Gravity moves at speed of Light

[GeminiinimeG]

Ok I read on the internet somewere that gravity has the same speed as light does. If this is true how come a black hole can suck light right up? I know this people have done lots of research in order for people to believe what they state, but I believe this is impossible and gravity must have a speed wich is greater than the speed of light in order to suck it up in the matter wich is seen through telescopes. Can someone who knows much about this subject explain how this is possible please. I am barely coming out of highschool and havent studied much but science is an easy subject for me and stuff just makes sense so please tell me how this man is right.

 

 

Heres a link to the document

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3232

[Thomas Kirby]

Gravitation is regarded as a static state of a given region of space. It is a change in that state caused by the motion of matter that travels at the speed of light.

[GeminiinimeG]

Ok i did not understand what you just replied with, can you please go into greater detail to explain this to me, it seemed not to answer my question

[jcarlson]

Basically if the sun blinked out of existance, the earth would continue on its orbit until we couldnt see the sun anymore, that is, the 9 minutes or so it takes for the light to stop coming. This is because the change in the fabric of space time that occurs when a mass like the sun is removed occurs at the speed of light, and the spacetime around the sun would not "un-warp" itself until the light from the sun's last moment hit it. However gravity itself is simply the act of an object moving along a straight path through space time, and is therefore instantaneous.

[GeminiinimeG]

like i said, in the link i posted they claimed to have measured the speed of gravity, what I meant is it is possible for gravity to be faster than light and is probably such a great speed that it cant be measured by us because were just not advanced enough or were probably too small to notice such a speed. With the advancements in technology in this near future the answers might come to us. So yeah i guess I was correct then, or at least seem to be correct.

 

By the way I am basing my toughts on evidence that I have read and I dont really care about braking the stupid laws that people came up with in the past. Humans are supposed to evolve and if scientists stoped worrying about breakign the natural laws and started worrying more about breaking em somehow we humans would probably jump forward in technolocal advances pretty quickly.

[timo]

I don´t completely understand why the speed of gravity (what is this to you, btw?) had to be greater than the speed of light in order to trap it in a black hole. Prison walls are very good at keeping people inside that move much faster than the walls.

[5614]

I dont really care about braking the stupid laws that people came up with in the past

What you mean like something can't go faster than light???

 

If so then this is the real answer:

1) Gravity cannot be faster than light

2) Gravity could travel at the speed of light

3) Gravity doesn't need to be faster than light to explain black holes

4) We could measure the speed of gravity quite accurately.

 

But you wanna hear:

1) Scientific rules are changing as we are evolving (crap)

2) Gravity can be faster than light if you want (crap)

3) People who admit they don't fully understand science (you) can tell people how it works e.g. you say: "I meant is it is possible for gravity to be faster than light" and deny proven facts that have been discovered by people several thousand times clever than you, e.g. you say "So yeah i guess I was correct then, or at least seem to be correct." NO YOU DO NOT!

 

Also you say:

"if scientists stoped worrying about breakign the natural laws and started worrying more about breaking em somehow we humans would probably jump forward in technolocal advances pretty quickly."

 

All I can say is before you talk about science try and actually know what you are talking about because you making yourself seem very stupid.

 

Sorry about my atitude in this post, but it seems to be the same attitude you showed in post #5

[Thomas Kirby]

Disclaimer: I am not an expert

 

Ok i did not understand what you just replied with, can you please go into greater detail to explain this to me, it seemed not to answer my question

 

"Static" means pretty much the same thing as "stationary." Gravity doesn't have to move to attract energy or matter. It changes the way that other things move.

 

Changes in gravity move at the speed of light, at least according to current theory, so gravity waves propagate at the speed of light. A gravity wave is a sort of wave that is generated when a mass moves. It takes a very large mass moving suddenly to create a gravity waves that can be detected. This is because gravity is an extremely weak force at any great distance.

 

If a large mass suddenly appeared out of nowhere, its gravity would propagate at the speed of light. We are talking about a hypothetical, non-real-world situation. Eight minutes later its gravitation would be felt as far away from the sun, and so on. Most masses have existed, even if not all in the same place, for billions of years, so their influence is felt for billions of light years, although that influence is extremely minute. Anywhere within that distance, that influence is already there.

[5614]

Disclaimer: I am not an expert

You don't need to be one to know what you are talking about! I'm not an expert either.

 

This is because gravity is an extremely weak force at any great distance.

Gravity is also very weak at short distances. One of the problems with trying to detect a graviton is that gravity has never been observed on a subatomic level.

 

A gravity wave is a sort of wave that is generated when a mass moves.

A mass doesn't need to be moving for there to be a gravitational field around it. I am still relative to the Earth yet the Earth still has a gravitational effect on me. Although if what you said was true you'd then be dealing with the fact that just like you can't have absolute motion you can't have absolute 0 motion, so nothing is truely still, so everything is moving, so there'd be gravity everywhere anyway!

[Thomas Kirby]

You don't need to be one to know what you are talking about! I'm not an expert either.

 

Gravity is also very weak at short distances. One of the problems with trying to detect a graviton is that gravity has never been observed on a subatomic level.

 

A mass doesn't need to be moving for there to be a gravitational field around it. I am still relative to the Earth yet the Earth still has a gravitational effect on me. Although if what you said was true you'd then be dealing with the fact that just like you can't have absolute motion you can't have absolute 0 motion' date=' so nothing is truely still, so everything is moving, so there'd be gravity everywhere anyway![/quote']

 

Gravity wave != (does not equal) gravitational field. A gravity wave is a relatively abrupt change in the intensity of a gravitational field, like a ripple on a still pond. The presence of the mass creates the field. The motion of the mass creates the wave. Most gravity waves change too little over time to notice, but there is a speed of light delay between the Earth's motion and the tidal effect it exerts on the moon and the sun.

[swansont]

The orbital decay of binary pulsars is another bit of evidence that gravity travels at c.

[Kyrisch]

Ok I read on the internet somewere that gravity has the same speed as light does. If this is true how come a black hole can suck light right up? I know this people have done lots of research in order for people to believe what they state' date=' but I believe this is impossible and gravity must have a speed wich is greater than the speed of light in order to suck it up in the matter wich is seen through telescopes. Can someone who knows much about this subject explain how this is possible please. I am barely coming out of highschool and havent studied much but science is an easy subject for me and stuff just makes sense so please tell me how this man is right.[/b']

 

 

Heres a link to the document

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3232

 

Since you don't seem to be able to grasp the scientific view, let me try to explain it to you with a metaphor.

 

Think of gravity as a person that is grabbing you by the ankles and keeping you on this earth. This is his strength (the strength of the graviational field around the earth). The sun and the earth also send "Mr. Gravitys" out into space. They run as far as they can, and they stop when they get tired (The edge of the gravitational field). Now picture a black hole. The "Mr. Gravity" in the black hole is a bodybuilder. His arms are huge! (Stay with me here) When light crosses the event horizon of the black hole, he grabs it and wrestles it into the black hole. He is not faster than light, he is "stronger" than light.

 

Now his speed is how long it takes him to run fom one body exerting a gravitational force on another to the other body. It just so happens that all "Mr. Gravitys" have the same speed as all "Mr. Lights". The Mr. Gravity that lives in the black hole is "stronger" than light, but they both run at the same speed.

 

Remember what I said before? "The sun and the earth also send 'Mr. Gravitys' out into space. They run as far as they can, and they stop when they get tired (The edge of the gravitational field)." Well, it takes 8.3 minutes for one Mr. Gravity to run the distance between the sun and the earth, the same speed it would take one Mr. Light (which the sun also sends out). Since many Mr. Gravitys and Mr. Lights would already be on their way, somewhere between the sun and the earth in space, running at the speed of light, Mr. Gravitys and Mr. Lights would still be reaching the earth even after the sun was gone. They would continue reaching the earth for 8.3 minutes after the sun is gone, and then both light and gravity would stop reaching the earth and we would swing out of orbit.

 

I hope this clears things up.

[5614]

Gravity wave != (does not equal) gravitational field. A gravity wave is a relatively abrupt change in the intensity of a gravitational field, like a ripple on a still pond. The presence of the mass creates the field. The motion of the mass creates the wave. Most gravity waves change too little over time to notice, but there is a speed of light delay between the Earth's motion and the tidal effect it exerts on the moon and the sun.

Gawd, it was too early in the morning, I do know what you said, I just, well, dunno, oops, my bad, sorry, thanks for correcting me!

[GeminiinimeG]

5614 how can you insult my intelligence when you say gravity is very weak at short distances. Gravity gets weaker and weaker the further you get from the object that has a gravitational force, meaning the closer the objecst are the stronger gravity seems to be. And in another messgae some guy said that the current theory states that gravity moves at speed of light, thats exactly that theory and cant be proven by todays technology. Light is the fastest thing known to man and i believe it ant possibly be the fastest. Human being dont know how the whole universe works because were a very small part of it. Please dont ever say I am some kinda idiot when i seem to know more about the subject then you do.

[Kyrisch]

I tried... And I worked so hard on that metaphor, too...

[GeminiinimeG]

Since you don't seem to be able to grasp the scientific view' date=' let me try to explain it to you with a metaphor.

 

Think of gravity as a person that is grabbing you by the ankles and keeping you on this earth. This is his strength (the strength of the graviational field around the earth). The sun and the earth also send "Mr. Gravitys" out into space. They run as far as they can, and they stop when they get tired (The edge of the gravitational field). Now picture a black hole. The "Mr. Gravity" in the black hole is a bodybuilder. His arms are huge! (Stay with me here) When light crosses the event horizon of the black hole, he grabs it and wrestles it into the black hole. He is not faster than light, he is "stronger" than light.

 

Now his [i']speed[/i] is how long it takes him to run fom one body exerting a gravitational force on another to the other body. It just so happens that all "Mr. Gravitys" have the same speed as all "Mr. Lights". The Mr. Gravity that lives in the black hole is "stronger" than light, but they both run at the same speed.

 

Remember what I said before? "The sun and the earth also send 'Mr. Gravitys' out into space. They run as far as they can, and they stop when they get tired (The edge of the gravitational field)." Well, it takes 8.3 minutes for one Mr. Gravity to run the distance between the sun and the earth, the same speed it would take one Mr. Light (which the sun also sends out). Since many Mr. Gravitys and Mr. Lights would already be on their way, somewhere between the sun and the earth in space, running at the speed of light, Mr. Gravitys and Mr. Lights would still be reaching the earth even after the sun was gone. They would continue reaching the earth for 8.3 minutes after the sun is gone, and then both light and gravity would stop reaching the earth and we would swing out of orbit.

 

I hope this clears things up.

 

Ok I am not trying to insult you but your saying exactly what was said in the article. Your metaphor didnt explain anything. If you imagine what you said its still impossible. you Know why

This is because if gravity was like some kinda arm reaching out and pulling, if the sun disapeared then there would be nothing to pull on like this.

 

earth<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sun

earth<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nothing

 

You know that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, how would all the strings stuck to the sun be able to pull the earth when they need the sun to pull back on, you see the gravity would instantaneously stop pulling. One other thing gravity never ends so I dont know why your saying that the gravitational field ends? By the way I am just trying to learn here from some of my peers so dont be insulted by what I say. I am not trying to insult you but I want to show you some theories have nothing behind them and we believe them because a Supposedly smart person feeds them to us.

[5614]

5614 how can you insult my intelligence when you say gravity is very weak at short distances.

err yeah, but, you can't observe gravity on a subatomic scale, whereas you can see the effect of gravity in the case of the solar system, now maybe it is you who can't quite tell that subatomic=small and solar=bigger

 

Gravity gets weaker and weaker the further you get from the object that has a gravitational force, meaning the closer the objecst are the stronger gravity seems to be.

That is correct but doesn't mean that at very small distances that gravity will be very strong, that was my point.

 

And in another messgae some guy said that the current theory states that gravity moves at speed of light, thats exactly that theory and cant be proven by todays technology.

There are many pieces of evidence that gravity travels at c. Swansont was even kind enough to give you one, if you bothered to read the thread.

 

Light is the fastest thing known to man and i believe it ant possibly be the fastest. Human being dont know how the whole universe works because were a very small part of it.

Just because we are small relative to the rest of the universe doesn't mean that we are incorrect when we say that c is the fastest speed possible. The fact that c is the fastest is a fairly certain statement around scientists, so instead of trying to convince others with words, why don't you prove it? Scientists also believe that the laws which apply here on Earth would apply anywhere else in the universe (within reason, like a candle won't burn in a vacum).

 

Please dont ever say I am some kinda idiot when i seem to know more about the subject then you do.

I've never called someone an idiot on this site except for you. Your first post seemed innocent, not the most intelligent "but I believe this is impossible and gravity must have a speed wich is greater than the speed of light in order to suck it up in the matter wich is seen through telescopes." but innocent and this I have no problem with.

 

It was your 3rd post in this thread which really triggered the response. You're saying "it is possible" for something to disobey the laws of physics, it is probably so beyond us that our simple s=d/t equation won't work (uh, no!) and then you say that you are correct, what?!? You then say you don't care about the laws of science, you think they will change and that scientists are stupid sticking to old laws. That's why I disrespect you.

[insane_alien]

right since the gravitons(just using these hypothetically here like the mr gravity's, what a brilliant idea that is) that continue to attract the earth after the sun has dissapeared were emitted before the sun disapeared they have to conserve the momentum they applied to the sun as they left. so they can still attract the earth. the only thing wrong with this is that the sun somehow winks out of existence.

[5614]

you see the gravity would instantaneously stop pulling

Starting from new, only for this post, I will answer you like I'd answer someone else.

 

If the sun randomly disappeared we would continue getting light for the next 8mins. This is because the sun releases light at say 12:00 and then it reaches us at 12:08. So if at 12:01 the sun randomly disappeared the last light from the sun would also leave at 12:01, meaning it would reach us at 12:09.... note that the sun disappears at 12:01 and that we only see it disappear (ie. get the last bit of light) at 12:09.

 

This is exactly what would happen with gravity, as gravity travels at the same speed as the light. The last "bit" of gravity would leave the sun at 12:01 and it is only at 12:09 that the last bit of gravity would reach us, after that we have no more gravity.

[GeminiinimeG]

right since the gravitons(just using these hypothetically here like the mr gravity's, what a brilliant idea that is) that continue to attract the earth after the sun has dissapeared were emitted before[/i'] the sun disapeared they have to conserve the momentum they applied to the sun as they left. so they can still attract the earth. the only thing wrong with this is that the sun somehow winks out of existence.

 

Well your statement makes more sense now, one thing tough, imagine this for a second. The sun disappears, and the earth goes off into space the exact moment. One bad part of the whole thing, we wouldnt notice because were allready going through space arent we. Like I said the gravitons wouldnt have nothing to pull back on

 

Another thing you know that so called dark matter, do you think it is affected by gravity or perhaps it works on something opposite like antigravity.

[GeminiinimeG]

Starting from new' date=' only for this post, I will answer you like I'd answer someone else.

 

If the sun randomly disappeared we would continue getting light for the next 8mins. This is because the sun releases light at say 12:00 and then it reaches us at 12:08. So if at 12:01 the sun randomly disappeared the last light from the sun would also leave at 12:01, meaning it would reach us at 12:09.... note that the sun disappears at 12:01 and that we only see it disappear (ie. get the last bit of light) at 12:09.

 

This is exactly what would happen with gravity, as gravity travels at the same speed as the light. The last "bit" of gravity would leave the sun at 12:01 and it is only at 12:09 that the last bit of gravity would reach us, after that we have no more gravity.[/quote']

 

How do you now that gravity travels at the same speed as light?

[5614]

works on something opposite like antigravity

As far as we are aware there is no such thing as antigravity, but lets not bring that into the thread, it is possible yes, leave it at that. The graviton would be its own antiparticle.

[5614]

The orbital decay of binary pulsars is another bit of evidence that gravity travels at c.

Things such as this. There was another thread with a different proof on SFN, though that was a while back now I'm sure if you searched for it you could find it.

[GeminiinimeG]

err yeah' date=' but, you can't observe gravity on a subatomic scale, whereas you can see the effect of gravity in the case of the solar system, now maybe it is you who can't quite tell that subatomic=small and solar=bigger

 

 

That is correct but doesn't mean that at very small distances that gravity will be very strong, that was my point.

 

 

There are many pieces of evidence that gravity travels at c. Swansont was even kind enough to give you one, if you bothered to read the thread.

 

 

Just because we are small relative to the rest of the universe doesn't mean that we are incorrect when we say that c is the fastest speed possible. The fact that c is the fastest is a fairly certain statement around scientists, so instead of trying to convince others with words, why don't you prove it? Scientists also believe that the laws which apply here on Earth would apply anywhere else in the universe (within reason, like a candle won't burn in a vacum).

 

 

I've never called someone an idiot on this site except for you. Your first post seemed innocent, not the most intelligent "[i']but I believe this is impossible and gravity must have a speed wich is greater than the speed of light in order to suck it up in the matter wich is seen through telescopes[/i]." but innocent and this I have no problem with.

 

It was your 3rd post in this thread which really triggered the response. You're saying "it is possible" for something to disobey the laws of physics, it is probably so beyond us that our simple s=d/t equation won't work (uh, no!) and then you say that you are correct, what?!? You then say you don't care about the laws of science, you think they will change and that scientists are stupid sticking to old laws. That's why I disrespect you.

 

Ok man why are you mad?

You do know that less than a decade ago people tought gravity was instant? now people believe that it has the speed of light, next time your gonna be told it has half the speed of light and your going to believe it? You repeating exactly what pther scientists research has told them???? What you should try and do is stop being a puppent and try thinking for yourself.

[5614]

I aint mad man! I laughed when I saw your post... I just think you are saying crap!

 

People never proved that gravity was instantaneou, they can now prove that it travels at c. Physical proof is normally good enough for me.

 

I'll believe whatever is proved. Like the fact you are talking rubbish and that you don't seem to know too much about the subject at hand nor care about scientific laws, you proved that yourself.

 

[edit]I don't mind showing you why gravity of the sun would effect us for 8mins after the sun disappears, nor giving proof as to why gravity travels at c, but it's just some of the stuff you said is why I replied in the way I did. If you had come here and just asked your question, you can even post your views but the way you're sure you are right, laws of physics are wrong etc. it's not really the right way to go about it if you want me answering you!