Is a moral free market possible?

[dimreepr]

Can anyone suggest an initial design/algorithm of an ethically benign marketplace?

I think the closest example is within shariah law, as it relates to phiscal policy; clearly capitalism won't or can't work within a moral structure.

[joigus]

I'm afraid 100 % free and 100 % ethical is impossible. The moment you introduce freedom, you also introduce the potential for non-ethical behaviour. It's the law of unintended consequences at work.

100 % free would be like the savanna.

100 % ethical --by regulation-- would stall most enterprising iniciatives.

So it's a compromise we must reach. It's always been like that.

Would an algorithm be possible to limit the potential damage of guaranteed unethical behaviour? Sure. But I'm afraid people wouldn't like it, plus there's no money in it for algorithm designers.

When I say "people wouldn't like it" I mean rather the tens who hold billions than the billions who hold tens.

[dimreepr]

13 minutes ago, joigus said:

The moment you introduce freedom, you also introduce the potential for non-ethical behaviour. It's the law of unintended consequences at work.

But all freedoms are constrained; we all have a boss... 

[joigus]

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

But all freedoms are constrained; we all have a boss... 

Yes, but that's on another level. I thought you meant freedom for investors. A regular job is not the market.

Edited January 19, 2023 by joigus
minor correction

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, joigus said:

A regular boss is not the market.

But it does design the initial conditions. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by dimreepr

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Can anyone suggest an initial design/algorithm of an ethically benign marketplace?

Probably not, at least not with money - it's too portable and changeable in value.

A benign marketplace would require all participants to be honest and well-intentioned. But rules can be set up so that anyone dealing dishonestly or harmfully would be expelled. Like a barter group, or better, a resource-based economy.

[exchemist]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Can anyone suggest an initial design/algorithm of an ethically benign marketplace?

I think the closest example is within shariah law, as it relates to phiscal policy; clearly capitalism won't or can't work within a moral structure.

Any marketplace involves competition and self-interest. The buyer's self interest is served by looking for the best quality or the lowest price and the sellers compete to offer that. That process is at best morally neutral.

I see the free market, whether capitalist or not, as like nuclear fission: a great potential benefit but needing careful containment and control to prevent undesirable effects. That's what we have in practice. All the practical political arguments boil down to how much and what sort of controls. Some of these controls can provide incentives towards moral ends if well designed - e.g many of the current climate change interventions by governments.     

[dimreepr]

On 1/19/2023 at 4:32 PM, Peterkin said:

Probably not, at least not with money - it's too portable and changeable in value.

A benign marketplace would require all participants to be honest and well-intentioned. But rules can be set up so that anyone dealing dishonestly or harmfully would be expelled. Like a barter group, or better, a resource-based economy.

On 1/19/2023 at 6:42 PM, exchemist said:

Any marketplace involves competition and self-interest. The buyer's self interest is served by looking for the best quality or the lowest price and the sellers compete to offer that. That process is at best morally neutral.

I see the free market, whether capitalist or not, as like nuclear fission: a great potential benefit but needing careful containment and control to prevent undesirable effects. That's what we have in practice. All the practical political arguments boil down to how much and what sort of controls. Some of these controls can provide incentives towards moral ends if well designed - e.g many of the current climate change interventions by governments.     

We all, the vast majority, consider ourselves to be kind (morally correct), the rules are set up for those who aren't. 

So the question becomes:

How are we allowed to cheat, while being kind?

 

 

 

[exchemist]

15 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

We all, the vast majority, consider ourselves to be kind (morally correct), the rules are set up for those who aren't. 

So the question becomes:

How are we allowed to cheat, while being kind?

 

 

 

I can't follow your logic, I'm afraid.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, exchemist said:

I can't follow your logic, I'm afraid.

What are you afraid of?

[exchemist]

27 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What are you afraid of?

It's an English figure of speech. If I had known English was not your first language, I would not have used it.  

[dimreepr]

9 minutes ago, exchemist said:

It's an English figure of speech. If I had known English was not your first language, I would not have used it.  

To be kind?

[studiot]

OK Dim, how do you tell a Scotsman a joke ?

 

On 1/19/2023 at 1:34 PM, dimreepr said:

Can anyone suggest an initial design/algorithm of an ethically benign marketplace?

I think the closest example is within shariah law, as it relates to phiscal policy; clearly capitalism won't or can't work within a moral structure.

 

I would like to set a context for your use of 'free market'

You do realise that the whole economic concept is based on equal bargaining power and so is too primitive to be of use in the real world.

I fail to see how shariah offers equal or indeed any bargaining power.

[geordief]

8 minutes ago, studiot said:

OK Dim, how do you tell a Scotsman a joke?

with circumspection?

Thought the OP was phrased ambiguously..."a moral-free" market or a moral "free-market"? (I know it is the latter)

Edited January 22, 2023 by geordief

[TheVat]

Anarcho-syndicalism...a method for workers in capitalist society to gain control of an economy and thus control influence in broader society. The end goal of syndicalism is to abolish the wage system, regarding it as wage slavery. Anarcho-syndicalist theory generally focuses on the labour movement.  Reflecting the anarchist philosophy from which it draws its primary inspiration, anarcho-syndicalism is centred on the idea that power corrupts and that any hierarchy that cannot be ethically justified must be dismantled.

The basic principles of anarcho-syndicalism are solidarity, direct action (action undertaken without the intervention of third parties such as politicians, bureaucrats and arbitrators) and direct democracy, or workers' self-management.   ...creating an alternative cooperative economic system with democratic values and production centred on meeting human needs. Anarcho-syndicalists perceive the primary purpose of the state as the defence of private property in the forms of capital goods and thereby of economic, social and political privilege....

(from picky weedia)

2 hours ago, studiot said:

OK Dim, how do you tell a Scotsman a joke ?

A Rolling Stone says, "hey you, get off of my cloud!" while a Scotsman says, "Hey McLeod, get off of my ewe!"

[studiot]

5 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Anarcho-syndicalism...a method for workers in capitalist society to gain control of an economy and thus control influence in broader society. The end goal of syndicalism is to abolish the wage system, regarding it as wage slavery. Anarcho-syndicalist theory generally focuses on the labour movement.  Reflecting the anarchist philosophy from which it draws its primary inspiration, anarcho-syndicalism is centred on the idea that power corrupts and that any hierarchy that cannot be ethically justified must be dismantled.

The basic principles of anarcho-syndicalism are solidarity, direct action (action undertaken without the intervention of third parties such as politicians, bureaucrats and arbitrators) and direct democracy, or workers' self-management.   ...creating an alternative cooperative economic system with democratic values and production centred on meeting human needs. Anarcho-syndicalists perceive the primary purpose of the state as the defence of private property in the forms of capital goods and thereby of economic, social and political privilege....

(from picky weedia)

A Rolling Stone says, "hey you, get off of my cloud!" while a Scotsman says, "Hey McLeod, get off of my ewe!"

Touche  +1

 

Edit I prefer the humorous part of this thread and your post.

Edited January 22, 2023 by studiot

[dimreepr]

On 1/22/2023 at 2:33 PM, studiot said:

You do realise that the whole economic concept is based on equal bargaining power and so is too primitive to be of use in the real world.

I fail to see how shariah offers equal or indeed any bargaining power.

It's based on value, not money; that's the problem with capitalism.

Shariah, by banning monatory interest, introduces the value of investment over the value of the asset; only an accountant can see a value, in striping the asset of it's value.

[studiot]

18 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It's based on value, not money; that's the problem with capitalism.

Shariah, by banning monatory interest, introduces the value of investment over the value of the asset; only an accountant can see a value, in striping the asset of it's value.

I have no quarrel with proper capitalism.

But I don't see how your reply to my post you quoted has anything to do with my point.

 

As regard value, here is a parable about value. Due to Stafford Beer.

 

Take 1lb of apples.

Something of intrinsic worth in its own right.

Give it to a top chef and he will turn it into something worth significantly more.

Give it instead to an ill suited work experience person who may well loose all of its original value let alone add to it, in the mess they make.

Edited January 24, 2023 by studiot

[dimreepr]

On 1/24/2023 at 1:36 PM, studiot said:

I have no quarrel with proper capitalism.

But I don't see how your reply to my post you quoted has anything to do with my point.

 

As regard value, here is a parable about value. Due to Stafford Beer.

 

Take 1lb of apples.

Something of intrinsic worth in its own right.

Give it to a top chef and he will turn it into something worth significantly more.

Give it instead to an ill suited work experience person who may well loose all of its original value let alone add to it, in the mess they make.

 I suppose I'm talking about values, in the market, over value; and how growth based on values is more sustainable, than growth for the sake of value.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by dimreepr

[studiot]

22 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

 I suppose I'm talking about values, in the market, over value; and how growth based on values is more sustainable, than growth for the sake of value.

 

I'm sorry I still don't understand this or how it is related to my post that you replied to.

As a refresher, my post concerned bargaining power.

Those under shariah law have exactly zero bargaining power, as I have already noted.

Economically speaking, have you tried bargaining lately in Tescos ?

It is not a free market.

 

[dimreepr]

22 hours ago, studiot said:

I'm sorry I still don't understand this or how it is related to my post that you replied to.

As a refresher, my post concerned bargaining power.

Those under shariah law have exactly zero bargaining power, as I have already noted.

Economically speaking, have you tried bargaining lately in Tescos ?

It is not a free market.

 

I see, thanks.

No it's never a free market, they are all subject too the law's and the moral outrage of their culture (the initial conditions).

22 hours ago, studiot said:

Those under shariah law have exactly zero bargaining power, as I have already noted.

I disagree, within their culture it's fine to profit from the work of the people invested in, but not from the work of money alone. 

22 hours ago, studiot said:

Economically speaking, have you tried bargaining lately in Tescos ?

Has Tesco's tried opening a shop in Iran?

I have no idea if they have a shop in Iran, but if they have, I bet it was hard work.

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by dimreepr

[paulsutton]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:58 PM, joigus said:

I'm afraid 100 % free and 100 % ethical is impossible. The moment you introduce freedom, you also introduce the potential for non-ethical behaviour. It's the law of unintended consequences at work.

100 % free would be like the savanna.

100 % ethical --by regulation-- would stall most enterprising iniciatives.

So it's a compromise we must reach. It's always been like that.

Would an algorithm be possible to limit the potential damage of guaranteed unethical behaviour? Sure. But I'm afraid people wouldn't like it, plus there's no money in it for algorithm designers.

When I say "people wouldn't like it" I mean rather the tens who hold billions than the billions who hold tens.

So where would the GNU General Public License fit in to this?

https://www.gnu.org/

Or perhaps creative commons licensing

https://creativecommons.org/

Paul

[joigus]

On 4/28/2023 at 8:57 PM, paulsutton said:

So where would the GNU General Public License fit in to this?

https://www.gnu.org/

Or perhaps creative commons licensing

https://creativecommons.org/

Paul

I think they go very much in the direction I was suggesting...

[MigL]

who's ethics and who's morals are you considering here, Dim ?
And why do they supersede other's ethics and morals ?

You do realize that they are subjective concepts and differ for different people, don't you ?

[iNow]

Is that whiskey I smell on your condescension, bud? 😎