My analysis of Brexit: BRUS is the next big thing on the blocks.

[JacobNewton]

BRUS: British-US alliance.

My logic runs as follows

There was Brexit, a breaking away of the EU, a giant on the world plane, and now Britain is alone. 

Britain's loss of the EU can be replenished in the form of the USA. The USA while not a global governing body of sorts like the EU, is still a force to reckon with, being the worlds most powerful nation. In any case it is better than nothing.

USA is also the country best fitted to form an alliance with the UK. That alliance has won wars time and again for the UK, in WW1 and WW2, no reason it shouldn't prove fruitful in the case of a political alliance like BRUS. 

Thoughts?

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, JacobNewton said:

My logic runs as follows <snip> Thoughts?

You need to refresh your definition of logic.

[Sensei]

2 hours ago, JacobNewton said:

The USA while not a global governing body of sorts like the EU, is still a force to reckon with, being the worlds most powerful nation.

..but US is not the nation..

Find a person on the street in New York, you'll get "I'm Jewish," "I'm Italian," "I'm Chinese," etc.

In Chicago, they will say "I'm Polish"..

The only ones who have no idea where they came from are the descendants of slaves who were captured by force or trickery and enslaved..

 

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, JacobNewton said:

BRUS: British-US alliance.

Both countries already talk about this long-standing alliance. How are you defining the term? 

Are you talking about more treaties between the 1st and 5th largest economies, or do you want England to be the 51st state?

[exchemist]

30 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Both countries already talk about this long-standing alliance. How are you defining the term? 

Are you talking about more treaties between the 1st and 5th largest economies, or do you want England to be the 51st state?

And, believe me, it would be England. The Scots and Welsh would never accept such a thing! 

[Phi for All]

20 minutes ago, exchemist said:

And, believe me, it would be England. The Scots and Welsh would never accept such a thing! 

The Scots and Welsh know the US would recolonize the UK. You spend far too much on public interests like healthcare, you only have like 50 billionaires, and your workers want fair accommodations as if they were really important. You participate far too much in your own economy with all that vacationing, and all that history is bogging you down with old buildings and protected reserves. We can show you how to pave over England's pleasant pastures so you can be just like us!

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

The Scots and Welsh know the US would recolonize the UK. You spend far too much on public interests like healthcare, you only have like 50 billionaires, and your workers want fair accommodations as if they were really important. You participate far too much in your own economy with all that vacationing, and all that history is bogging you down with old buildings and protected reserves. We can show you how to pave over England's pleasant pastures so you can be just like us!

History does bog us down, certainly. But it is also enriching. I think it’s a good trade-off, but then I was born in Britain - in Scotland, actually.

[Sensei]

39 minutes ago, exchemist said:

History does bog us down, certainly. But it is also enriching. I think it’s a good trade-off, but then I was born in Britain - in Scotland, actually.

"We are all Scots." - To paraphrase Kennedy..

or

"We are all Ukrainians."..

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Sensei

[Phi for All]

28 minutes ago, exchemist said:

History does bog us down, certainly. But it is also enriching. I think it’s a good trade-off, but then I was born in Britain - in Scotland, actually.

I was being sarcastic, without emojis (I never learn!). Your history is a rich tapestry of civilized culture, and I hope you don't let it out of the control of the people/country/state. In the US, we'd have sold off Stonehenge to 3M.

You're ripe for Amerifuckation, though. You have enough nationalists who're afraid of immigrants, you've already allowed private firms to infiltrate the NHS using the COVID-19 situation, and even the vaunted BBC is becoming a less-trusted source of honest journalism. If I were you, I'd stay on the watch for religious extremists, because they just bring the whole kettle to a boil. 

Are you starting to feel like the chaos is being baked in on purpose? Nothing allows for broad spectrum economic opportunities for the already wealthy than uncertainty and fear.

[exchemist]

39 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I was being sarcastic, without emojis (I never learn!). Your history is a rich tapestry of civilized culture, and I hope you don't let it out of the control of the people/country/state. In the US, we'd have sold off Stonehenge to 3M.

You're ripe for Amerifuckation, though. You have enough nationalists who're afraid of immigrants, you've already allowed private firms to infiltrate the NHS using the COVID-19 situation, and even the vaunted BBC is becoming a less-trusted source of honest journalism. If I were you, I'd stay on the watch for religious extremists, because they just bring the whole kettle to a boil. 

Are you starting to feel like the chaos is being baked in on purpose? Nothing allows for broad spectrum economic opportunities for the already wealthy than uncertainty and fear.

I realised you were being sarky, but thought it was a rather profound point nonetheless. When I lived for a couple of years in Houston TX, it took me a while to find out why I felt I didn't fit in and what I thought was lacking. In the Netherlands, by contrast, I felt at home in about a month. It really all boiled down to history, or relative lack thereof. New World countries, like the Americas and Australasia have an admirable energy and sense of the possible that we in the Old World have long since given up on. But we do have all the riches of history instead, which give us a certain groundedness.

The backlash against globalisation is creating a new and ugly nationalist politics on both sides of the Atlantic. But recent polls show the British are now realising Brexit, at least in the absurdly extreme, ideological form in which it has been enacted, was a mistake. I think we are past the high water mark of naïve nationalism.

I'm not too worried by private firms in the NHS, really. GPs have always been private, and the continental healthcare model, which often involves profit-making hospitals being block-contracted to the national health system, does not fill me with terror. My analysis of the US Healthcare system, on the other hand, is it is a broken market because there are two parties on the buying side of the equation, one with no market power and the other with no incentive to drive a hard bargain. The insurers have little incentive to query the bills for drugs and treatment and shop around - they just pass the costs through to employers' healthcare plans. And employees have no choice but to pay the premiums. A national healthcare system that buys care centrally from providers, on the other hand, has huge purchasing power and can really drive a bargain (as drug companies know to their cost, when selling to the British NHS.)  

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by exchemist

[swansont]

5 hours ago, Sensei said:

..but US is not the nation..

Find a person on the street in New York, you'll get "I'm Jewish," "I'm Italian," "I'm Chinese," etc.

 

Spend a lot of time in New York, have you?

[Endy0816]

7 hours ago, JacobNewton said:

BRUS: British-US alliance.

My logic runs as follows

There was Brexit, a breaking away of the EU, a giant on the world plane, and now Britain is alone. 

Britain's loss of the EU can be replenished in the form of the USA. The USA while not a global governing body of sorts like the EU, is still a force to reckon with, being the worlds most powerful nation. In any case it is better than nothing.

USA is also the country best fitted to form an alliance with the UK. That alliance has won wars time and again for the UK, in WW1 and WW2, no reason it shouldn't prove fruitful in the case of a political alliance like BRUS. 

Thoughts?

 

UK is a strong military ally, on broad trade policy our countries are somewhat at odds though. US tends to lean towards protectionism, while UK leans laissez-faire.

US is a union too behind the scenes, so feel like could also be an unhealthy relationship for the UK to jump into.

[MigL]

Don't count yur Brexit chickens before they hatch ...

The UK MoD through British Aerospace, is developing, along with Italy's Leonardo ( which has a strong presence in the UK with helicopters and electronic systems ) and Mitsubishi of Japan, the 6th generation fighter arcraft, Tempest.

BAE Systems Tempest - Wikipedia

Rolls Royce is collaborating with ( Fiat ) Avio and IHI to develop hi-electrical output engines to power this 'system of systems'.
There is a strong possibility that SAAB of Sweden may also join the 20-25 Billion development program.

Doesn't seem like the UK is very isolated to me.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Doesn't seem like the UK is very isolated to me.

Understandable when viewed through the lens of the aerospace sector. That slice of collaboration may not be representative of the broader whole, though. 

[mistermack]

12 hours ago, JacobNewton said:

USA is also the country best fitted to form an alliance with the UK. That alliance has won wars time and again for the UK, in WW1 and WW2

No it hasn't.  The USA needed to be attacked by Japan, and declared war on by Hitler, before they joined WW2. Nothing to do with an 'alliance'. And in WW1 the USA sat it out for two and a half years, until they saw who was winning, and the German UBoats started sinking American shipping.  And of course, the Russians played a teeny weeny part in Hitler's downfall, to the tune of about 30 million of Russian lives lost, compared to a less than half a million Americans.

[CharonY]

15 minutes ago, mistermack said:

No it hasn't.  The USA needed to be attacked by Japan, and declared war on by Hitler, before they joined WW2.

Well, the US has supported the UK (and the Soviet Union) with materiel vial the Lend-Lease act a fair bit before that. But yes, the impact on WW2 should not be simplified as outlined by OP. A famous phrase was that WW2 was won with British intelligence, American steel and Russian blood.

Since Brexit there are talks between UK and US regarding trade agreements, but the negotiations started 2018 and there is still ground to cover (though a range of products have been entered now). Ironically a lot of these negotiations are based on agreements the US had with the EU, which at that point also covered the UK. Now the wheel has to be reinvented because of Brexit. 

[JacobNewton]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:25 PM, Phi for All said:

Both countries already talk about this long-standing alliance. How are you defining the term? 

Are you talking about more treaties between the 1st and 5th largest economies, or do you want England to be the 51st state?

not England as a 'state' of USA, but rather, a pact or treaty between two independent nations.

 

23 hours ago, Sensei said:

"We are all Scots." - To paraphrase Kennedy..

or

"We are all Ukrainians."..

 

And your point is?

 

21 hours ago, exchemist said:

I realised you were being sarky, but thought it was a rather profound point nonetheless. When I lived for a couple of years in Houston TX, it took me a while to find out why I felt I didn't fit in and what I thought was lacking. In the Netherlands, by contrast, I felt at home in about a month. It really all boiled down to history, or relative lack thereof. New World countries, like the Americas and Australasia have an admirable energy and sense of the possible that we in the Old World have long since given up on. But we do have all the riches of history instead, which give us a certain groundedness.

The backlash against globalisation is creating a new and ugly nationalist politics on both sides of the Atlantic. But recent polls show the British are now realising Brexit, at least in the absurdly extreme, ideological form in which it has been enacted, was a mistake. I think we are past the high water mark of naïve nationalism.

I'm not too worried by private firms in the NHS, really. GPs have always been private, and the continental healthcare model, which often involves profit-making hospitals being block-contracted to the national health system, does not fill me with terror. My analysis of the US Healthcare system, on the other hand, is it is a broken market because there are two parties on the buying side of the equation, one with no market power and the other with no incentive to drive a hard bargain. The insurers have little incentive to query the bills for drugs and treatment and shop around - they just pass the costs through to employers' healthcare plans. And employees have no choice but to pay the premiums. A national healthcare system that buys care centrally from providers, on the other hand, has huge purchasing power and can really drive a bargain (as drug companies know to their cost, when selling to the British NHS.)  

 

The idea that USA would 'recolonise' the UK, is chilling. 

 

19 hours ago, MigL said:

Don't count yur Brexit chickens before they hatch ...

The UK MoD through British Aerospace, is developing, along with Italy's Leonardo ( which has a strong presence in the UK with helicopters and electronic systems ) and Mitsubishi of Japan, the 6th generation fighter arcraft, Tempest.

BAE Systems Tempest - Wikipedia

Rolls Royce is collaborating with ( Fiat ) Avio and IHI to develop hi-electrical output engines to power this 'system of systems'.
There is a strong possibility that SAAB of Sweden may also join the 20-25 Billion development program.

Doesn't seem like the UK is very isolated to me.

Interesting point there; if BRUS were to occur, it would happen along the wheels of industrial collaborations, according to you?

16 hours ago, mistermack said:

No it hasn't.  The USA needed to be attacked by Japan, and declared war on by Hitler, before they joined WW2. Nothing to do with an 'alliance'. And in WW1 the USA sat it out for two and a half years, until they saw who was winning, and the German UBoats started sinking American shipping.  And of course, the Russians played a teeny weeny part in Hitler's downfall, to the tune of about 30 million of Russian lives lost, compared to a less than half a million Americans.

My point being, the USA and the UK have a proven track record of succesful collaborations in past times. Shouldn't be any reason to not work in the case of a treaty like BRUS.

Edited January 19, 2023 by JacobNewton

[Phi for All]

42 minutes ago, JacobNewton said:

not England as a 'state' of USA, but rather, a pact or treaty between two independent nations.

Here's a list of current bilateral and trilateral treaties that the UK and the US are partners on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_Kingdom–United_States_treaties

What do you want them to agree to beyond all these?

[swansont]

Note that the UKUSA agreement in Phi’s link is an agreement to share intelligence. Not listed is membership in NATO. Sounds to me like we’re allies already. 

The UK didn’t need to have a trade agreement with the US while they were a member of the EU; it wouldn’t be surprising if they finalized one. Negotiations are ongoing, as CharonY has noted.

[Endy0816]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Note that the UKUSA agreement in Phi’s link is an agreement to share intelligence. Not listed is membership in NATO. Sounds to me like we’re allies already. 

The UK didn’t need to have a trade agreement with the US while they were a member of the EU; it wouldn’t be surprising if they finalized one. Negotiations are ongoing, as CharonY has noted.

 

Probably will happen eventually but has officially ended at the moment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom–United_States_free_trade_agreement

President's Trade Promotion Authority expiring is the main issue. Falls back to the House.

There is movement to try and restart everything though, with an emphasis on negotiations with the UK.

https://www.wispolitics.com/2022/u-s-rep-kind-releases-bipartisan-bicameral-trade-policy-recommendations-for-the-118th-congress