Please name some practical solutions to combat littering.

[mistermack]

17 minutes ago, Sensei said:

People cut off the hands of thieves, kill murderers, etc. and what.. nothing.. It didn't work..

It might be a bit extreme, but where's the evidence it doesn't work? A friend of mine worked in Saudi some years ago, and currency traders would sit on the pavement, with great wads of cash of different currencies surrounding them. Nobody ever robbed them.

And one murder doesn't mean that people aren't deterred by the death penalty. (although I'm against it) It might have deterred 19 out of 20, how can you be sure?

[Eise]

On 12/17/2022 at 6:09 PM, studiot said:

There were lots of bins proclaiming loudly  "Papier Hier"     (Perhaps @Eise will sort my spellin ?"  as you passed

I think they also said "Dank u Vell"  if you put something in.

Yep, "Papier hier" is correct. Phonetically you are very close with "Dank u Vell", correct spelling is "Dankuwel". Not so extreme as in German, but in Dutch we also glue words together.

[studiot]

10 hours ago, mistermack said:

It might be a bit extreme, but where's the evidence it doesn't work? A friend of mine worked in Saudi some years ago, and currency traders would sit on the pavement, with great wads of cash of different currencies surrounding them. Nobody ever robbed them.

And one murder doesn't mean that people aren't deterred by the death penalty. (although I'm against it) It might have deterred 19 out of 20, how can you be sure?

Again I sympathise with this and can confirm both experiences. +1

When I worked in Saudi, I found the best way to be paid was to be paid in Saudi Riyals in cash and take the cash to one of those money traders in a souk (which is a rabbit warren of alleys) to be changed into steerling.

One day when I went to one of these the guy had a little kiosk, with neat piles of money on shelves behind him dollars, sterling, marks etc. As I arrived he took of his headress and spread it over the shelves. Then he wandered off somewhare down the alley, without a backward glance, for a glass of chai.

On another occasion there was a gold trader with a proper shop (garage). at some point he had too many gold bars so he put some outside in a box.
After a few days, temptation got to much for an itinerant worker and he helped himself to a couple.

I learned later that the police had cut off a hand.

 

Now I don't condone quite a few arab practices but I can say this regime worked in general.
I can definitely say that I felt much safer in that rabbit warren souk, as did properly dressed lone western women, than I would do in any other comparable rabbit warren anywhere else in the world.

 

2 hours ago, Eise said:

Yep, "Papier hier" is correct. Phonetically you are very close with "Dank u Vell", correct spelling is "Dankuwel". Not so extreme as in German, but in Dutch we also glue words together.

Thanks. +1

I hope you also got the joke.

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, studiot said:

When I worked in Saudi, I found the best way to be paid was to be paid in Saudi Riyals in cash and take the cash to one of those money traders in a souk (which is a rabbit warren of alleys) to be changed into steerling.

One day when I went to one of these the guy had a little kiosk, with neat piles of money on shelves behind him dollars, sterling, marks etc. As I arrived he took of his headress and spread it over the shelves. Then he wandered off somewhare down the alley, without a backward glance, for a glass of chai.

On another occasion there was a gold trader with a proper shop (garage). at some point he had too many gold bars so he put some outside in a box.
After a few days, temptation got to much for an itinerant worker and he helped himself to a couple.

I learned later that the police had cut off a hand.

 

Now I don't condone quite a few arab practices but I can say this regime worked in general.
I can definitely say that I felt much safer in that rabbit warren souk, as did properly dressed lone western women, than I would do in any other comparable rabbit warren anywhere else in the world.

Part of that is the culture they live in, as described in my dog shit analog; the punishment is almost irrelevant if one is always seen and most people buy into the righteousness of the crime; in a rabbit warren there are lots of places for hidden eyes to witness without being seen.

In a park there's nothing for the hidden eyes to hide behind.

 

23 hours ago, mistermack said:

Was there a point?  I stopped looking for a point in your posts a long long time ago !

Well, I can't force you too pay attention... 🤓 

[studiot]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Part of that is the culture they live in, as described in my dog shit analog; the punishment is almost irrelevant if one is always seen and most people buy into the righteousness of the crime; in a rabbit warren there are lots of places for hidden eyes to witness without being seen.

In a park there's nothing for the hidden eyes to hide behind.

I really don't see how this is relevent to anything I said.

Perhaps that is because I did not spell out my line of thinking in so many words.

What is the use of a thousand witnesses and all angle camera footage if the authorities refuse/fail to act ?

It is not the threat/fear of being seen it is the threat of being caught and punished.

About the culture, there are also things I liked about Saudi culture, they appear more honest that most cultures I have visited, sadly including my own.

[dimreepr]

32 minutes ago, studiot said:

It is not the threat/fear of being seen it is the threat of being caught and punished.

Don't you have to been seen, before a punishment is a threat?

[mistermack]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Don't you have to been seen, before a punishment is a threat?

No

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, mistermack said:

No

What a well reasoned reply... 🤔

The only type of criminal that wants to be seen committing a crime (terrorist's), doesn't expect to live, or get away with it; that would be the very definition of someone that does not care what the punishment is.

What about criminal's that think they can't be seen, camo, disguise etc. but are uncovered by forensics, I hear you, potentially, argue; dude, we are talking about petty littering, "no one expected the Spanish inquisition". 😇

Don't even get me started on fly tipping... 😣

Edited December 20, 2022 by dimreepr

[CrystalMagic]

I think in the future, when the resources obtained from the earth begin to run out, people will quickly learn how to recycle garbage.

[dan_boi]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:09 PM, CrystalMagic said:

I think in the future, when the resources obtained from the earth begin to run out, people will quickly learn how to recycle garbage.

I absolutely agree with the above statement, it will become a must in the future.

[WhatsThat]

It does seem to follow a sense of involvement in community.

In wealthier and more educated areas, there is less litter. In fact, a stray can will be removed from the street quickly in a more affluent area. In poorer and less educated communities, litter is rife. A stray can will rust and decay before anyone lifts it from the ground.

Maybe if normal people could adopt patches of areas instead of big corporations? If somehow average people could feel an attachment and investment in their own little space? I bet there would be a host of creative and beautiful settings if we could somehow get everyone to see Nature as part of a whole. After all, birds and trees and grass don't care how much someone makes......

[zapatos]

3 hours ago, WhatsThat said:

It does seem to follow a sense of involvement in community.

In wealthier and more educated areas, there is less litter. In fact, a stray can will be removed from the street quickly in a more affluent area. In poorer and less educated communities, litter is rife. A stray can will rust and decay before anyone lifts it from the ground.

Maybe if normal people could adopt patches of areas instead of big corporations? If somehow average people could feel an attachment and investment in their own little space? I bet there would be a host of creative and beautiful settings if we could somehow get everyone to see Nature as part of a whole. After all, birds and trees and grass don't care how much someone makes......

I get so tired of people who blame the poor for their lot in life. If only they went to  college and earned more money they would be the better kind of person who quickly picks up trash, instead of letting it rust on the ground along with every other single person in the neighborhood, none of whom give a shit.

[StringJunky]

7 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I get so tired of people who blame the poor for their lot in life. If only they went to  college and earned more money they would be the better kind of person who quickly picks up trash, instead of letting it rust on the ground along with every other single person in the neighborhood, none of whom give a shit.

Yes. Affluence is no indicator of  environmental concern. Affluent areas will naturally have more 'string pullers' who can get others to do it for them. Rubbish is as likely to fly out of a high-end Mercedes as a shed on wheels.

[CharonY]

7 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Yes. Affluence is no indicator of  environmental concern. Affluent areas will naturally have more 'string pullers' who can get others to do it for them. Rubbish is as likely to fly out of a high-end Mercedes as a shed on wheels.

Even worse, generally speaking affluent folks consume more and produce more garbage. As you noted, they are just better able to pay folks to clean it up and frequently things get dumped into poor areas/countries. 

[Phi for All]

3 hours ago, WhatsThat said:

In wealthier and more educated areas, there is less litter. In fact, a stray can will be removed from the street quickly in a more affluent area. In poorer and less educated communities, litter is rife. A stray can will rust and decay before anyone lifts it from the ground.

Are you aware most communities in the US base education and sanitation expenditures on property values? In essence, this means wealthier areas receive more education funding, and better sanitation services BECAUSE they're wealthier. In poorer communities, far less is spent on education and sanitation so we get situations where "litter is rife", but you seem to be blaming the citizens for this. 

You make it sound like the rich are removing the stray trash cans themselves, so why shouldn't the poor? It gets removed quickly in the rich neighborhood because the trash services respond. It lingers in the poor area because the trash services don't respond, even after multiple complaints.

4 hours ago, WhatsThat said:

Maybe if normal people could adopt patches of areas instead of big corporations?

I thought big corporations wanted to be normal people?

4 hours ago, WhatsThat said:

If somehow average people could feel an attachment and investment in their own little space? I bet there would be a host of creative and beautiful settings if we could somehow get everyone to see Nature as part of a whole. After all, birds and trees and grass don't care how much someone makes......

My plan to implement your idea would be to raise the taxes on those big corporations to fair levels, tax top tier income so hard that the billionaires start investing instead of sitting on cash, and increase city services all across the board. Knowing that their government cares enough to invest in their communities, people will feel an attachment they don't now. I would welcome an effort to help citizens see the amazingness of nature and all it's bounty. 

I consider society to be a bargain between peoples. We agree to certain necessary rules (especially sanitation, health, and hygiene), and gain the benefits of working towards a meaningful level of prosperity and fulfillment. I want people to care about the environment we all live in, but I know it's difficult when big corporations pretend to care as they pollute and litter and also lobby away our social services and environmental regulations. 

 

[AIkonoklazt]

Most of this stuff is cultural. When I was in Kyoto I thought holy cow, those were some of the cleanest backstreets I've seen in my entire life- I could almost eat off the ground!... Almost.

..and then there was Nice (pronounced "neese",) with its dog poop sidewalks. Nice.

Since changing culture is not extremely practical, I'd say there's nothing like some negative financial incentive. Start handing out hundred-dollar tickets left and right and see what happens.

[StringJunky]

17 minutes ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Most of this stuff is cultural. When I was in Kyoto I thought holy cow, those were some of the cleanest backstreets I've seen in my entire life- I could almost eat off the ground!... Almost.

..and then there was Nice (pronounced "neese",) with its dog poop sidewalks. Nice.

Since changing culture is not extremely practical, I'd say there's nothing like some negative financial incentive. Start handing out hundred-dollar tickets left and right and see what happens.

It's about getting the message out in the right way and somehow attaching some "tut-tut.. shame" to it socially. It seems to be stronger in places like Japan. I am quite affine to some of the Japanese ways. 

Edited January 6 by StringJunky

[TheVat]

7 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

It's about getting the message out in the right way and somehow attaching attach some "tut-tut.. shame" to it socially. It seems to be stronger in places like Japan. I am quite affine to some of the Japanese ways. 

Me too.  Though social shame doesn't work with teenagers in some societies, often triggering more of an undesirable behavior as an enjoyable bit of rebellion.  I used to live near a high school, so have unfortunately accumulated a fair amount of anthropological data on this.  Fairly stiff enforcement would be required for that demographic, because moral lectures (How would you feel if I started depositing my trash in YOUR yard, hm?) would be ineffective.  

A friend of my parents, many years ago, had a rather unusual solution to someone tossing litter from their passing car into his yard.  He took down the plates and, being a journalist, was somehow able to obtain their home address.  He then mailed the litter (including some spoiled food) to them with a letter explaining that he was kindly returning to them what was theirs.  A satisfying story, but an unusual bit of luck to see the perpetrators in the act.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Start handing out hundred-dollar tickets left and right and see what happens.

What would happen is the wealthier citizens would continue littering and carrying on with their day since they wouldn’t “feel” such a minor slap on the wrist, while the poverty stricken and struggling would go without yet another meal that day when they get fined for a gum wrapper being snatched out of their hand by the wind and blown across the street into an awaiting officers view. 

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

attaching some "tut-tut.. shame" to it socially.

Same issue is ruining much of our politics and governance: Lack of shame more broadly 

49 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Fairly stiff enforcement would be required for that demographic,

Singapore and bubblegum comes to mind 

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It's about getting the message out in the right way and somehow attaching some "tut-tut.. shame" to it socially. It seems to be stronger in places like Japan. I am quite affine to some of the Japanese ways. 

There is collective disapproval, but kids also learn to clean up their classroom. That might also stick.

[StringJunky]

14 hours ago, TheVat said:

Me too.  Though social shame doesn't work with teenagers in some societies, often triggering more of an undesirable behavior as an enjoyable bit of rebellion.

Their 'naughty step' can be denial of cell phone privileges for some specified period. They will be fitted with an ankle-worn phone jammer,, so that nobody's phone can work them within 10m of them. They'll  be a social pariah jamming peoples phones.  No phone is a state of death for a millennial and younger.

Edited January 6 by StringJunky

[zapatos]

16 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Their 'naughty step' can be denial of cell phone privileges for some specified period. They will be fitted with an ankle-worn phone jammer,, so that nobody's phone can work them within 10m of them. They'll  be a social pariah jamming peoples phones.  No phone is a state of death for a millennial and younger.

🤣

Edited January 6 by zapatos

[TheVat]

Ankle-worn cell jammer: brilliant!  I rank that up there with EMP cannon for use on loud car subwoofers.  

 

[Sensei]

15 hours ago, TheVat said:

Though social shame doesn't work with teenagers in some societies, often triggering more of an undesirable behavior as an enjoyable bit of rebellion.

 

In the United States and UK, the names of criminals are published by the media.. and you can see the results - everyone knows the names of the serial killers (now even TV and Netflix series are created about them, what they did and how, with details), and they started to like it ("fame"), and copycats appeared, mimicking previous murders of serial killers based on detailed photos of police investigations that the media published..

Osama bin Laden was inspired by hijack of other airplane, Air France Flight 8969. Mass media and politicians worried to let this airplane flight to the France to Paris and hit some building.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969

"We received this information directly from members of the Algerian secret service. And this information was very worrying. The terrorists' true aim was to crash the plane in Paris. — French Minister of the Interior Charles Pasqua[6]"

Public shaming, by revealing detailed information about their bad deeds, works against some, but also inspires others.

14 hours ago, iNow said:

What would happen is the wealthier citizens would continue littering and carrying on with their day since they wouldn’t “feel” such a minor slap on the wrist, while the poverty stricken and struggling would go without yet another meal that day when they get fined for a gum wrapper being snatched out of their hand by the wind and blown across the street into an awaiting officers view. 

Welcome to China and its points system. People cannot travel on public transportation, buses, trains, planes, etc. because they have too low score.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#No-fly_and_no-ride_lists

ps. The neighborhoods surrounding the homes of millionaires and billionaires are usually pretty darn clean..

 

[TheVat]

15 hours ago, iNow said:

Singapore and bubblegum comes to mind 

Had to Google this.  Wow.  $500-1000 fine for first offense and then it doubles again.  Seems to fit your falls heavier on the poor scenario.  Admit that I laughed when I got to the trafficking penalties.  Gum trafficking, what a concept.  

Edited January 6 by TheVat