Saber Posted January 22, 2023 Posted January 22, 2023 Some of you may know Rumi......the Iranian poet........from * im Iranian my self he lived in the 13th century...... reading some of his poems i saw he states that the planets are 9 .......i have read 2 of his poems that in them he clearly indicates them being 9 .... But the planets have been discovered only up to Saturn ( the 6th ) .....@ that time............those two poems i read made me wonder how he new about them being 9 We had another philosopher called Azziz Al din nassaifi who was not a poet but he wrote books..............and he also lived in the 13th century .......he has two major books and in one of them he indicates & talks about evolution..........not specifically and with details.......but rather as a general rule.....and wrote generally....... he wrote the first living things were Moss......then they turned into plants......and afterwards into animals..... and then the animals evolved into humans...............he states that the first human beings came from ( Zanzibar ) the current Tanzania.....and now science has proved that the Homo species has origins in east African plains.....( Savanna's )..... I wonder how these people knew these things...............and how they came up with these ...................they didnt say that this is my idea.......or ...like : i think so......or kike thats my opinion....... They simply stated that it is like this and these are the facts.... another one was the Attar of Neishapur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attar_of_Nishapur he also lived in the 12 & 13 th centuries.....and he was a poet......once i read a poem from him he stated that the objects that you see with your eyes.....are only there because you see them.....and if you dont look @ them their existence becomes...only as a potential....... Reading that poem made me to think about the ( observer effect ) in Quantum physics And i really really got interested ...............and thought that ..... really this guy knew about that phenomenon ??? or.......is it something else.....!!!! There maybe some other philosophers from around the world @ that time....that knew and stated or wrote about these things also.............i dont know.......in fact i think there must be some other evidence of other people around the world @ that time & times thats shows humans knew these tings back then also.........not systematically & academically..........but rather generally among the philosophers......and scholars......
swansont Posted January 22, 2023 Posted January 22, 2023 It would be helpful if 1. You clarified what you wish to discuss 2. You provided actual quotes rather than paraphrases. You’re giving your interpretation of what they said. Others need to know what they actually said. 3. You got your keyboard fixed. Your “.” key keeps sticking. Makes it difficult to read. 1
Saber Posted January 23, 2023 Author Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) On 1/22/2023 at 6:38 AM, swansont said: It would be helpful if 1. You clarified what you wish to discuss 2. You provided actual quotes rather than paraphrases. You’re giving your interpretation of what they said. Others need to know what they actually said. 3. You got your keyboard fixed. Your “.” key keeps sticking. Makes it difficult to read. 1: i want to know that in other parts of the world in the past centuries also there were some people indicating that the scholars or scientist knew some stuff that we generally think that was out of their times science boundaries 2 : those were the exact things they said i translated them .....i can provide links but their all in my own language....( Farsi ) 3: my keyboard is retarded ill try to train it 4 : Why dont the notification of the site notify me when somebody replies to my threads ? I manually come and check them ........ Edited January 23, 2023 by Saber
Genady Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Saber said: 1: i want to know that in other parts of the world in the past centuries also there were some people indicating that the scholars or scientist knew some stuff that we generally think that was out of their times science boundaries Yes, but with caveats. Are you familiar with the notion of 'cherry-picking'?
sethoflagos Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) On 1/22/2023 at 3:24 AM, Saber said: Some of you may know Rumi......the Iranian poet........from * im Iranian my self he lived in the 13th century...... We had another philosopher called Azziz Al din nassaifi another one was the Attar of Neishapur From what I gather, all three of these people were writing around or a little after the fall of the Abbassid Caliphate in Baghdad to the forces of Hulagu Khan in 1258. Could it be possible that their writings were coloured by such tumultuous events occurring around them, while the world centre of scientific learning for the previous 3 or 4 centuries was being laid waste? Rather than trying to find the underlying truth in the imaginations of poets, I'd be more inclined to look at what contemporary scientists were writing at the time. Have you looked at the writings of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi? Edited January 23, 2023 by sethoflagos
Genady Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 5 hours ago, Saber said: 2 : those were the exact things they said i translated them .....i can provide links but their all in my own language....( Farsi ) I believe that all Rumi writings have been translated to English and perhaps the translations can be found on the Internet. Just give us a name. However, links to the Farsi sources would probably do too, as Google translate works with Persian.
Saber Posted January 23, 2023 Author Posted January 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Genady said: I believe that all Rumi writings have been translated to English and perhaps the translations can be found on the Internet. Just give us a name. However, links to the Farsi sources would probably do too, as Google translate works with Persian. https://ganjoor.net/moulavi/shams/ghazalsh/sh649 here in the 5 th line he indicates the 9 planets He says The 9 planets are all from one origin and entity But it has translated it so : Nine carousels sold that month * it has translated the second line right Unfortunately no.....the translate cant translate poems.....as in iranian poems there is a lot of amphibology..........a lot............and google for sure cant understand them.... In the works & books of Azizz Aldin Nassafi als o is writen in the Farsi language of 700 years ago which is somehow different from todays........ I will try one of his in Google translate also.....to see what it translates
Saber Posted January 23, 2023 Author Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) The One for Attar for example Says this sea of existing things are infinite............and their differences ( here the word differences mean their existence ) is due to observers not because of the vision ( meaning their existence is due to an observer and its not like that they exist and you see them its like because you look at them becuase of your vision they exist there for you ) It has used two Arabic words Basr = Vision & Mobser = the viewer As you see it hasnt translated the Arabic word of Mobser even right because it has confused it with Mobsar.... * In Arabic the Vowels are not letter but little letters written above and under letters....called ( Irab) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ʾIʿrab And when i write them to define Mobser from Mobsar or even Mobbasar ( there is an Irab that doubles the letter ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadda the google translate seems not to pick up on those and reffer all to Mobsar meaning sighted or the thing that is viewed.....Insted of Mobser meaning the viewer or the observer ..... 3 hours ago, sethoflagos said: From what I gather, all three of these people were writing around or a little after the fall of the Abbassid Caliphate in Baghdad to the forces of Hulagu Khan in 1258. Could it be possible that their writings were coloured by such tumultuous events occurring around them, while the world centre of scientific learning for the previous 3 or 4 centuries was being laid waste? Rather than trying to find the underlying truth in the imaginations of poets, I'd be more inclined to look at what contemporary scientists were writing at the time. Have you looked at the writings of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi? My house is in a street named after him.......man................. Edited January 23, 2023 by Saber
Genady Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 52 minutes ago, Saber said: https://ganjoor.net/moulavi/shams/ghazalsh/sh649 here in the 5 th line he indicates the 9 planets He says The 9 planets are all from one origin and entity But it has translated it so : Nine carousels sold that month * it has translated the second line right Unfortunately no.....the translate cant translate poems.....as in iranian poems there is a lot of amphibology..........a lot............and google for sure cant understand them.... In the works & books of Azizz Aldin Nassafi als o is writen in the Farsi language of 700 years ago which is somehow different from todays........ I will try one of his in Google translate also.....to see what it translates Hadi Kharaghani's Homepage (uleth.ca): "At the twilight, a moon appeared in the sky; Then it landed on earth to look at me. Like a hawk stealing a bird at the time of prey; That moon stole me and rushed back into the sky. I looked at myself, I did not see me anymore; For in that moon, my body turned as fine as soul. The nine spheres disappeared in that moon; The ship of my existence drowned in that sea." Rumi's Divan Shams Tabrizi, 649:1-3,5
Saber Posted January 23, 2023 Author Posted January 23, 2023 And not forget to mention that the translation of Attars second line is also done wrong by google not because it didnt understand the sentence but rather that it should be a question mark in the middle of the sentence making it like this : It came from basar ? noo. .... no way ......it is from the mobser.........but as the were no question marks 700 years ago the translation took it completely reversed......
sethoflagos Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 8 minutes ago, Genady said: The nine spheres disappeared in that moon; The ship of my existence drowned in that sea." Rumi's Divan Shams Tabrizi, 649:1-3,5 This is a reference to Ptolemy's celestial spheres that the Islamic world of the time was well acquainted with. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_spheres
Genady Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 1 minute ago, sethoflagos said: This is a reference to Ptolemy's celestial spheres that the Islamic world of the time was well acquainted with. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_spheres Exactly. Also here: 9 Spheres of Heaven (Dante's Paradiso) - History Lists
Saber Posted January 23, 2023 Author Posted January 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, Genady said: Hadi Kharaghani's Homepage (uleth.ca): "At the twilight, a moon appeared in the sky; Then it landed on earth to look at me. Like a hawk stealing a bird at the time of prey; That moon stole me and rushed back into the sky. I looked at myself, I did not see me anymore; For in that moon, my body turned as fine as soul. The nine spheres disappeared in that moon; The ship of my existence drowned in that sea." Rumi's Divan Shams Tabrizi, 649:1-3,5 The line that says : the nine spheres disappeared in that moon is not translated correctly in that one either..... Its the nine Orbiting objects.......like the google that translated it into carousels.......not nine spheres....also in order to comprehend the meaning of that says the those things have cam from one origin and not as it has translated disappeared in that moon ...........you have to be persian and you have to know persian poetry well enough ass well to understand exactly what each phrase means in each place as i said many words can have some different meanings......and in every sentence according to the thing that the poet is speaking about..........the reader has to find out what that word means here him/her self........ But the tings that i wanted to mention @ first was that he know that the planets were 9 ..........that can be read even in the translation you offered also.......... Note that the other lines of that translation also have some miss understandings too.... 12 minutes ago, sethoflagos said: This is a reference to Ptolemy's celestial spheres that the Islamic world of the time was well acquainted with. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_spheres 9 minutes ago, Genady said: Exactly. Also here: 9 Spheres of Heaven (Dante's Paradiso) - History Lists Thanx.......
Genady Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 Like any other religion I know, you translate and interpret ancient texts any way you like. BTW, by today's definition of planet in astronomy, there are 8 planets in the Solar system, not 9. And if you count Pluto as a planet, then there are more than 9.
studiot Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Genady said: Like any other religion I know, you translate and interpret ancient texts any way you like. BTW, by today's definition of planet in astronomy, there are 8 planets in the Solar system, not 9. And if you count Pluto as a planet, then there are more than 9. Please elaborate. Also our word for planet come from the ancient Greek meaning 'wanderer'. These referred to heavenly objects that did not track nightly across the sky the way the remote stars do, but moved in an apparently erratic way. There are many objects in the sky that do this and in the clear middle eastern skies more can readily be seen. So it depends upon what your poets meant by planets. Edited January 23, 2023 by studiot
Genady Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 1 minute ago, studiot said: Please elaborate. There are other bodies in the Kuiper belt of size and density similar to Pluto. They are as 'planets' as is Pluto.
studiot Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 1 minute ago, Genady said: There are other bodies in the Kuiper belt of size and density similar to Pluto. They are as 'planets' as is Pluto. That was not my understanding from the results of the New Horizon's spaceprobe.
Saber Posted January 23, 2023 Author Posted January 23, 2023 14 minutes ago, Genady said: Like any other religion I know, you translate and interpret ancient texts any way you like. BTW, by today's definition of planet in astronomy, there are 8 planets in the Solar system, not 9. And if you count Pluto as a planet, then there are more than 9. the thing you mentioned that i can interpret the text as the way i like .....yes i agree with that
Genady Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 Just now, studiot said: That was not my understanding from the results of the New Horizon's spaceprobe. That what I've learned from the CalTech course, The Solar System Science. That was about 7 years ago. Also, e.g., in Pluto - Wikipedia: Quote It is the largest known trans-Neptunian object by volume, by a small margin, but is slightly less massive than Eris. Like other Kuiper belt objects, Pluto is made primarily of ice and rock and is much smaller than the inner planets. And, e.g., in Kuiper Belt Objects: Facts about the Kuiper Belt & KBOs | Space: Quote According to the International Astronomical Union (IAU)’s 2006 definition, a planet must be large enough to clear its neighborhood of debris. Pluto and Eris, surrounded by the Kuiper Belt, had clearly failed to do so. As a result, in 2006, Pluto, Eris, and the largest asteroid, Ceres, were reclassified by the IAU as dwarf planets. Two more dwarf planets, Haumea and Makemake, were discovered in the Kuiper Belt in 2008.
studiot Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 OK so they are not planets, they are dwarf planets. How much did the snouts at the trough receive for that leap forward in science ? Can I have a similar amount for reclassifying the tortoise shell as a partial shell ?
Saber Posted January 23, 2023 Author Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, studiot said: Please elaborate. Also our word for planet come from the ancient Greek meaning 'wanderer'. These referred to heavenly objects that did not track nightly across the sky the way the remote stars do, but moved in an apparently erratic way. There are many objects in the sky that do this and in the clear middle eastern skies more can readily be seen. So it depends upon what your poets meant by planets. If i want to translate the thing and word he used to describe them i have to say : he said wheels of the ferris wheel or carousels that are in the sky so ....in fact we can have many interpretations from them as Mr. Genady said...... Edited January 23, 2023 by Saber
Genady Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) Back in the USSR, there were "academic institutions" whose purpose of existence was interpreting old texts and records in a way that proves that everything has been first invented by Russians. They did a good job. People used to say, jokingly, "Russia, the birthplace of elephants..." Edited January 23, 2023 by Genady
Genady Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 2 hours ago, studiot said: OK so they are not planets, they are dwarf planets. It doesn't matter how they are classified. The point that pertains to this thread is that the number of 'planets' known today is not 9.
Moontanman Posted January 23, 2023 Posted January 23, 2023 At the time of those writings the sun and moon were considered planets, but the earth was not and some even counted venus and mercury twice as evening and morning stars. We know now that the sun and moon are not planets and that mercury and venus are only one planet not four. I'm not seeing anything profound in the poetry than can be interpreted as accurate discriptions of the heavens. What was the definition of planets at the time is also important, if I understand correctly only objects that moved against the background of stars counted but now days we only count 8 planets. I'm not sure if there is a definition of planet that would suggest only 9 objects are planets. 1
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