Interesting findings that may help with the remodeling of bones through reverse ossification of growth plates

[Findmeahope]

Hi all, 

I posted here a while ago on the topic of 'bone remodeling' specifically in relation to the pelvis. Many here disagreed with the premise to even begin with, others think it's too far off. My initial thought was that bones could be remodeled through cutting bone and carefully placing and removing bits and pieces to create the desired outcome. Cutting bone and replacing parts with stem cell-grown material is invasive to put it simply, and absolutely would require a large recovery time and risk assessment as well as research. 

However, while discussing this with others interested, a research article was found that documents the and I quote: "reappearance of growth plate."

Two young patients in this study were of the age where the growth plates have closed, however, following a break in the ankles, there was a reappearance of the growth plate. Others have speculated that this could be a mixture of hormones that could influence the reappearance of the growth plates; hormones control osteoblasts and osteoclasts, between ossification and resorption. Controlling PTH and Vitamin D can influence presence and activation of osteoblasts and osteoclasts.

Click here for the a summary of the study. And here for the full study paper.

Through controlling of specific hormones, would it be viable to make precise cuts in the bone to lead to the reappearance of the growth plates? If this were to be successful, I imagine this would essentially aid in the changing of the pelvis almost completely, especially if it's a male pelvis to a female pelvis, though I'm not sure whether a female pelvis would or could go narrower through the use of growth plates. This would also help people who desire to be taller without going through the process of breaking the bones and stretching them slowly.

 

 

[Peterkin]

On 10/14/2022 at 10:50 PM, Findmeahope said:

Through controlling of specific hormones, would it be viable to make precise cuts in the bone to lead to the reappearance of the growth plates?

Yes, I see what you mean. It sounds as if this could be a simpler and faster and potentially less painful procedure than those available previously. I imagine you would need four very precise cuts, which is still a lot of surgical exposure - pelvis is a whole lot harder to get at than leg bones. Again, I would have to caution for a balance between body-identity and vanity.   

Another aspect I would be concerned about - though I know it's not everyone's concern - is the amount and kind of experimentation that would be done on animals, probably, in this case, dogs.

[Findmeahope]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:03 AM, Peterkin said:

Yes, I see what you mean. It sounds as if this could be a simpler and faster and potentially less painful procedure than those available previously. I imagine you would need four very precise cuts, which is still a lot of surgical exposure - pelvis is a whole lot harder to get at than leg bones. Again, I would have to caution for a balance between body-identity and vanity.   

Another aspect I would be concerned about - though I know it's not everyone's concern - is the amount and kind of experimentation that would be done on animals, probably, in this case, dogs.

I understand the caution with identity and vanity, however, it is absolutely a fact that sometimes the bone structures in males and females can be really drastic that it would take reopening those growth plates. Not just that, but this could be used to help anyone with any kinds of medical conditions, such as if someone's growth plates are faulty or close prematurely. 

 

When it comes to experimentation on animals, there's ethics that are involved isn't there? You aren't allowed to preform experiments on animals unless it is painless and humane, and if it hurts them, you need to stop? I might be wrong on this. I think though it's pretty straight forward, I can't imagine you'd need to do too much heavy experimenting except for the regulating of hormones to encourage the regeneration of the growth plates.

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

. I think though it's pretty straight forward, I can't imagine you'd need to do too much heavy experimenting except for the regulating of hormones to encourage the regeneration of the growth plates.

You don't know approval agencies! Neither do I know what would be involved in this particular procedure. Well, let's hope you're right anyway.

[Findmeahope]

On 11/18/2022 at 12:46 PM, Peterkin said:

You don't know approval agencies! Neither do I know what would be involved in this particular procedure. Well, let's hope you're right anyway.

That is true... I do have a question though, do you know of any ways I might be able to contact the author of the study? I've tried emailing the university but to no luck, no response 

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

do you know of any ways I might be able to contact the author of the study?

You might try going through the publication. But it's quite understandable if they don't give out personal contact information. Imagine the number the questions, from the well-informed right down to the really, really stupid that might come pouring in. You'd never get any more work done.  Think of all the armed loonies out there, sending death-threats to journalists, scientists, politicians and academics.

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, Peterkin said:

You might try going through the publication. But it's quite understandable if they don't give out personal contact information. Imagine the number the questions, from the well-informed right down to the really, really stupid that might come pouring in. You'd never get any more work done.  Think of all the armed loonies out there, sending death-threats to journalists, scientists, politicians and academics.

Actually all our publications disclose our affiliation and (professional) contact information. I have occasionally answered seemingly honest requests and questions from the public (especially during the pandemic) and/or directed them to relevant health professionals, as time allows. 

I think in the age of social media things might have gotten worse in some hot-button issues and some colleagues have indeed gotten death threats. However, this is more commonly because they were giving interviews and/or were active on social media and not because because of publications, as these are rarely read by folks who bother to send out threats. 

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

I think in the age of social media things might have gotten worse in some hot-button issues and some colleagues have indeed gotten death threats. However, this is more commonly because they were giving interviews and/or were active on social media and not because because of publications, as these are rarely read by folks who bother to send out threats. 

This could potentially be a hot-button issue. Still, you're right; it's probably not the sort of thing those sort of people would read. So if the university isn't answering, it must be for some other reason. 

[Findmeahope]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:14 AM, CharonY said:

Actually all our publications disclose our affiliation and (professional) contact information. I have occasionally answered seemingly honest requests and questions from the public (especially during the pandemic) and/or directed them to relevant health professionals, as time allows. 

I think in the age of social media things might have gotten worse in some hot-button issues and some colleagues have indeed gotten death threats. However, this is more commonly because they were giving interviews and/or were active on social media and not because because of publications, as these are rarely read by folks who bother to send out threats. 

Is there anything else I could possibly do? Should I try another email? I have only sent one which was two months ago.

[CharonY]

Well, authors are often very busy and most are unlikely to answer anything that can be (mis)construed as medical advice of any sorts. Complicated open ended questions are also less likely to be answered. 

[Findmeahope]

On 12/17/2022 at 12:57 AM, CharonY said:

Well, authors are often very busy and most are unlikely to answer anything that can be (mis)construed as medical advice of any sorts. Complicated open ended questions are also less likely to be answered. 

Sorry to bump this thread, but I would like to ask you for your thoughts on the matter, I found this site: https://www.mtfbiologics.org/our-products/detail/pelvic-graft

a company that provides grafts, these also include epiphyseal plates, do you think if this plates were to be transplanted to another person they would still be able to provide growth? If a post puberty bone were to have an epiphyseal plate transplanted back, would the body do what it does usually during puberty, which is removing old bone and making new bone effectively giving the bone structure it’s new shape.

[Peterkin]

6 hours ago, Findmeahope said:

If a post puberty bone were to have an epiphyseal plate transplanted back, would the body do what it does usually during puberty, which is removing old bone and making new bone effectively giving the bone structure it’s new shape.

I think it would do what all bones do after a fracture: regrow and rebuild on the framework it finds. Sometimes a compound fracture is not set properly and when it heals, the limb is shorter and crooked: the framework was the wrong shape. So if you substitute a desirable framework, I expect the new growth to follow that configuration. 

(I'd want to know the company's source of supply)

[Findmeahope]

7 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I think it would do what all bones do after a fracture: regrow and rebuild on the framework it finds. Sometimes a compound fracture is not set properly and when it heals, the limb is shorter and crooked: the framework was the wrong shape. So if you substitute a desirable framework, I expect the new growth to follow that configuration. 

(I'd want to know the company's source of supply)

Oh, so you don’t think it would provide any remodelling the bone itself? Like if a male type pelvis had epiphyseal plates placed in the areas where the previous plates closed, with the right hormone profile surely it would encourage the female trajectory of growth?

Edited January 2, 2023 by Findmeahope

[Peterkin]

9 minutes ago, Findmeahope said:

Like if a male type pelvis had epiphyseal plates placed in the areas where the previous plates closed, with the right hormone profile surely it would encourage the female trajectory of growth

I don't see how. I'm not really up to par on this; it's 40 years or more since I worked with bones - and they were dead. My vague notion is that bone cells are too stupid to respond to hormones. I think you need to give them a pattern. Insert a graft of the right shape. You really ought to be discussing this with an expert.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Peterkin

[mistermack]

From something I read recently, the highest number of bone grafts happening these days is in dental work. When you lose a tooth, the bone that used to surround the root of the tooth tends to lose mass over time. If you later want to insert a dental implant in that empty socket, it can be necessary or better to rebuild that lost bone to provide a strong foundation for the implanted titanium screw. 

They either use your own bone, animal product, or something synthetic to produce new bone. I'm not fully up to date on the details, but here is a link, I'm sure you can find more about the subject once you've read it up : https://www.bupa.co.uk/dental/dental-care/treatments/dental-implants/supporting-treatments/bone-grafts   

[Peterkin]

It's a pretty exciting area of medicine. Too bad I've been out of the game so long!

[Findmeahope]

On 1/3/2023 at 7:04 AM, Peterkin said:

I don't see how. I'm not really up to par on this; it's 40 years or more since I worked with bones - and they were dead. My vague notion is that bone cells are too stupid to respond to hormones. I think you need to give them a pattern. Insert a graft of the right shape. You really ought to be discussing this with an expert.

It's really hard to find experts, I thought I could get some answers here. I have tried contacting a few doctors with no avail. From reading 'Ontogeny of the Pelvis' - it appears that the growth trajectory in which growth plates (specifically the pelvis ones) grow is dependent on the hormone profile. It makes sense to me at least. https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ar.23541 

If anyone here knows of someone I could get hold of I would really appreciate it.

 

On 1/3/2023 at 9:26 AM, mistermack said:

From something I read recently, the highest number of bone grafts happening these days is in dental work. When you lose a tooth, the bone that used to surround the root of the tooth tends to lose mass over time. If you later want to insert a dental implant in that empty socket, it can be necessary or better to rebuild that lost bone to provide a strong foundation for the implanted titanium screw. 

They either use your own bone, animal product, or something synthetic to produce new bone. I'm not fully up to date on the details, but here is a link, I'm sure you can find more about the subject once you've read it up : https://www.bupa.co.uk/dental/dental-care/treatments/dental-implants/supporting-treatments/bone-grafts   

I heard about this too. I hope something comes out of this in the context of the thread. I don't know if it's even much of a stretch considering they do complete replacements of bones in certain situations.