Willem F Esterhuyse Posted November 4, 2022 Author Posted November 4, 2022 On 11/2/2022 at 6:32 AM, Markus Hanke said: At that point, you can define a value for air temperature - a scalar. At the same time, you can define a value for air pressure at that same point - another scalar. You can further define a quantity to measure air flow there - a vector, since it has magnitude and direction. Or you can define the stress within the air medium at that point - a tensor. Or perhaps you could look at the electromagnetic field there - a differential 2-form. Expand You can do all that because there are particles in the air. In free space one can only have one number for every point. I say this as likely since no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time. One must be able to specify what the field is realized in. If it's in field quanta, were back to taking particles as a given.
John Cuthber Posted November 4, 2022 Posted November 4, 2022 On 11/4/2022 at 7:26 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: You can do all that because there are particles in the air. In free space one can only have one number for every point. Expand The point 1 inch east of the tip of my nose has a set of 3 Cartesian coordinates based on an origin at the corner where the floor meets the door. It also has a set of three polar coordinates, altitude, latitude and longitude. So that point has, in fact, 6 numbers. That's before we look at things like a magnetic or gravitational field (and their first, second and nth derivatives). So you are wrong. You should stop now, because this is a science site and you are not doing science.
swansont Posted November 4, 2022 Posted November 4, 2022 On 11/4/2022 at 7:26 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: In free space one can only have one number for every point. I say this as likely since no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time. Expand What does one have to do with the other? Fields aren't objects.
Willem F Esterhuyse Posted November 4, 2022 Author Posted November 4, 2022 (edited) On 11/4/2022 at 10:53 AM, John Cuthber said: The point 1 inch east of the tip of my nose has a set of 3 Cartesian coordinates based on an origin at the corner where the floor meets the door. Expand How are you going to implement this given that a mind chooses the reference position. It requires magic. I can make space lines with my mind. Edited November 4, 2022 by Willem F Esterhuyse -3
John Cuthber Posted November 4, 2022 Posted November 4, 2022 On 11/4/2022 at 3:46 PM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: How are you going to implement this given that a mind chooses the reference position. Expand Something like this would be the obvious way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_scanning But it hardly matters how I'd do it. The fact remains. The point exists and it has all those numbers associated with it And it would do so even if there was nobody else in the world.
StringJunky Posted November 4, 2022 Posted November 4, 2022 On 11/4/2022 at 3:46 PM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: How are you going to implement this given that a mind chooses the reference position. It requires magic. I can make space lines with my mind. Expand If it can be measured, it's science.
Markus Hanke Posted November 4, 2022 Posted November 4, 2022 On 11/4/2022 at 7:26 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: In free space one can only have one number for every point. Expand In classical vacuum, you have at a minimum two fields defined at each point - the metric tensor field (gravity), and the electromagnetic field. Both of these are rank-2 tensors, so there’s lots more going on than a single number. Note that even at points where the EM field strength is zero, you can still have physical effects resulting from the presence of its underlying potentials (eg Aharanov-Bohm effect). In quantum vacuum, in addition to the above, you’ll also have the full menagerie of all the various quantum fields associated with the standard model, even in the absence of any particles. This matters, because, unlike in the classical case, the energy of the vacuum ground state of these fields is not zero, and you can get various physical effects resulting from this. On 11/4/2022 at 7:26 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: I say this as likely since no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time. Expand This is true only for fermions, but not for bosons. On 11/4/2022 at 7:26 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: One must be able to specify what the field is realized in. Expand No. What matters are the physical effects a field has; again, the Aharanov-Bohm effect is a good example. On 11/4/2022 at 3:46 PM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: How are you going to implement this given that a mind chooses the reference position. Expand The laws of physics do not depend on the choice of reference frame. You can change your coordinate system at any time without affecting any laws (general covariance). Note that this also does not change the number of coordinates required to uniquely identify a point. 1
Ghideon Posted November 4, 2022 Posted November 4, 2022 On 11/4/2022 at 7:26 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: In free space one can only have one number for every point. Expand That seems a very counter intuitive claim from an information perspective. In addition to other arguments here is an example (based on John Cuthbert's comment) Origo in a three dimensional coordinate system is one point identified by 0,0,0 0,0,0 can be represented as a ascii string in binary form, note that this is one number: 0011000000101100001100000010110000110000. Convert the one binary number to decimal, obviously resulting in one number: 206899784752. One number, several numbers or other information is a matter of choosing a suitable encoding. Hope this helps.
Willem F Esterhuyse Posted November 5, 2022 Author Posted November 5, 2022 (edited) On 11/4/2022 at 6:55 PM, Markus Hanke said: The laws of physics do not depend on the choice of reference frame. Expand But you must choose a reference frame in order to compute and predict an observation - then the machine complies. On 11/4/2022 at 5:55 PM, John Cuthber said: Something like this would be the obvious way. Expand I meant theoretically implement. Edited November 5, 2022 by Willem F Esterhuyse
swansont Posted November 5, 2022 Posted November 5, 2022 On 11/5/2022 at 11:18 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: But you must choose a reference frame in order to compute and predict an observation Expand So? What’s “magical” about that?
studiot Posted November 5, 2022 Posted November 5, 2022 On 11/5/2022 at 11:18 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: But you must choose a reference frame in order to compute and predict an observation - then the machine complies. Expand Not always no. For instance you don't need any reference frame to work out and then predict the phases of the Moon.
John Cuthber Posted November 5, 2022 Posted November 5, 2022 On 11/5/2022 at 11:18 AM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: I meant theoretically implement. Expand It is a theoretical implementation. I haven't actually done it.
Willem F Esterhuyse Posted November 7, 2022 Author Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) On 11/5/2022 at 12:19 PM, swansont said: So? What’s “magical” about that? Expand The particle knows what reference frame you chose! If we are to encode the coordinates as numbers of space points, we need something else to encode the commas: time instances. Then the numbers need to be in a code that the computer that runs the universe knows. The numbers must be easily read trough a function: n = bits(x1 , origin As String), where x1 is a vector stating the particle position and "origin" is a string variable. The number n would be of format: sssss...stssssssss...stssssss...st etc. Edited November 7, 2022 by Willem F Esterhuyse
swansont Posted November 7, 2022 Posted November 7, 2022 On 11/7/2022 at 5:10 PM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: The particle knows what reference frame you chose! Expand No, that’s ludicrous. Don’t anthropomorphize nature. She hates that. Besides, you get the same result regardless of the reference frame. Whether or not something happens doesn’t depend on your frame of reference. On 11/7/2022 at 5:10 PM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: If we are to encode the coordinates as numbers of space points, we need something else to encode the commas: time instances. Then the numbers need to be in a code that the computer that runs the universe knows. Expand What is your evidence that there is a computer that runs the universe? Where is it located?
Willem F Esterhuyse Posted November 7, 2022 Author Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) On 11/7/2022 at 6:36 PM, swansont said: What is your evidence that there is a computer that runs the universe? Where is it located? Expand Jut the fact that computation happens, is my evidence. It is located on God's space ship. Edited November 7, 2022 by Willem F Esterhuyse -2
swansont Posted November 7, 2022 Posted November 7, 2022 On 11/7/2022 at 7:38 PM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: Jut the fact that computation happens, is my evidence. It is located on God's space ship. Expand Speculation has to be backed up with evidence. Invoking God is not a rigorous scientific argument.
Ghideon Posted November 7, 2022 Posted November 7, 2022 On 11/7/2022 at 5:10 PM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: If we are to encode the coordinates as numbers of space points, we need something else to encode the commas: time instances. Then the numbers need to be in a code that the computer that runs the universe knows. The numbers must be easily read trough a function: n = bits(x1 , origin As String), where x1 is a vector stating the particle position and "origin" is a string variable. The number n would be of format: sssss...stssssssss...stssssss...st etc. Expand Is this a response in the context of my post above? (I suspect you have misunderstood what encoding is)
Phi for All Posted November 7, 2022 Posted November 7, 2022 On 11/7/2022 at 7:38 PM, Willem F Esterhuyse said: Jut the fact that computation happens, is my evidence. It is located on God's space ship. Expand ! Moderator Note I usually move threads that veer non-mainstream to Speculations, but capital-G God can't go there, so this conversation is over. If this is the kind of reasoning you plan on using in discussions, it's not welcome here. Nobody has that kind of time to waste. 1
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