There are Physical Concepts that is Left Up To Magic

[Willem F Esterhuyse]

On 11/2/2022 at 8:32 AM, Markus Hanke said:

At that point, you can define a value for air temperature - a scalar. At the same time, you can define a value for air pressure at that same point - another scalar. You can further define a quantity to measure air flow there - a vector, since it has magnitude and direction. Or you can define the stress within the air medium at that point - a tensor. Or perhaps you could look at the electromagnetic field there - a differential 2-form.

You can do all that because there are particles in the air. In free space one can only have one number for every point. I say this as likely since no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time.

One must be able to specify what the field is realized in. If it's in field quanta, were back to taking particles as a given.

[John Cuthber]

3 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

You can do all that because there are particles in the air. In free space one can only have one number for every point.

The point 1 inch east of the tip of my nose has a set of 3 Cartesian coordinates based on an origin at the corner where the floor meets the door.
It also has a set of three polar coordinates, altitude, latitude and longitude.
So that point has, in fact, 6 numbers.

That's before we look at things like a magnetic or gravitational field (and their first, second and nth derivatives).

So you are wrong.

You should stop now, because this is a science site and you are not doing science.
 

[swansont]

5 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

In free space one can only have one number for every point. I say this as likely since no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time.

What does one have to do with the other? Fields aren't objects.

[Willem F Esterhuyse]

4 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

The point 1 inch east of the tip of my nose has a set of 3 Cartesian coordinates based on an origin at the corner where the floor meets the door.

How are you going to implement this given that a mind chooses the reference position. It requires magic. I can make space lines with my mind.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Willem F Esterhuyse

[John Cuthber]

2 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

How are you going to implement this given that a mind chooses the reference position.

Something like this would be the obvious way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_scanning

But it hardly matters how I'd do it.

The fact remains.
The point exists and it has all those numbers associated with it 

And it would do so even if there was nobody else in the world.
 

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

How are you going to implement this given that a mind chooses the reference position. It requires magic. I can make space lines with my mind.

If it can be measured, it's science.

[Markus Hanke]

11 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

In free space one can only have one number for every point.

In classical vacuum, you have at a minimum two fields defined at each point - the metric tensor field (gravity), and the electromagnetic field. Both of these are rank-2 tensors, so there’s lots more going on than a single number. Note that even at points where the EM field strength is zero, you can still have physical effects resulting from the presence of its underlying potentials (eg Aharanov-Bohm effect).

In quantum vacuum, in addition to the above, you’ll also have the full menagerie of all the various quantum fields associated with the standard model, even in the absence of any particles. This matters, because, unlike in the classical case,  the energy of the vacuum ground state of these fields is not zero, and you can get various physical effects resulting from this.

11 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

I say this as likely since no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time.

This is true only for fermions, but not for bosons.

11 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

One must be able to specify what the field is realized in.

No. What matters are the physical effects a field has; again, the Aharanov-Bohm effect is a good example.

3 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

How are you going to implement this given that a mind chooses the reference position.

The laws of physics do not depend on the choice of reference frame. You can change your coordinate system at any time without affecting any laws (general covariance). Note that this also does not change the number of coordinates required to uniquely identify a point.

[Ghideon]

12 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

In free space one can only have one number for every point.

That seems a very counter intuitive claim from an information perspective. In addition to other arguments here is an example (based on John Cuthbert's comment)

Origo in a three dimensional coordinate system is one point identified by 0,0,0
0,0,0 can be represented as a ascii string in binary form, note that this is one number: 0011000000101100001100000010110000110000. Convert the one binary number to decimal, obviously resulting in one number: 206899784752. 

One number, several numbers or other information is a matter of choosing a suitable encoding. Hope this helps.

 

[Willem F Esterhuyse]

16 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

The laws of physics do not depend on the choice of reference frame.

But you must choose a reference frame in order to compute and predict an observation - then the machine complies.

17 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Something like this would be the obvious way.

I meant theoretically implement.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Willem F Esterhuyse

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

But you must choose a reference frame in order to compute and predict an observation

So? What’s “magical” about that?

[studiot]

1 hour ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

But you must choose a reference frame in order to compute and predict an observation - then the machine complies.

Not always no.

 

For instance you don't need any reference frame to work out and then predict the phases of the Moon.

[John Cuthber]

11 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

I meant theoretically implement.

It is a theoretical implementation.
I haven't actually done it.
 

[Willem F Esterhuyse]

On 11/5/2022 at 2:19 PM, swansont said:

So? What’s “magical” about that?

The particle knows what reference frame you chose!

If we are to encode the coordinates as numbers of space points, we need something else to encode the commas: time instances. Then the numbers need to be in a code that the computer that runs the universe knows. The numbers must be easily read trough a function: n = bits(x₁ , origin As String), where x₁ is a vector stating the particle position and "origin" is a string variable.

The number n would be of format: sssss...stssssssss...stssssss...st etc.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Willem F Esterhuyse

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

The particle knows what reference frame you chose!

No, that’s ludicrous. Don’t anthropomorphize nature. She hates that. 

Besides, you get the same result regardless of the reference frame. Whether or not something happens doesn’t depend on your frame of reference.

1 hour ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

If we are to encode the coordinates as numbers of space points, we need something else to encode the commas: time instances. Then the numbers need to be in a code that the computer that runs the universe knows.

What is your evidence that there is a computer that runs the universe? Where is it located? 

 

 

[Willem F Esterhuyse]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

What is your evidence that there is a computer that runs the universe? Where is it located? 

Jut the fact that computation happens, is my evidence. It is located on God's space ship.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Willem F Esterhuyse

[swansont]

35 minutes ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

Jut the fact that computation happens, is my evidence. It is located on God's space ship.

Speculation has to be backed up with evidence. Invoking God is not a rigorous scientific argument.

 

[Ghideon]

3 hours ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

If we are to encode the coordinates as numbers of space points, we need something else to encode the commas: time instances. Then the numbers need to be in a code that the computer that runs the universe knows. The numbers must be easily read trough a function: n = bits(x₁ , origin As String), where x₁ is a vector stating the particle position and "origin" is a string variable.

The number n would be of format: sssss...stssssssss...stssssss...st etc.

Is this a response in the context of my post above? 

(I suspect you have misunderstood what encoding is)

 

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Willem F Esterhuyse said:

Jut the fact that computation happens, is my evidence. It is located on God's space ship.

!

Moderator Note

I usually move threads that veer non-mainstream to Speculations, but capital-G God can't go there, so this conversation is over. If this is the kind of reasoning you plan on using in discussions, it's not welcome here. Nobody has that kind of time to waste.