What would be the most important thing than humans should try to achieve in priority in your opinion ?

[iNow]

Middle ground is all well and good, so long as one side isn’t floating above an active volcano and that “middle” isn’t laden with hot flowing lava. 

Mr. Overton seems unable to close any windows and can only open new ones apparently. 

[Phi for All]

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

It is a bit scary how much one extreme band on the political spectrum seems to take every concept of social progress and infuse it with pejorative meaning.

I think that's simply how folks who identify as a flavor of Republican are being targeted. Extreme wealth has SO much data on what people like and don't like, and they use that information to achieve whatever their goals are, applying what works on various parts of the population. The white middle class is being told that minorities are jeopardizing the path to wealth, the working class hears that immigrants get better jobs, and the minorities are threatened with jail if they rock the boat. Progressives hear about what we should be doing, Liberals are usually asked to put themselves in someone else's shoes, Conservatives are usually told something dire is about to happen, and Libertarians get fed a daily diet of big-government overreach. Socialism and Communism are misrepresented then written off as historically failed economic structures, so Capitalism is the only solution most of these folks can imagine.

We're all being manipulated to isolate from those who're being similarly manipulated so we don't share stories and realize the "boat" being described in all these stories is the same goddamned boat. Most of the information folks get is from entertainment sources, like FOX News and Facebook. The tone these outlets set is propaganda at its finest, and goes a LONG way to ensure that money is more important than votes or majorities or People's will. I wonder if the US has ever had a real democracy like our constitution describes, one where the idea was to raise up the People so their prosperity could gush upwards to everyone, rather than trickle down from a few?

[JustJoe]

On 11/27/2022 at 12:25 AM, raphaelh42 said:

Hello

In your opinion, what is the most important thing that the humans should work together to try to achieve ?

Is there a list/poll answering this somewhere ?

IMO I think about being able to create artificial brains to upload the minds of biological ones into them, to have more time/less weaknesses to try to understand how the universe works.

I also think about creating a website to suggest and vote for rules to apply to communities/countries/world

The list is extensive because humans tend to disagree most of the time on most things . 

In an ideal world , there wouldn't be any independent countries or nationalities . The world would correctly be viewed as being one place . 

The world wouldn't need armies , instead they'd just have world policing . 

This is probably impossible to acheive though because world rulers listen to feelings rather than common sense . 

 

 

[Intoscience]

On 12/9/2022 at 1:36 PM, dimreepr said:

You don't seem to understand the difference between an excuse and a reason, what you define as a genuine excuse is what I define as a reason

If your reason is that you can't be bothered then that is an excuse for being lazy. 

On 12/9/2022 at 1:36 PM, dimreepr said:

I'm very lazy, if I can get away with not doing something I will, it's not an excuse it's the reason I chose not to do a thing, that you think I should do

Its not about what i think you should do its about what is the most logical or right thing to do for a whole host of reasons. The main one being your own personal state of mind.

"get away with doing something" or avoid doing something that you know needs to be done? There is a difference. 

On 12/9/2022 at 1:36 PM, dimreepr said:

Sure, if you live next door and my action results in your house being infested by rats, then you have a reason to be angry and judgmental; but if you don't, then it's just an excuse to bitch about something you don't like

I've got no problem with this people can chose to do what they want so long as it it does not cause other people suffering or harm. 

I ain't "bitchin" I'm pointing out that people complaining about something that they can fix themselves are lazy.

On 12/9/2022 at 7:40 PM, Phi for All said:

Ah, so you're against corruption and abuse, and somebody somewhere tied the those two things together with "woke culture" in your mind (and a LOT of other people's minds). You now view attempts to correct the inequalities in the system as suspect. You have made the decision about being "woke" that many far-right personalities wanted you to make. And don't kid yourself, people like DeSantis represent the extreme right (the ones you say you're opposed to) in this country, people who don't give af about what minorities continue to experience in a system slanted against them. 

Yeah pretty much.

The current wave of extreme "wokeness" (at least round my parts) is doing exactly the opposite to what it's supposed to be doing. Its creating a divide and confusion, aggression and so on... amongst people. 

The basic principles behind it have been taken too far to the extreme by many and made it a ridiculous situation. The genuine activists who's intents and principles are morally sound have been in many cases overwhelmed by the extremists who use woke for their own destructive agenda, to drive an idealism that is biased and discriminate. Diversity and equality is about balance between all, not loaded to one way or another just because of past atrocities. No voice should speak louder than another, all people should be held accountable and all people should be treated equally. The current woke culture around my parts is driving a bias towards certain groups being discriminated against.  

It seems that I will be out of my depth in this conversation since its going to be half a dozen against one and I just cannot keep up with the replies. 

[Moontanman]

35 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

 

The current wave of extreme "wokeness" (at least round my parts) is doing exactly the opposite to what it's supposed to be doing. Its creating a divide and confusion, aggression and so on... amongst people. 

The basic principles behind it have been taken too far to the extreme by many and made it a ridiculous situation. The genuine activists who's intents and principles are morally sound have been in many cases overwhelmed by the extremists who use woke for their own destructive agenda, to drive an idealism that is biased and discriminate. Diversity and equality is about balance between all, not loaded to one way or another just because of past atrocities. No voice should speak louder than another, all people should be held accountable and all people should be treated equally. The current woke culture around my parts is driving a bias towards certain groups being discriminated against.  

It seems that I will be out of my depth in this conversation since its going to be half a dozen against one and I just cannot keep up with the replies. 

The idea of "wokeness" has been distorted by conservative media to mean almost anything other than what it really means. This is understandable due to the conservative political agenda being mostly fear mongering and projection. 

Much like ANTIFA being labeled as some sort of organised terrorist group when all it really means is that a person is against Fascism. One more thing that conservative media has distorted into a bad thing but if you step back and think... How could being against fascism be a bad thing unless you were supportive of fascism? 

Sadly politics has degraded into you have to agree with me or you're anti american or or a groomer or some other bullshit that the media wants you to believe about the other side.  Both sides use the idea of painting the other as extremists when in reality we all have far more in common than we think. 

Things like gay marriage or trans rights, or religion vs science are being used to divide and conquer us all. I often wonder what happened to minding our own business or defending those who are different. People need to remember that if something can happen to the other person it can also happen to you. Being smug because you aren't one of the others is a path to having your own rights trampled. 

Both sides seem to be engaged in a war of lies, deception, and fear against the "other" forgetting we are all the other to someone else. 

[Intoscience]

25 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

The idea of "wokeness" has been distorted by conservative media to mean almost anything other than what it really means. This is understandable due to the conservative political agenda being mostly fear mongering and projection. 

Much like ANTIFA being labeled as some sort of organised terrorist group when all it really means is that a person is against Fascism. One more thing that conservative media has distorted into a bad thing but if you step back and think... How could being against fascism be a bad thing unless you were supportive of fascism? 

Sadly politics has degraded into you have to agree with me or you're anti american or or a groomer or some other bullshit that the media wants you to believe about the other side.  Both sides use the idea of painting the other as extremists when in reality we all have far more in common than we think. 

Things like gay marriage or trans rights, or religion vs science are being used to divide and conquer us all. I often wonder what happened to minding our own business or defending those who are different. People need to remember that if something can happen to the other person it can also happen to you. Being smug because you aren't one of the others is a path to having your own rights trampled. 

Both sides seem to be engaged in a war of lies, deception, and fear against the "other" forgetting we are all the other to someone else. 

Fair points and I guess you are correct.

"Both sides seem to be engaged in a war of lies, deception, and fear against the "other" forgetting we are all the other to someone else"

I will admit, I certainly get caught up in some of the lies and deceit, mostly unawares.  

Edited December 12, 2022 by Intoscience

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

If your reason is that you can't be bothered then that is an excuse for being lazy. 

Its not about what i think you should do its about what is the most logical or right thing to do for a whole host of reasons. The main one being your own personal state of mind.

"get away with doing something" or avoid doing something that you know needs to be done? There is a difference. 

A lot of people can't imagine a role for lazy people in society, but they are many and varied; one of which is, it's gives people a lot of time to think, some of whom can do so while recognising the human condition and are educated well enough to think about it critically and while they're sat on there arse, with access to the internet, can challenge the thinking/biases' of all the hard working people, and with such a large audience???

Not every Idea, from a lazy git, is worthwhile; but with enough of us, one or two is worth listening to, and if one or two of us is challenging enough to change the mind of a hard working person or two; they can take it from there... 😉 🙏

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

If your reason is that you can't be bothered then that is an excuse for being lazy. 

If that's my reason for being lazy, how is it an excuse?

An excuse would be, I can't do that because my leg hurts.

Edited December 12, 2022 by dimreepr

[Intoscience]

55 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

A lot of people can't imagine a role for lazy people in society, but they are many and varied; one of which is, it's gives people a lot of time to think, some of whom can do so while recognising the human condition and are educated well enough to think about it critically and while they're sat on there arse, with access to the internet, can challenge the thinking/biases' of all the hard working people, and with such a large audience???

Not every Idea, from a lazy git, is worthwhile; but with enough of us, one or two is worth listening to, and if one or two of us is challenging enough to change the mind of a hard working person or two; they can take it from there... 😉 🙏

Well that's an easy argument to address since you have answered it in the description already. Just cause you are sitting on your arse not doing anything physical doesn't necessarily mean you are being lazy. Deep thinking is not being lazy, chilling out to re-energise is not being lazy.

Being lazy is not doing something that needs to be done for no other reason than you can't be bothered. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Intoscience
spelling

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Well that's an easy argument to address since you have answered it in the description already. Just cause you are sitting on your arse not doing anything physical doesn't necessarily mean you are being lazy. Deep thinking is not being lazy, chilling out to re-energise is not being lazy.

Being lazy is not doing something that needs to be done for no other reason than you can't be bothered. 

There's a reason thinking is called reasoning, if I can't be bothered to feed myself I can't be around to think, for myself... 🧐

[TheVat]

9 hours ago, Moontanman said:

The idea of "wokeness" has been distorted by conservative media to mean almost anything other than what it really means. This is understandable due to the conservative political agenda being mostly fear mongering and projection. 

Much like ANTIFA being labeled as some sort of organised terrorist group when all it really means is that a person is against Fascism. One more thing that conservative media has distorted into a bad thing but if you step back and think... How could being against fascism be a bad thing unless you were supportive of fascism? 

Yes, and plus one to the whole post.  I see this problem as part of a culture war, where people move away from conversations that are meant to find out what others are thinking (and how they got there) to agenda-driven conversations where the parties will comb over everything the other person says with a fine-toothed comb in hopes of finding something that could be spun as offensive.  It's what partisans often do to politicians ("Hey, Hillary called us all deplorable!") and now it's become the tactic in more mundane encounters between ordinary people.  

The Antifa example you gave is a good one.  Another is Social Justice Warrior.  How could fighting for social justice be anything but good and desirable?  So the term is twisted to be sarcastic, as if sarcasm is all you need to make a case.  

The Left sometimes will mock any use of the term "small government," closing off reasoned discussion of the concept.  The Right will, in a similar vein, attack "socialism," mocking any top-down economic policy in advance by equating it with Stalinism or Nazis.  

A recent case regarding the question, "Where are you from?" struck me as one where the criticism of the questioner is often predicated on the assumption that they must be racist.  No further examination of context or motivation needed.  Guilty.  I would heartily agree that the conversation between the Royal Household member (age 83) and a Black woman, recently recounted on BBC, revealed a rather rude and toxic cross-examination that was deservedly condemned.  But not EVERYONE who has ever asked this question is being racist and rude.  Many people in many places, where newcomers are prevalent, are simply taking a friendly interest in someone arrived from a different place and culture, their words meaning nothing beyond that.  It was until recently a common question in many US university towns, because we have so many foreign students that come from all over the world and who enjoy talking about their adventures.  Not everyone does, of course, and I have rarely seen the question followed up in a pushy way.  Now, it's verboten.  

[Intoscience]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

There's a reason thinking is called reasoning, if I can't be bothered to feed myself I can't be around to think, for myself... 🧐

If you want to survive you will be bothered to feed yourself, if not then you may have a different agenda, I guess. 

So if someone chooses not to act towards something that cannot be ignored and has no valid reason to do so, other than they "can't be bothered" , then what term would you use to describe this? 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Intoscience
spelling

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

"Where are you from?" struck me as one where the criticism of the questioner is often predicated on the assumption that they must be racist.  No further examination of context or motivation needed. 

Being on the receiving end of this question a fair bit, I think the issue is not the question "Where are you from?" 

It is generally only an issue if the follow-up is "no, where are you really from".

[Arete]

On 12/12/2022 at 7:08 PM, Intoscience said:

The current wave of extreme "wokeness" (at least round my parts) is doing exactly the opposite to what it's supposed to be doing. Its creating a divide and confusion, aggression and so on... amongst people. 

This is still too vague be meaningful. What specific attributes are you talking about? I personally mentioned calling for the demotion/firing of prominent, privileged academics over rather innocuous social media posts. Are you suggesting something else? What exactly is toxic? 

On 12/12/2022 at 7:08 PM, Intoscience said:

No voice should speak louder than another, all people should be held accountable and all people should be treated equally.

This is getting close to problematic. Currently, privileged voices speak louder than others, which means they need to be quieter in order for traditionally marginalized voices to share the (figurative and literal) space. 

I, myself am a white, 40 year old man. When I walk into my lecture theatre, people stop talking and wait for me to speak without me doing anything. Cashiers call me "sir" and trust I didn't shoplift. Highway patrol banter with me before giving me a fix it ticket after I get caught doing 25 over the limit. I get plenty of time to speak and I'm used to being listened to and respected.  

It was hard for me to learn that, especially in conversations about equity, diversity and inclusion it is not my turn to speak. I can easily dominate the room and make people pay attention to me, and I can suck it away from other people in the room - easily, without trying, which is why it's a hard thing to learn. But it is time for me to shut up and listen, pass the conch to someone else and try to see the world through a different lens. 

If you come from a position of privilege and you think that giving up that privilege for an equal playing field is one of the biggest problems facing mankind, you, my dude, are part of the reason we need wokeness. 

[dimreepr]

17 hours ago, Intoscience said:

If you want to survive you will be bothered to feed yourself, if not then you may have a different agenda, I guess. 

So if someone chooses not to act towards something that cannot be ignored and has no valid reason to do so, other than they "can't be bothered" , then what term would you use to describe this? 

Content with what I have. (ignoring the strawman)

I can't force you to learn, if you can't be bothered to listen, any more than you can force your son to work harder than he is willing to work.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by dimreepr

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, Arete said:

If you come from a position of privilege and you think that giving up that privilege for an equal playing field is one of the biggest problems facing mankind, you, my dude, are part of the reason we need wokeness. 

That whole post comes across as you being rather full of yourself. But the bit that I've quoted, especially so. You might prefer wokeness. But what WE NEED is up to the individual. 

[Phi for All]

4 minutes ago, mistermack said:

That whole post comes across as you being rather full of yourself. But the bit that I've quoted, especially so. You might prefer wokeness. But what WE NEED is up to the individual. 

This post comes across as you being an privileged, ignorant American redneck (I know you're not American) who doesn't understand the conversation they find themselves in. You claim to know what the individual needs, yet deny the most basic treatment of those needs. The privilege has you intellectually tied in knots, imo.

[mistermack]

1 minute ago, Phi for All said:

You claim to know what the individual needs,

Do you have a reference for that ? 

[Phi for All]

Just now, mistermack said:

Do you have a reference for that ? 

12 minutes ago, mistermack said:

You might prefer wokeness. But what WE NEED is up to the individual. 

At the most basic level, we know we're all different, so doesn't an individual human need to know another human can't overshadow them simply based on those differences?

[mistermack]

You can't have a need without a purpose. I don't claim to speak for others as you do. In the US, people vote for others to overshadow them. And worship the thoughts of others, who are dead but wrote a constitution. And millions crave to be overshadowed by a sky being and it's son who might or might not have existed 2,000 years ago. So your 'need not to be overshadowed' hypothesis doesn't stand up to examination. For many humans, that's exactly what they want. 

[Arete]

5 hours ago, mistermack said:

That whole post comes across as you being rather full of yourself. But the bit that I've quoted, especially so. You might prefer wokeness. But what WE NEED is up to the individual. 

Systemic bias generates negative healthcare outcomes for racial minorities. 

Systemic bias in the justice system means that punishment is unequally applied to differentiated racial/ethnic groups.

Systemic bias limits the ability of racial minorities to be approved for a mortgage. 

Systemic racism limits the ability of individuals from racial minorities to participate in higher education.

etc and so on. 

As previously defined by Ron DeSantis' lawyer, wokeness is the recognition of the existence of systemic bias. If the laws/constitution/values of a nation predicate that all people are treated equally, then systemic biases (and therefore wokeness) are a collective problem, rather than individual problems - being systemic and all.    

[Phi for All]

7 hours ago, mistermack said:

I don't claim to speak for others as you do.

That's a lie AND a strawman.

I'm not speaking for others, I'm trying to show you there are some universal individual needs, and they probably start with some form of "nobody is inherently better than anybody else". When you awake to that fact, you can more easily see how the system favors some over others by design, which seems to be antithetical to what YOU claimed we need. How can an individual's needs be up to the them if the system is biased against them?

As for the rest of your post, it seems you're saying that people affected by the bias in the system deserve what they get, and often crave having their individual rights taken from them. It's a strange argument in a thread about things we should try to achieve.

 

[Intoscience]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:36 PM, Arete said:

If you come from a position of privilege and you think that giving up that privilege for an equal playing field is one of the biggest problems facing mankind, you, my dude, are part of the reason we need wokeness

What makes you assume I'm privileged?

I have no problem with giving up any privilege if that means sharing with people less fortunate. The problem starts when those less privileged are empowered with extra privileges more than anyone else as compensation for the lack of previously. It just then becomes a vicious circle, where's the equality in that? 

Just to be clear before I get accused of being something else. I'am a white male (possibly privileged) my partner is a black female, my kids are mixed race. I'm more than aware of prejudices, especially racial.  

On 12/13/2022 at 12:41 PM, dimreepr said:

I can't force you to learn, if you can't be bothered to listen, any more than you can force your son to work harder than he is willing to work

I haven't forced anyone to do anything, nor would I try.

My son complains about something only he has the power to change.

Go figure

[Moontanman]

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I have no problem with giving up any privilege if that means sharing with people less fortunate. The problem starts when those less privileged are empowered with extra privileges more than anyone else as compensation for the lack of previously. It just then becomes a vicious circle, where's the equality in that? 

Can you elaborate? What extra privileges are the less privileged being empowered with?  

[Phi for All]

57 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Can you elaborate? What extra privileges are the less privileged being empowered with?  

It's a FOX News perspective that ignores the centuries when those folks were being actively suppressed. It focuses instead on how unfair it seems to do more than simply remove the suppression. This perspective complains that "extra privilege" to correct the problem is unfair.

I've never understood the stance. I've been on enough boats to know that if you're off course, it's not enough to simply return to center. You need to overcompensate, steer hard to port for a while before coming back to center, because you were headed too far to starboard.

[TheVat]

I like the boat analogy in that it makes the point that affirmative action programs were never intended to be permanent.  They are supposed to be implemented, I'm using college as an example, to help get minorities who start with some academic disadvantages into the college system.  Course corrections on the boat.  The idea was always that the following generations, raised with the advantages of college-educated higher-earning (sometimes) parents, won't need AA at all.  That was the whole point of Senator Daniel P. Moynihan's concept of breaking the cycle of poverty.  AA is a ladder out of a hole, not a permanent fixture everywhere you go.  

If a smart kid has trouble keeping up in school because parents (or a single parent) can't provide homework help, a quiet study space, extra cash for lessons and tutoring, a big shelf of books, trips to museums and arts events, and an array of other amenities that help kids do well in school....well, it's in society's best interest to give him some extra help, because it's in society's interest to have citizens that reach their intellectual potential.