Does electron-proton attraction have more strength than electron-electron repulsion ?

[JustJoe]

Does electron-proton attraction have more strength than electron-electron repulsion ? 

Edited December 15, 2022 by JustJoe

[joigus]

No. The measure of such strenght is the fine-structure constant, which in turn is basically the square of the fundamental unit of free electric charge. You can find it in many a good scientific calculator.

So no.

[Genady]

8 minutes ago, joigus said:

No. The measure of such strenght is the fine-structure constant, which in turn is basically the square of the fundamental unit of free electric charge. You can find it in many a good scientific calculator.

So no.

Maybe at some very small distances?

[joigus]

7 minutes ago, Genady said:

Maybe at some very small distances?

Well, yes. But if I'm allowed to play with distances, then any force can be made stronger, or weaker, as any other. I'm assuming same distance.

[Genady]

3 minutes ago, joigus said:

I'm assuming same distance.

Me too. Still?

[joigus]

Same distance, same "force," meaning same Feynman diagram to all levels in QED (except for sign) if you assume the proton to be point-like. If you ramp-up the collision energy though you would eventually find EM form factors in the proton, but no form factors in the electron, so...

You must not assume, as a matter of course, a question to have the most possible conceivable context, I think. You must narrow down the possibilities by assuming a natural context. This could be said of any question.

[Genady]

10 minutes ago, joigus said:

You must not assume, as a matter of course, a question to have the most possible conceivable context, I think. You must narrow down the possibilities by assuming a natural context. This could be said of any question.

Normally, yes. But this OPer was not serious and was not really interested and has been banned. So, now we're free to discuss the question in any context.

I consider a proton to be a "bag" of two positive and one negative charges. At a small enough distance, the electron would induce the proton to be more positive in the electron direction and more negative in the opposite direction. Increasing the attraction as a result. Perhaps, at a small enough distance electron and neutron also attract, by a similar mechanism. Your thoughts?

[joigus]

36 minutes ago, Genady said:

Normally, yes. But this OPer was not serious and was not really interested and has been banned. So, now we're free to discuss the question in any context.

I consider a proton to be a "bag" of two positive and one negative charges. At a small enough distance, the electron would induce the proton to be more positive in the electron direction and more negative in the opposite direction. Increasing the attraction as a result. Perhaps, at a small enough distance electron and neutron also attract, by a similar mechanism. Your thoughts?

That physical intuition makes sense to me. Something like that is to be expected. But a proton is uud only on the average. I don't think it would be anything as simple as a dielectric.

[Mordred]

25 minutes ago, joigus said:

That physical intuition makes sense to me. Something like that is to be expected. But a proton is uud only on the average. I don't think it would be anything as simple as a dielectric.

if there is any measurable deviation in the quark sea for the valence quarks alignment it would be extremely subtle I would think likely following a probability distribution naturally. A rotating charged particle generates a magnetic moment so here is one study of precision tests of a protons magnetic moment for examination.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1201.3038.pdf

19 minutes ago, Mordred said:

if there is any measurable deviation in the quark sea for the valence quarks alignment it would be extremely subtle I would think likely following a probability distribution naturally. A rotating charged particle generates a magnetic moment so here is one study of precision tests of a protons magnetic moment for examination.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1201.3038.pdf

edit I should reword that to any particle with an angular momentum and a charge distribution term to avoid visualization of a spinning ball 

oops almost forgot there is a difference in the types of magnetic moments the proton uses the nuclear magnetic moment where as the electron applies the orbital magnetic moment the proton magnetic moment is subsequently lower than the the electron magnetic moment.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Mordred

[joigus]

30 minutes ago, Mordred said:

if there is any measurable deviation in the quark sea for the valence quarks alignment it would be extremely subtle I would think likely following a probability distribution naturally. 

Quarks don't want to get pulled apart...

[Mordred]

20 minutes ago, joigus said:

Quarks don't want to get pulled apart...

No they certainly don't under asymptotic freedom lol.

[Sensei]

On 12/15/2022 at 5:07 AM, JustJoe said:

Does electron-proton attraction have more strength than electron-electron repulsion ? 

The electron is not the only negative particle. There are others e.g. Pion- , Kaon- , antiproton and "hundreds" of others.

The proton is not the only positive particle. There are others e.g. Pion+, Kaon+, positron and "hundreds" of others.

If you accelerated different charged particles (using an external electric field), and the forces were asymmetrical, the differences in their velocities would be easily detectable.

Higher velocity -> higher kinetic energy -> longer trace in the e.g. Cloud Chamber, Bubble Chamber etc.

The same with the mass between the particle and its corresponding antiparticle. Significantly different rest-mass affects observations.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Sensei

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Genady said:

Normally, yes. But this OPer was not serious and was not really interested and has been banned. So, now we're free to discuss the question in any context.

I consider a proton to be a "bag" of two positive and one negative charges. At a small enough distance, the electron would induce the proton to be more positive in the electron direction and more negative in the opposite direction. Increasing the attraction as a result. Perhaps, at a small enough distance electron and neutron also attract, by a similar mechanism. Your thoughts?

It’s a matter of scale. The nuclear attraction gives an energy scale of MeV, while the electrostatic is of order 10 eV. And that’s for bare charges, not some induced dipole or quadrupole. The electron can be closer than the Bohr radius, but it doesn’t stay there.