New Zealand Smoking Law

[MigL]

We haven't had a good political discussion in a while, and I miss butting heads with INow, Zapatos, Peterkin, and Phi.

New Zealand recently passed a law that makes it illegal to buy or sell sigarettes to anyone born after 2008.

New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations - BBC News

Now I think this is a valiant effort to combat the smoking problem and its related health and societal issues, but I don't like the method used.

The ban currently affects minors, but in 4 or 7 years ( depending on age of majority ), those minors will be adults.
Adults who have one less 'right' than any other adult who is a year or more older.
This law, in effect, legislates two classes of adult citizens.
No law should be able to do that.
( and if I have to give examples, you haven't been paying attention to history )

Your thoughts ?

[joigus]

I don't like it either. Prohibition tends to make room for more criminal activity.

If anything, youngsters are more attracted to what's forbidden to them than discouraged by the prohibition.

But what do I know...

I'm looking forward to your head-butting. 

Interesting points always surface.

 

[Genady]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

We haven't had a good political discussion in a while, and I miss butting heads with INow, Zapatos, Peterkin, and Phi.

New Zealand recently passed a law that makes it illegal to buy or sell sigarettes to anyone born after 2008.

New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations - BBC News

Now I think this is a valiant effort to combat the smoking problem and its related health and societal issues, but I don't like the method used.

The ban currently affects minors, but in 4 or 7 years ( depending on age of majority ), those minors will be adults.
Adults who have one less 'right' than any other adult who is a year or more older.
This law, in effect, legislates two classes of adult citizens.
No law should be able to do that.
( and if I have to give examples, you haven't been paying attention to history )

Your thoughts ?

This division into two classes will be only temporary.

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

I don't like it either. Prohibition tends to make room for more criminal activity.

If anything, youngsters are more attracted to what's forbidden to them than discouraged by the prohibition.

 

My thought too.  Nanny laws just sweeten criminality.  And what about nicotine gum, Skoal, vape cartridges, and other unhealthful nicotine habits?  This is a silly law for, what, eight percent of the NZ population?  

 

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

I don't like it either. Prohibition tends to make room for more criminal activity.

If anything, youngsters are more attracted to what's forbidden to them than discouraged by the prohibition.

But what do I know...

I'm looking forward to your head-butting. 

Interesting points always surface.

This is my stance as well, on all points. I've gone out of my way to do things I didn't even want to do just because someone told me I couldn't. Orneriness should be taken into consideration.

The only way I quit smoking was to remind myself daily how much better off I was. Saving money, no more stink, better stamina, less cleaning up, and a better overall feeling were reasonable outcomes to quitting. If the gov had passed a law, It would have taken me a LOT longer to quit.

[zapatos]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

This law, in effect, legislates two classes of adult citizens.

Challenge accepted...

We legislate two classes all the time: drinking, fornicating, marriage, voting, running for office, retiring. Why not one for smoking? Why should smoking get special status and not have to adhere to an age limit? 

Basically what this law does is grandfather in people prior to an outright ban. Another thing done all the time.

4 hours ago, MigL said:

Adults who have one less 'right' than any other adult who is a year or more older.

It's not a right, it is a, um, privilege I guess? 

[MigL]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Challenge accepted...

You''ll have to do better than that.
Drinking, fornicating, marriage, voting, and running for office are prohibited to minors, not to adults who are capable of making their own decisions.
As for retirement, canada has no mandatory age for retirement; you can work until you are 80, if able, and can 'retire' at any age.
Benefits/pensions paid to youhave certain rules ( just like employment insurance, child benefit or welfare ), but they apply to all adults equally.

Smoking already is a privilege, because you can only do it in certain areas, but this law criminalizes buying  something, which others are allowed to.

[Sensei]

Politicians often create silly laws to pretend that they (politicians) are needed for anything other than screwing you over by collecting salaries..

 

How is this even supposed to work? In 2030..2040...2050, an adult goes to a store and the clerk asks for an ID card to see if the year of birth is < 2008 or >= 2008.. ?

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=new+zealand+smoking+population

"The drop of New Zealand's overall smoking rate to 8% would place it among some of the world's lowest prevalences."

"New Zealand/Population 5.123 million (2021)"  * 8% = 410k

 

[TheVat]

I think the already low rate of smoking is why lawmakers thought they could get away with this.

As @Sensei noted, you would have absurd situations.  In 2050, the forty year old can't buy cigarettes.  But his spouse is 43, so he just has them pick up a carton when they're at the store, since they have a legal right he lacks.  Unenforceable.  

If you are going to ban something, just ban it, period.  

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

You''ll have to do better than that.
Drinking, fornicating, marriage, voting, and running for office are prohibited to minors, not to adults who are capable of making their own decisions.
As for retirement, canada has no mandatory age for retirement; you can work until you are 80, if able, and can 'retire' at any age.
Benefits/pensions paid to youhave certain rules ( just like employment insurance, child benefit or welfare ), but they apply to all adults equally.

Smoking already is a privilege, because you can only do it in certain areas, but this law criminalizes buying  something, which others are allowed to.

In the US:

Drinking age: 21

Age of consent: Per the federal government it is 18. Unless the older person is 21, then the age of consent is seventeen. But if the older person is 20 then the age of consent is 16. This progression goes down to an age of consent of 12 if the older person is 16. Unless you are in California where two people who are 17 do not have the right to consent. This changes by state. In France a 15 year old can consent to sex with an 80 year old. In New Zealand you'd have to be 16.

Marriage age: 18. Unless you are in Nebraska then it is 19. Or Mississippi where it is 21. Unless you have parental consent, then it is younger.

Voting age: Varies by country from 16 to 21.

Retirement age (with benefits): Between the ages of 62 and 70.

Running for political office: In the states it varies from 18 to 30. For president you must be 35.

As you can see, the age at which you can do any of those things depends on where you live. There is no standard age of minority or majority. And even in locations where there is a standard age of minority and majority, the right to drink, fornicate, marry, vote and run for office do not all follow those standard ages.

Even though one is considered an adult wrt fornicating, you may still have to be older to drink, marry, vote and run for office. In the US you are generally considered an adult at 18, but you still can't buy a beer, run for certain offices, or maybe even marry without your parents approving.

 

42 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I think the already low rate of smoking is why lawmakers thought they could get away with this.

 

That and the fact that anyone impacted by it probably doesn't even know it is happening, and can't do anything about it if they do know.

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Age of consent: Per the federal government it is 18. Unless the older person is 21, then the age of consent is seventeen. But if the older person is 20 then the age of consent is 16. This progression goes down to an age of consent of 12 if the older person is 16. Unless you are in California where two people who are 17 do not have the right to consent. This changes by state. In France a 15 year old can consent to sex with an 80 year old. In New Zealand you'd have to be 16.

This is an example of a bad, ineffective and unenforceable laws.. created by bored politicians to pretend work..

What really matters is whether or not there is consent to have sex with someone. If there is no consent, and there was forced sex, then it is rape and someone (or not) informs the police.

No one will inform the authorities about consensual sex, no matter what age they were.

 

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

That and the fact that anyone impacted by it probably doesn't even know it is happening, and can't do anything about it if they do know.

 

This is how to create a populist politician - it will win votes from smokers, for the cancellation of this law in the future.

[Genady]

4 minutes ago, Sensei said:

No one will inform the authorities about consensual sex, no matter what age they were.

Parents, neighbors, teachers, peers, ... will.

[zapatos]

25 minutes ago, Sensei said:

What really matters is whether or not there is consent to have sex with someone.

Saying "I consent" doesn't mean much if you are not capable of understanding what consent is. That is why it doesn't matter if you consent or not when you are judged to be too young to consent.

[Sensei]

34 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Saying "I consent" doesn't mean much if you are not capable of understanding what consent is. That is why it doesn't matter if you consent or not when you are judged to be too young to consent.

Too young children, before the age of 13, are generally not interested in sex to any great extent.

Interest in the sexual act, and the opposite gender begins to appear at the age of about 13 years, depending on the development of a person.

Different laws in different states, in different countries, cannot change human biology.

 

ps. Children often do not consent i.e. try giving them food they don't like (e.g. tomatoes, broccoli, Brussels sprout, spinach)..

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Sensei

[zapatos]

12 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Different laws in different states, in different countries, cannot change human biology.

The laws are not there to change human biology. They are there in an attempt to protect children from predators. 

Similarly there are laws against children drinking alcohol, working in coal mines, and buying guns even though their human biology allows them to do so.

[iNow]

10 hours ago, MigL said:

Your thoughts ?

I think they should allow sales on the condition that the smoker pay for extra private insurance on top of the national healthcare guaranteed to all citizens and paid for with tax dollars. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 12/17/2022 at 10:31 PM, iNow said:

I think they should allow sales on the condition that the smoker pay for extra private insurance on top of the national healthcare guaranteed to all citizens and paid for with tax dollars. 

Arguably the vice tax on cigarettes helps pay for the extra public health care required. Though of course not directly.

[iNow]

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Arguably the vice tax on cigarettes helps pay for the extra public health care required. Though of course not directly.

This is an excellent point and seems more efficient than my idea.

Perhaps that bit of extra friction added by the requirement for private coverage could, however, be enough of an extra nudge tans lead to measurably better results (though likely not results as good as the outright ban after X age which was implemented)

Edited December 19, 2022 by iNow

[Sensei]

4 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Arguably the vice tax on cigarettes helps pay for the extra public health care required. Though of course not directly.

Excise tax on cigarettes and alcohol is a significant portion of their price.

In my country excise and VAT on cigarettes account for over 80% of their price (which is already ridiculous).

i.e. "1" cigarettes without taxes, "5" taxes, "6" cigarettes with taxes.

Ref: https://taxfoundation.org/cigarette-tax-europe-2021/

 

Now check how much $$$ your local government earned from excise taxes in a year, and how much they spend on salaries for doctors, nurses, hospitals.

Wouldn't they "go bankrupt" if everyone said "I don't smoke"

 

"The black hole" made by everyone saying "I quit smoking" would be bigger than the mortgage crisis of 2007-2008+..

 

 

 

[DimaMazin]

It is impossible to get sailors to eat sauerkraut when the officers do not eat it. Therefore smoking should be forbidden for officials and deputies.

[mistermack]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:15 AM, Sensei said:

"The black hole" made by everyone saying "I quit smoking" would be bigger than the mortgage crisis of 2007-2008+..

Smoking helps the economy in other ways. It kills old people earlier, so they are a burden on the working population for about 15 years less. And it kills a higher proportion of criminals than non-criminals. As do alcohol and drugs. 

[DimaMazin]

20 hours ago, mistermack said:

Smoking helps the economy in other ways. It kills old people earlier, so they are a burden on the working population for about 15 years less. And it kills a higher proportion of criminals than non-criminals. As do alcohol and drugs. 

Then I don't understand how it was useful for Einstein. Maybe smoking people get be old earlier. Criminals and non-criminals is some relative thing. A war is useful also, but it works like probability and decimation.

[npts2020]

What if you just grow your own? I wonder if it is as easy to grow tobacco in your closet as it is cannabis?...

[MigL]

1 hour ago, npts2020 said:

What if you just grow your own? I wonder if it is as easy to grow tobacco in your closet as it is cannabis?...

We would give you advice, but it is still illegal in a lot of jurisdictions, and we don't advise on illegal activities 😄 .

Best advice I can give is move to Canada.

[sethoflagos]

27 minutes ago, MigL said:

Best advice I can give is move to Canada.

Apparently they're charging over £150 ($180+) for 200 Benson & Hedges in the UK.

In Lagos they've gone up recently to £10 per 200 (same brand, same quality)

It does have a bearing on which country I choose to spend my time in. So the UK isn't just losing the cigarette duty, it's not getting any tax at all from me. But what do I know - they're the infallible masters of economic management, not me.

Edited December 31, 2022 by sethoflagos