Does climate form soil?

[Ayub Umar]

Is climate a factor in soil formation? Is climate type an indication of soil type?

Seoul and New York have the same type of soil - udepts (inceptisols). Both cities have the same average annual wind speed and atmospheric pressure (10km/h, 1017mbar). New York has an annual rainfall of 1334mm and 63% relative humidity. Seoul has 1487mm of precipitation and air humidity of 72%, 1487/72*63=1301. Almost the same annual rainfall.

[Sensei]

46 minutes ago, Ayub Umar said:

Is climate a factor in soil formation?

In long term - obviously..

47 minutes ago, Ayub Umar said:

Is climate type an indication of soil type?

In long term - obviously..

[Peterkin]

Climate influences the formation of soil. Geography and geology determine what base materials are available - what kind of stone was ground up or sediment has been laid down by glaciers, uphill or in a cleft, etc. Then the prevailing weather - winds, rain, snow, ice - have worked on those materials to grind them coarse of fine and carry them from one place to another. Then the organic component is added by microorganisms, vegetation, insects and animals acting on the soil, vegetation further influences whether soil is bound or mobile, enriched or depleted. Without consulting Google Earth, I'd guess that the rocks and hills up-wind of both cities were of a similar configuration and composition.  I'd also guess that many other cities share similar soil types, because humans have located their settlements in the same type of place for defense, access to food and building material and ease of travel.

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/wa/soils/?cid=nrcs144p2_036333

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

Edited October 15, 2022 by Peterkin

[Sensei]

48 minutes ago, Ayub Umar said:

Seoul and New York have the same type of soil - udepts (inceptisols). Both cities have the same average annual wind speed and atmospheric pressure (10km/h, 1017mbar). New York has an annual rainfall of 1334mm and 63% relative humidity. Seoul has 1487mm of precipitation and air humidity of 72%, 1487/72*63=1301. Almost the same annual rainfall.

Neither Seoul nor New York grounds are used by farmers.. so, what actually want do you to compare?

 

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Sensei said:

Neither Seoul nor New York grounds are used by farmers

I’d also like to see an answer to your question of the OP, but they didn’t specify New York City vs the entire state of New York, and I can guarantee you New York grounds are used by farmers… lots, and lots, and lots of farmers… kinda like Vermont, but bigger.

[Ayub Umar]

12 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Climate influences the formation of soil. Geography and geology determine what base materials are available - what kind of stone was ground up or sediment has been laid down by glaciers, uphill or in a cleft, etc. Then the prevailing weather - winds, rain, snow, ice - have worked on those materials to grind them coarse of fine and carry them from one place to another. Then the organic component is added by microorganisms, vegetation, insects and animals acting on the soil, vegetation further influences whether soil is bound or mobile, enriched or depleted. Without consulting Google Earth, I'd guess that the rocks and hills up-wind of both cities were of a similar configuration and composition.  I'd also guess that many other cities share similar soil types, because humans have located their settlements in the same type of place for defense, access to food and building material and ease of travel.

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/wa/soils/?cid=nrcs144p2_036333

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

I have been to Seoul. I've never been to New York, but I've seen a lot on TV. And the nature in these cities is very similar. You can also compare the cities of Montgomery AL and Richmond VA (both cities have the same type of soil udults ultusols). in both cities average annual wind speed: 10km/h, pressure: 1018mbar. Humidity in Richmond is 66%, precipitation is 1178mm. Montgomery 70%, 1299mm. 1178mm/66%*70%=1249mm. The same amount of precipitation, wind speed, atmospheric pressure, the same type of soil. Unless the average annual temperatures are different: 19°C Montgomery, 15°C Richmond. Apparently the air temperature does not affect soil formation. So far, I have found 3 climatic factors affecting soil formation.

[Peterkin]

6 hours ago, Ayub Umar said:

So far, I have found 3 climatic factors affecting soil formation.

But how do you know? Commonality does not equal causality. Wind direction and speed, and the flow of water, determine where and how far topsoil is carried, but not the chemical composition of that topsoil or whether it's anchored by trees and topography determines how far downhill it gets washed and where it stops. Clear-cut logging on the Appalachian range would certainly have allowed soil to wash down to the plain below, where both Montgomery and Richmond are located. So would the river systems have a similar effect.

https://www.nature.org/en-us/about-us/where-we-work/priority-landscapes/appalachians/
 

 

The weather in England didn't change when they bulldozed the hedgerows, but the soil did!

Quote

 https://www.soilassociation.org/take-action/protect-the-environment/why-are-hedgerows-so-important/ Beyond the benefits they bring to wildlife, hedgerows play an important role on farmland, ensuring soils remain healthy and reducing the impacts of drought and flooding.

 

http://soilphysics.okstate.edu/S257/book/geology/index.html

But those factors only work on the surface; they did not determine the formation of the primordial landscape.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Peterkin

[Sensei]

22 hours ago, Ayub Umar said:

Both cities have the same average annual wind speed and atmospheric pressure

@iNow

13 hours ago, iNow said:

I’d also like to see an answer to your question of the OP, but they didn’t specify New York City vs the entire state of New York,

OP specified, said "both cities".. see above..

13 hours ago, iNow said:

and I can guarantee you New York grounds are used by farmers… lots, and lots, and lots of farmers… kinda like Vermont, but bigger.

Undoubtedly.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Sensei

[TheVat]

I come from the American Midwest, where loess is more.

[sethoflagos]

17 hours ago, Ayub Umar said:

 Apparently the air temperature does not affect soil formation.

Not really true is it?

Quote

Laterite is both a soil and a rock type rich in iron and aluminium and is commonly considered to have formed in hot and wet tropical areas. Nearly all laterites are of rusty-red coloration, because of high iron oxide content. They develop by intensive and prolonged weathering of the underlying parent rock, usually when there are conditions of high temperatures and heavy rainfall with alternate wet and dry periods.

Since almost all soils are the result of weathering processes (among others), and both the rate and nature of that weathering are temperature sensitive (freeze/thaw weathering is another obvious example) then arguably air temperature is a highly significant determining factor.

[iNow]

10 hours ago, Sensei said:

OP specified, said "both cities".. see above.

You are entirely correct sir. Thank you for helping me to see my error 

[Ayub Umar]

19 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Not really true is it?

Since almost all soils are the result of weathering processes (among others), and both the rate and nature of that weathering are temperature sensitive (freeze/thaw weathering is another obvious example) then arguably air temperature is a highly significant determining factor.

Both San Antonio TX and Bismarck ND have the same type of soil - ustolls mollisols. But in San Antonio the average annual air temperature is 21°C, in Bismarck - 6°C. Completely different temperatures but the same soil! But the average annual wind speed and atmospheric pressure are the same (12km/h, 1017mbar). You can see on the map the soil of ustolls from texas to north dakota. So this is proof that air temperature does not affect soil type!

On 10/16/2022 at 6:32 PM, Peterkin said:

But how do you know? Commonality does not equal causality. Wind direction and speed, and the flow of water, determine where and how far topsoil is carried, but not the chemical composition of that topsoil or whether it's anchored by trees and topography determines how far downhill it gets washed and where it stops. Clear-cut logging on the Appalachian range would certainly have allowed soil to wash down to the plain below, where both Montgomery and Richmond are located. So would the river systems have a similar effect.

https://www.nature.org/en-us/about-us/where-we-work/priority-landscapes/appalachians/
 

 

The weather in England didn't change when they bulldozed the hedgerows, but the soil did!

 

http://soilphysics.okstate.edu/S257/book/geology/index.html

But those factors only work on the surface; they did not determine the formation of the primordial landscape.

Then what about Fayetteville AR? Fayetteville is not located near the Appalachians, but has the same type of soil as Richmond and Montgomery!

[iNow]

On 10/17/2022 at 3:44 PM, Ayub Umar said:

So this is proof that air temperature does not affect soil type!

You have an anecdote, barely a data point. Proof, sir, that is not. 

[exchemist]

On 10/17/2022 at 9:44 PM, Ayub Umar said:

Both San Antonio TX and Bismarck ND have the same type of soil - ustolls mollisols. But in San Antonio the average annual air temperature is 21°C, in Bismarck - 6°C. Completely different temperatures but the same soil! But the average annual wind speed and atmospheric pressure are the same (12km/h, 1017mbar). You can see on the map the soil of ustolls from texas to north dakota. So this is proof that air temperature does not affect soil type!

Then what about Fayetteville AR? Fayetteville is not located near the Appalachians, but has the same type of soil as Richmond and Montgomery!

Are you seriously arguing that because the average air temperatures are different, there can't be any effect of air temperature on soil formation? Why consider the average? Why not the annual range, for instance? Or the difference between day and night? Aren't these more likely to affect soil formation and structure, via expansion and contraction, effects on moisture content, freeze/thaw cycles and so forth?   

[sethoflagos]

On 10/17/2022 at 9:44 PM, Ayub Umar said:

But in San Antonio the average annual air temperature is 21°C, in Bismarck - 6°C.

 

Sounds reasonable for San Antonio, but your figure for Bismarck is very wrong. Last time I looked the Dakotas weren't tundra. 

[Ayub Umar]

2 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Sounds reasonable for San Antonio, but your figure for Bismarck is very wrong. Last time I looked the Dakotas weren't tundra. 

+6C°

[sethoflagos]

4 hours ago, Ayub Umar said:

+6C°

That's more like it.

And for a soil type that's pretty much defined by its history of plant root and earthworm activity - ie processes that occur predominantly during the temperate growing season - might it be reasonable to say that the average temperature and precipitation pattern during the growing season are likely to be more significant than the winter temperatures?

If you remove the skewing effect of North Dakota's very cold winters, I think you'll find that the growing season climate of San Antonio and Bismarck are not so very different.

Edited October 20, 2022 by sethoflagos
grammar

[studiot]

On 10/15/2022 at 7:25 PM, Ayub Umar said:

Is climate a factor in soil formation? Is climate type an indication of soil type?

Seoul and New York have the same type of soil - udepts (inceptisols). Both cities have the same average annual wind speed and atmospheric pressure (10km/h, 1017mbar). New York has an annual rainfall of 1334mm and 63% relative humidity. Seoul has 1487mm of precipitation and air humidity of 72%, 1487/72*63=1301. Almost the same annual rainfall.

 

Is this some sort of project you are studying ?

I do not think attempting statistical  data comparisons is the right way to go about it.

You need a model to discuss.

Your model should identify major and minor factors of formation and inparticular classify where climate fits in.

Yes climate is a factor in soil formation, but no by itself climate cannot indicate current soil type.

That is because formation is historic and the climate may heve been different during that time.

So you need to distinguish between historic climate and present day climate.

 

I reckon climate to be a minot factor because no climate regime can create soil types that which do not derive from the parent geology.

For example China Clay is a particular 'soil' and is derived from the weathering of a partuclar form of Granite.
If the underlying rocks ar not made of this granite, they cannot weather to china clay, whatever the climate.

I recommend obtaining, reading and using as a eference,

World Soils by

E M Bridges of the International Soil Reference and Information Centre, Wageningen

Cambridge University Press

It offers suitable models etc for your project.

 

[Peterkin]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:44 PM, Ayub Umar said:

Then what about Fayetteville AR? Fayetteville is not located near the Appalachians, but has the same type of soil as Richmond and Montgomery!

So, probably, has a town in Brazil and another one in China. I simply suggested another factor two places might have in common. I don't propose to do your research; I'm just recommending that you take all of the relevant factors into consideration before concluding that two common factors are the underlying cause of all similarities. 

[studiot]

@Ayub Umar

Whilst  I think you suggestion will do far more harm than good,  it is really good that you are thinking about soil health.

 

The continued reduction of soil health over large swathes of the planet is a hidden danger for us all.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63283986