themselves are evidence of the process of measuring time . 

[swansont]

9 minutes ago, Ned said:

Dear Moderator , if speculations were backed up with evidence wouldn't that make it facts rather than speculation ?

The evidence itself would be a fact, but the theoretical framework that incorporates it is not.

 

One might posit a model of motion that depends on invisible fairies. That's not factual, even though a ball dropping a certain distance in a certain amount of time is an experimental fact.

 

9 minutes ago, Ned said:

I am confused . 

Of that I have no doubt.

[joigus]

10 hours ago, Ned said:

I have provided a special clock that measures time ! 

 

Let me guess... It's either time for lunch or time to go to sleep.

The second one is my present position.

[Ned]

33 minutes ago, joigus said:

Let me guess... It's either time for lunch or time to go to sleep.

The second one is my present position.

Is your present position ever any different from your position in time ? 

The rate of history is constant , the rate of timing history is presently broken ! 

 

 

43 minutes ago, swansont said:

The evidence itself would be a fact, but the theoretical framework that incorporates it is not.

 

 

When two rockets travel at the same speed in different directions , d/t proves one of the clocks was innacurate ! 

 

55 minutes ago, swansont said:

 

 

Of that I have no doubt.

To add more facts , the Caesium atoms frequency can change without there being any motion of the clock by changing the climate control ! 

We didn't need to fly atomic clocks around the world , we could of left them stationary and changed the climate control to ''fake a time dilation''  showing a change of frequency ! 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Ned

[swansont]

4 hours ago, Ned said:

To add more facts , the Caesium atoms frequency can change without there being any motion of the clock by changing the climate control ! 

We didn't need to fly atomic clocks around the world , we could of left them stationary and changed the climate control to ''fake a time dilation''  showing a change of frequency ! 

That’s why we take great pains to make sure such perturbing effects are minimized. IOW, this is taken into account.

(to call it fake time dilation is to admit that one doesn’t understand time dilation)

[Ned]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

That’s why we take great pains to make sure such perturbing effects are minimized. IOW, this is taken into account.

(to call it fake time dilation is to admit that one doesn’t understand time dilation)

Science knew the Caesium atom frequency was a variant before they defined time to equal the frequency . They have to set climate control to keep a steady state . 

I know alot about time dilation and know that Δu∝Δf .  u is internal energy and f is frequency , I am sure you aware the given time value is arbitrary ? 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Ned

[swansont]

10 hours ago, Ned said:

Science knew the Caesium atom frequency was a variant before they defined time to equal the frequency . They have to set climate control to keep a steady state . 

Yes, we do. We also know that the frequency shifts in the presence of electric and magnetic fields. We also know why these shifts occur.

 

10 hours ago, Ned said:

I know alot about time dilation and know that Δu∝Δf .  u is internal energy and f is frequency , I am sure you aware the given time value is arbitrary ? 

And what is the source of this equation? (e.g. a textbook, or journal article) Because that's not time dilation.

[Ned]

59 minutes ago, swansont said:

Yes, we do. We also know that the frequency shifts in the presence of electric and magnetic fields. We also know why these shifts occur.

 

And what is the source of this equation? (e.g. a textbook, or journal article) Because that's not time dilation.

The source of the equation is just math symbols off the internet that I've put together to explain why the frequency of the Caesium shifts . I am aware that isn't the time dilation calculation. However , my equation is the correct physics for the process . 

The correct terms for what science calls a time dilation is a synchronization offset , there is no change of time as demonstrated already with my provided models  . 

You asked for evidence , the models I provided are evidence and I ask the ''judge'' to allow those as evidence . The equation I provided is also evidence and the fact that the Caesium can alter frequency by climate control is additional evidence and support . 

Consider it this way , science is practically claiming they can slow down or speed up time by climate control . 

However , although there isn't an actual time dilation , I'd like to add for the record , there is an ageing dilation . 

 

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Ned said:

The source of the equation is just math symbols off the internet that I've put together to explain why the frequency of the Caesium shifts . I am aware that isn't the time dilation calculation. However , my equation is the correct physics for the process . 

What's the evidence that supports your speculation?

 

1 hour ago, Ned said:

The correct terms for what science calls a time dilation is a synchronization offset , there is no change of time as demonstrated already with my provided models  . 

Your provided models?

1. You don't have a model

2. It's not time dilation

3. You've demonstrated nothing clearly

1 hour ago, Ned said:

You asked for evidence , the models I provided are evidence and I ask the ''judge'' to allow those as evidence . The equation I provided is also evidence and the fact that the Caesium can alter frequency by climate control is additional evidence and support .

No, evidence would be in the form of experimental results that show the equation is valid. Equations by themselves are not evidence.

The temperature of atoms or ions matters for two specific reasons. Can you tell us what they are?

 

1 hour ago, Ned said:

Consider it this way , science is practically claiming they can slow down or speed up time by climate control . 

However , although there isn't an actual time dilation , I'd like to add for the record , there is an ageing dilation . 

No, the claim isn't that they can slow down time, the claim is that the frequency of the clock is affected, and if you are trying to realize the second, as one does with a cesium frequency standard, you have to account for any frequency changes that move you off of the 9192631770 Hz that is the definition of the second. Temperature not being 0 K is one of those effects. You can calculate the amount of frequency shift, and adjust your frequency assessment so that the clocks remain accurate. 

[Ned]

10 hours ago, swansont said:

What's the evidence that supports your speculation?

 

 

 

No, the claim isn't that they can slow down time, the claim is that the frequency of the clock is affected, and if you are trying to realize the second, as one does with a cesium frequency standard, you have to account for any frequency changes that move you off of the 9192631770 Hz that is the definition of the second. Temperature not being 0 K is one of those effects. You can calculate the amount of frequency shift, and adjust your frequency assessment so that the clocks remain accurate. 

Quote

The official definition of the second was first given by the BIPM at the 13th General Conference on Weights and Measures in 1967 as: "The second is the duration of 9192631770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom." At its 1997 meeting the BIPM added to the previous definition the following specification: "This definition refers to a caesium atom at rest at a temperature of 0 K."^{[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium_standard} 

I do not believe that is correct because the title time dilation itself claims a change of time . Yourself seems to admit that there isn't an actual time dilation , referring to it as a simple change of frequency . You beat me too it by mentioning O K which is proof the constant frequency while at rest is dependent to the constant state the Caesium is kept at . 

You have just supported my math  Δu∝Δf  by admitting ''the claim isn't that they can slow down time, the claim is that the frequency of the clock is affected''. My models support there is no time dilation , they  demonstrate there is simply a sychronisation offset  (the operation or activity of two or more things at the same time or rate.) 

Are you in agreement that as my models show , there is a mechanical timing dilation rather than a time dilation (measure of history) ?

If you disagree then that is contradictory to your statement ''No, the claim isn't that they can slow down time, the claim is that the frequency of the clock is affected'' . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Ned

[swansont]

18 hours ago, Ned said:

I do not believe that is correct because the title time dilation itself claims a change of time . Yourself seems to admit that there isn't an actual time dilation , referring to it as a simple change of frequency . 

Time is the integral of frequency, so if there is a difference in frequency between two clocks (stemming from relativistic effects), the time they measure will be different.

 

18 hours ago, Ned said:

You have just supported my math  Δu∝Δf  by admitting ''the claim isn't that they can slow down time, the claim is that the frequency of the clock is affected''. My models support there is no time dilation , they  demonstrate there is simply a sychronisation offset  (the operation or activity of two or more things at the same time or rate.) 

When will you share this model with us? And the experimental evidence that supports it?

 

18 hours ago, Ned said:

Are you in agreement that as my models show , there is a mechanical timing dilation rather than a time dilation (measure of history) ?

If you disagree then that is contradictory to your statement ''No, the claim isn't that they can slow down time, the claim is that the frequency of the clock is affected'' .  

I haven’t seen a model. You gave an equation which you refuse to explain or derive, and haven’t shown how one would calculate any time dilation.

Like a Nigerian prince scammer, you are promising things but not actually providing them.