Homophobia, nature or nurture?

[iNow]

30 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I think he was after a different question on what degree a distaste for homosexual activity (and by extension, any invitations to such) could be genetically mediated.  It's really a different question than the social ethics of how one should respond to unwanted advances from a same sex person.

Perhaps. My hope was more that HE would clarify what HE thinks, but I do appreciate your attempts to mediate. 

[Gian]

On 1/24/2023 at 3:31 PM, iNow said:

No. Infants don't pop out of the womb hating others for who they love

I suppose the sort of homophobia I mean is repulsion rather than hatred. I heard of an experiment once with newborn kittens who were found to have an immediate fear of heights. This is not irrational of course, but would seem to be inborn. 

With phobias, which are defined as irrational, eg arachnophobia (I think I'm right there are no dangerous spiders in Western Europe) these are thought to be socially constructed. 

I have my own irrational repulsions, and children of course love saying "Eeeugh!"

[Genady]

How does one separate the "nature" from the "nurture"?

[geordief]

3 hours ago, Gian said:

I suppose the sort of homophobia I mean is repulsion rather than hatred. I heard of an experiment once with newborn kittens who were found to have an immediate fear of heights. This is not irrational of course, but would seem to be inborn. 

With phobias, which are defined as irrational, eg arachnophobia (I think I'm right there are no dangerous spiders in Western Europe) these are thought to be socially constructed. 

I have my own irrational repulsions, and children of course love saying "Eeeugh!"

I think we all have a "repulsion/attraction" to the "other"

I think that must be an instinct that goes back to the beginning of our species(maybe all species)

 

I remember my very first encounter with the idea of homosexuality.It was ,as must be more than common a conversation between adolescent friends about a story one of us had heard.

 

I found it incredible that such people existed  and the conversation  turned into banter as to whether we were "one of them"

A horrifying idea since how could you know? (obviously you denied it)

 

It was the possible ostracisation that  gave it its force.

 

Ironic since I quite soon come to like the idea of being other and learned to look down on those I thought were conformist (esp the bourgeois which "thankfully" I was not  even though I still assumed I was middle class -again ,ironically I wasn't)

1 hour ago, Genady said:

How does one separate the "nature" from the "nurture"?

I think one cannot.

Edited February 1, 2023 by geordief

[Genady]

17 minutes ago, geordief said:

1 hour ago, Genady said:

How does one separate the "nature" from the "nurture"?

I think one cannot.

I agree with this.

Re homophobia, I still don't have any idea why straight people have any feelings about some people being homosexual. This is after many years of being adult straight male. I also discovered the existence of homosexuals the way described above, and my reaction was then, and still is, so what. I was shocked to discover that there was a law (in the former USSR) against it and that people go to jail for it. I could not understand it then and I still don't understand, why would anybody care.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Genady

[swansont]

30 minutes ago, Genady said:

I still don't have any idea why straight people have any feelings about some people being homosexual

An obvious candidate is cultural pressure to conform to some “normal” behavior that is defined by the majority. (Which cuts down on challenges to authority, so it’s often perpetuated by that authority, even if they behave “abnormally” in private)

[Genady]

9 minutes ago, swansont said:

An obvious candidate is cultural pressure to conform to some “normal” behavior that is defined by the majority. (Which cuts down on challenges to authority, so it’s often perpetuated by that authority, even if they behave “abnormally” in private)

There still is a gap in my understanding:

I can feel this pressure on me, but why would I feel the pressure on others?

[iNow]

4 hours ago, Gian said:

I heard of an experiment once with newborn kittens who were found to have an immediate fear of heights. This is not irrational of course, but would seem to be inborn. 

Yes. You already said the same thing a week ago and it's already been addressed:

 

On 1/25/2023 at 5:58 AM, Gian said:

seem to remember experiments with newborn kittens showing that they had an immediate fear of heights and could "read" 3D space, before they'd had time to be taught anything.

On 1/25/2023 at 9:25 AM, iNow said:

Which is irrelevant to my point since I never argued organisms are born with minds in a tabula rasa state. We are not purely blank canvases upon birth, but we’re also quite likely not born hating others for who they love.

 

Thanks btw for all the neg reps.

[geordief]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

I agree with this.

Re homophobia, I still don't have any idea why straight people have any feelings about some people being homosexual. This is after many years of being adult straight male. I also discovered the existence of homosexuals the way described above, and my reaction was then, and still is, so what. I was shocked to discover that there was a law (in the former USSR) against it and that people go to jail for it. I could not understand it then and I still don't understand, why would anybody care.

Well,I was brought  up in England at the time was it was being decriminalised.At school my French teacher used ( it was said) to get treatment  for this.(he did organize "tea parties"  for us pupils and we used to mock him for this (and those who accepted the invitation).

But we did mock every single teacher we thought we could get away with doing so.

 

Teaching in our class was almost a paramilitary  exercise.

 

This was (still is?) a time when  after my sister was dumped by her boyfriend my brother's friend suggested we go around and beat him up.

Edited February 1, 2023 by geordief

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

Re homophobia, I still don't have any idea why straight people have any feelings about some people being homosexual.

Straight people shouldn't have any feelings one way or the other, so if they do, perhaps they aren't as straight as they thought. If attraction is a spectrum, isn't someone who claims to be 100% straight an extremist?

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Genady said:

There still is a gap in my understanding:

I can feel this pressure on me, but why would I feel the pressure on others?

If you had an irrational fear that it’s somehow a contagious condition, or that its mere presence is harmful, amped up by certain societal pressures, you might.

There are men that blame attraction to (and sometimes the resulting assault on) women on the women. This seems to be under a similar umbrella 

[Ken Fabian]

9 hours ago, Genady said:

How does one separate the "nature" from the "nurture"?

Different cultures can be used as examples perhaps; not all have had long running prohibitions against homosexuality. It is more acceptable around here now but it is more likely people are aware of each other's sexual orientiation. Seems like that will make unwanted advances less likely. The extent to which observing or contemplating sexual acts trigger revulsion? It seems to me most ordinary sexual acts can trigger revulsion; being aroused changes perceptions of them. Oral sex? Gross! When not aroused. Mmm, yeah, when aroused. 

I personally think homophobia is learned. To what extent personal experiences - unwanted advances - might cause homophobia would vary; I don't see how advances that stop when you say no would be traumatic. But persistent unwanted advances can be. Sexual subjugation and rape would do it. Combine a bad experience with the too human inclination to typecast and it can become homophobia; a homosexual did bad things to you, therefore all homosexuals are bad, in similar ways to racism and other bigotry often pivots on individual experiences. A black person robs you, black people are criminals. A white person rejects your job application because you aren't white; white people are racists. An indigenous person kills a colonist; retribution is taken against the tribe and is considered justified.

[TheVat]

8 hours ago, Genady said:

I agree with this.

Re homophobia, I still don't have any idea why straight people have any feelings about some people being homosexual. This is after many years of being adult straight male. I also discovered the existence of homosexuals the way described above, and my reaction was then, and still is, so what. I was shocked to discover that there was a law (in the former USSR) against it and that people go to jail for it. I could not understand it then and I still don't understand, why would anybody care.

I think it reflects some personal insecurity about their own sexuality.  And conformity (as @swansont referred to) is often felt more strongly by those harbor doubts about themselves.

Forming a harsh response to someone else's sexuality gives them a way to minimize their own anxiety and perhaps direct self-loathing outward to others. 

I've noticed Putin, who is quite homophobic, does other things that show adequacy issues.  Maybe it was hard for him growing up and being a short and delicately-chinned man.  

I doubt anyone is 100% anything.  Though seeming straight myself, I remember seeing Robert Redford in "The Sting" and thinking okay I get what the fuss is about, the dude is hot.  I wasn't going to switch from AC to DC or anything, but I could see the potential for a man-crush.  Ditto Paul Newman.  

 

[mistermack]

7 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Straight people shouldn't have any feelings one way or the other

That's ludicrous. As if there is a book somewhere listing what feelings people should or shouldn't have.  

7 hours ago, Phi for All said:

so if they do, perhaps they aren't as straight as they thought.

So now you're blaming closet gays for homophobic feelings. And the only people who are not homophobic are genuine straights. Is this a new kind of logic? 

My own experience of homophobic feelings is that it's a fairly natural inherited trait, brought about by our ability to imagine scenarios, and put yourself in another's shoes. 

My brother is three years older than me, and when I was a kid, (a long time ago), I knew nothing of sex, other than there were two kinds, and they were quite different. That was as far as I had ever contemplated the matter. 

Then one day, my brother mentioned homosexuals, ( I was probably about 8 to 10 at the time ) and I asked him what that was. He started to tell me, and I flatly refused to believe him. That spurred him on, and he commenced to go into great detail about their activities, with me shouting at him to shut up, that he was a liar, and eventually I was standing with my fingers in my ears shouting 'la la la la la' at the top of my voice, to drown him out. He thought it was great fun. To me, it was so horrible, what he was saying, that I had to try to shout him down.

Of course, I quickly found out that he wasn't inventing it. But that was my own natural, unprimed reaction to my first ever information about homosexuality. I don't think it was nurture. I'd never heard of it before, and my parents never ever spoke about sex of any sort. I'm not sure I even knew, or cared, about where babies came from, at the time. That's a Catholic upbringing for you. 

[Genady]

44 minutes ago, mistermack said:

( I was probably about 8 to 10 at the time )

When my children were 8 - 10 they were absolutely disgusted by people smoking and sweared to never smoke in their life. Guess what happened when they were 14 - 16 ...

[iNow]

2 hours ago, mistermack said:

I don't think it was nurture.

And yet despite you now here again putting your fingers in your ears and saying “la-la-la-la-la-la I can’t hear you,”it almost certainly was. 

[zapatos]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

My own experience of homophobic feelings is that it's a fairly natural inherited trait

Citation please.

[TheVat]

16 hours ago, mistermack said:

Of course, I quickly found out that he wasn't inventing it. But that was my own natural, unprimed reaction to my first ever information about homosexuality. I don't think it was nurture. I'd never heard of it before, and my parents never ever spoke about sex of any sort. I'm not sure I even knew, or cared, about where babies came from, at the time. That's a Catholic upbringing for you. 

I would find it difficult to discern what is "natural, unprimed" in my own experience especially at that age.  Children are often not aware of all that influences them.  The fact that you were (a) in a Catholic family, and (b) had an older brother who was likely trying to present  matters in a way to gross you out (had he described heterosexual sex to you, he might have gotten a similar response?), suggests that your reaction was not as "natural" as you saw it.  

[CharonY]

Considering how much a person has learned by that age, including one or more languages, and many other unnatural things (wearing clothes, hygiene, culture-specific mannerisms). Moreover, "natural" reactions can also have learned components. Imprinting is such an example, for example (though perhaps less well studied in humans compared to other animals).

[zapatos]

If it is inherited I wonder why so many people are NOT homophobes. Or how you can 'grow out' of your genetic predisposition to be a homophobe.

[mistermack]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

I would find it difficult to discern what is "natural, unprimed"

I don't. I tried to be clear that I was unaware of homosexuality, and had very little knowledge or interest in sex of any kind. I wasn't claiming that I had lived in a vacuum for nine years. I would stand by my opinion that revulsion or repulsion of homosexuality stems from the human ability to mentally put yourself in someone else's shoes. 

I very much doubt if I would have reacted the same, if my brother had described lesbianism to me. Firstly, because my imagination wouldn't put me in their position, and secondly, because he wouldn't be talking about bumhole action, which was the grossest part for me at the time. Mind you, the very idea of kissing or being kissed by a man was also pretty gross to me. But then, our family wouldn't even hug back in those days. It just wasn't part of normal behaviour. We do more now, but it still feels unnatural to me. Babies wives and girlfriends excepted.

At the time, I was in junior school, and the kid who sat next to me in class, I found out years later, turned out homosexual. He was ok, there was no hint of it at the time, and he probably didn't know, if he was as ignorant as me. It's ironic that his reaction would probably have been just the same as mine, at the time. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by mistermack

[Genady]

Can anybody suggest a selective advantage provided by a homophobic trait? I can see a disadvantage in spending energy on competing with non-rivals.

[mistermack]

10 minutes ago, Genady said:

Can anybody suggest a selective advantage provided by a homophobic trait? I can see a disadvantage in spending energy on competing with non-rivals.

I think the there is a selective advantage. Not directly but indirectly. Variation is hugely important in most characteristics, and the price of variation is to have some individuals where the variation has gone too far. I think that's what produces gays, and many other traits that don't seem to have any genetic  advantage. The variation is so important for the population, that it outweighs any disadvantages. I'm speculating, it's not something I've read.

[Phi for All]

19 hours ago, mistermack said:

That's ludicrous. As if there is a book somewhere listing what feelings people should or shouldn't have.

No, as if there's no reason for them to be involved emotionally.

19 hours ago, mistermack said:

So now you're blaming closet gays for homophobic feelings. And the only people who are not homophobic are genuine straights. Is this a new kind of logic?

I was going to ask you the same thing, is this new logic? I think you have a different definition of "closet gay" than I do. I don't consider someone who desperately identifies as straight because they're afraid of being homosexual "in the closet". I call it being "in denial". Someone who is forced to identify as straight out of fear of being oppressed for their homosexuality is hiding in the closet. The first one is homophobic, the second one is afraid of repercussions.

 

[Genady]

3 hours ago, mistermack said:

I think that's what produces gays

Although it is not a selective advantage of being a homosexual, it could explain presence of homosexuals in a population. However, I wonder if there might be a selective advantage of being homophobic. I don't see any, but see rather a disadvantage, which I've mentioned.