Putin has attacked Poland?

[Moontanman]

Reports are coming out that Russian missiles have landed in Poland and killed at least two people. Is this enough to allow attacks on Russian soil? Should retaliation be swift or should we hump up and take this as Ukraine has done?   

[Sensei]

Quote

Putin has attacked Poland?

Unintentionally.

It was 3 kilometers from the border line.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Sensei

[DimaMazin]

12 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Reports are coming out that Russian missiles have landed in Poland and killed at least two people. Is this enough to allow attacks on Russian soil? Should retaliation be swift or should we hump up and take this as Ukraine has done?   

Ukraine has no missiles to attack far airfields. It is work of Biden.

NATO is attacked by two missiles. Zero are downed of two. Ukraine shot down 73 missiles out of about 100. Who hump up?

[Moontanman]

9 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Unintentionally.

It was 3 kilometers from the border line.

Unintentionally? Has Russia announced this? If the USA "accidentally" attacked north korea who would believe it? 

[Sensei]

39 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Unintentionally? Has Russia announced this?

I am announcing this. Who would intentionally waste a precious rocket on a village farm and farm vehicles..

Edited November 15, 2022 by Sensei

[DimaMazin]

18 minutes ago, Sensei said:

I am announcing this. Who would intentionally waste a precious rocket on a village farm..

To check work of Patriot.

Edited November 15, 2022 by DimaMazin

[Endy0816]

7 minutes ago, DimaMazin said:

To check work of Petriot.

Do you mean the Patriot Missile Systems they're getting/have in case the war spills over into Poland?

 

 

[DimaMazin]

9 hours ago, Endy0816 said:

Do you mean the Patriot Missile Systems they're getting/have in case the war spills over into Poland?

 

 

Let's check your math. Ukraine  missed  only 1/4 part of missiles of 90 then how many missiles flew in Poland?

Edited November 16, 2022 by DimaMazin

[exchemist]

12 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Reports are coming out that Russian missiles have landed in Poland and killed at least two people. Is this enough to allow attacks on Russian soil? Should retaliation be swift or should we hump up and take this as Ukraine has done?   

Different picture this morning. Seems the trajectory puts it in doubt that the missiles came from Russia, though they may be Russian-made. Could be Ukrainian missiles, attempting to shoot down the Russian ones, that went off course. 

Even if they did originate from Russia, it is very unlikely this would be deliberate escalation. Far more probable it was guidance error or something. Everyone should keep calm. 

[Sensei]

Without the attack on Ukraine, there would not have been this (and thousands of other) tragic accidents and senseless deaths.. 100% V.P. responsibility.

3 hours ago, exchemist said:

Seems the trajectory puts it in doubt that the missiles came from Russia, [...]

Even if they did originate from Russia, [...]

V.P. soldiers are also attacking from Belarus, Transnistria, Crimea and warships at sea.

[geordief]

42 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Without the attack on Ukraine, there would not have been this (and thousands of other) tragic accidents and senseless deaths.. 100% V.P. responsibility.

V.P. soldiers are also attacking from Belarus, Transnistria, Crimea and warships at sea.

Quite possibly  they are hoping (even aiming) for Ukraine's defences to land in a Nato country.

Not much anyone can do about that since they(Russia) should not be sending missiles in the first place.

 

As a one off (or very infrequent) event I expect Poland will "suck it up"  or perhaps seek compensation from Russia or Belarus.

[Endy0816]

6 hours ago, DimaMazin said:

Let's check your math. Ukraine  missed  only 1/4 part of missiles of 90 then how many missiles flew in Poland?

What math? What are you talking about?

Russia, Putin really, just needs to end this madness. He's helping to create what he claimed to fear.

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Without the attack on Ukraine, there would not have been this (and thousands of other) tragic accidents and senseless deaths.. 100% V.P. responsibility.

V.P. soldiers are also attacking from Belarus, Transnistria, Crimea and warships at sea.

What has that to do with the origin of these two missiles?  

[Moontanman]

17 hours ago, Sensei said:

I am announcing this. Who would intentionally waste a precious rocket on a village farm and farm vehicles..

Russia has denied having anything to do with it, not exactly a ringing endorsement of Russia's good intentions.   

I see it like this, Russia is being handled with kid gloves to the point of ham stringing the Ukraine's defence of its own territory. Ukraine is being told not to attack Russia on Russian soil yet Russia remains the aggressor on a small country on its border. Allowing a missile to land on Poland is meant to test the resolve of NATO. If this is not true then why does Russia deny any wrongdoing? If Russia really respected NATO they should be rushing in to apologize and try to make things right. 

Russia is being allowed to attack a sovereign state with no danger of being attacked in return. Russia has nukes so it can be allowed to do whatever it wants to smaller weaker countries. Reminds me of the appeasement tactics used in WW2 to try and calm Germany. 

If the tables were turned and Russia decided it wanted Alaska back and invaded Alaska would the US limit it's defense to only confronting Russia on US soil? 

Yes Russia has Nukes, so does NATO, a nuclear attack on anyone would put Russia in the same position as everyone else. Russia has no magical power to stop a nuclear attack so they are just as vulnerable as everyone else. Russia has the same need to avoid using nukes as NATO does, MAD was and is still a strong deterrent to using Nukes. The fact that Russia has nukes should not be reason to let them slowly snap up all territories that do not have Nukes.  

Ukraine should, at the very least, be attacking military targets in Russia. Any threatened use of nukes should be met with the reality of nukes being aimed at russia instead of this fear of Russian nukes! They are just as vulnerable as any other country and being able to use the treat of nukes to conquer countries with no nukes just leads to escalation as surely as the use of tactical nukes would. 

[MigL]

I would not rule out an errant Ukrainian S-300, but it would have to be nearly 180^o off course to hit areas of Poland. Russia fired more than 100 missiles, also S-300, yesterday, mostly targetting power generation infrastructure. The S-300 is not very modern to begin with, and as most have been 're-commissioned' with washing machine parts, I don't imagine they are very reliable. I still believe it originated from one of the Russian firing positions, until evidence proves otherwise.

This might give NATO the excuse needed to establish a 'no-fly' zone over areas of western Ukraine that border NATO countries, so as to prevent further incidents.
Just as Russia needs to protect itself from those Nazi Ukrainians by invading them, so should NATO be able to protect itself from the Russian 'special operation'

[Moontanman]

Evidently... I was wrong, this was an accident, Ukraine self defense missile went astray and landed on Polish soil... I jumped the gun.  

[Janus]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I would not rule out an errant Ukrainian S-300, but it would have to be nearly 180^o off course to hit areas of Poland. Russia fired more than 100 missiles, also S-300, yesterday, mostly targetting power generation infrastructure. The S-300 is not very modern to begin with, and as most have been 're-commissioned' with washing machine parts, I don't imagine they are very reliable. I still believe it originated from one of the Russian firing positions, until evidence proves otherwise.

This might give NATO the excuse needed to establish a 'no-fly' zone over areas of western Ukraine that border NATO countries, so as to prevent further incidents.
Just as Russia needs to protect itself from those Nazi Ukrainians by invading them, so should NATO be able to protect itself from the Russian 'special operation'

For the very reason that it gives NATO an reason to increase air presence in the region is why I have my doubts as to this being Russia.  They are having trouble enough with Ukraine, why would they take an action that would only make things worse for them?

[MigL]

By all accounts it seems to have been Ukrainian AD system that went off course.

The argument could be made for giving Ukraine mor emodern AD, like the Patriot or ( Israeli ) Iron Dome AD systems, so similar incidents are not repeated.

[Moontanman]

While I was wrong about the missile attack my point about acting as though Russia must be given what they want "appeasement" was and is a bad strategy. 

[iNow]

37 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

acting as though Russia must be given what they want "appeasement"

Here's where I'd focus my primary challenge of your point. Just because we're not sending in tanks, troops, and missiles doesn't equate to us mandating appeasement or that Russia get anything they want.

I'm also not advocating that enough is currently being done, but steps are being taken to choke them economically and make it painful for them to continue on this path. It's just that they're also being propped up by counter measures and funds from the Saudies, Iranians, and related others which blunt the pushes being made from the West. 

[TheVat]

China buying fossil fuel from Russia at a record-setting pace - there is the mother of all blunters.

 

[Sensei]

15 minutes ago, TheVat said:

China buying fossil fuel from Russia at a record-setting pace - there is the mother of all blunters.

https://www.reuters.com/business/russian-crude-is-more-reliant-india-china-signs-peak-russell-2022-08-09/

[StringJunky]

It's only delaying the inevitable public unrest in Russia. Europe and Ukraine public are fully aware of the situation. The loyal Russian public seem to be slowly seeing through the cracks. The ultimate game seems to be one of mutual attrition. 

[iNow]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

public unrest in Russia

Agreed, and this causes me to wonder if a normally rational calculating Putin will become more likely to take more extreme steps... much like a wild animal backed into a corner. Time will tell.

[StringJunky]

24 minutes ago, iNow said:

Agreed, and this causes me to wonder if a normally rational calculating Putin will become more likely to take more extreme steps... much like a wild animal backed into a corner. Time will tell.

As bad as he is, I think he needs to be corralled away from those options by not forcing him to make those choices. We aren't going to do what we did to Saddam and Gaddafi... look where that led. When it looks like he's irrevocably stuck we need to give him options to save some face. The ultimate  judgement and any punishment, whatever form that might take, needs to be by his own. We need to know when to stop being hawkish, I think.

Edited November 18, 2022 by StringJunky