Homophobia, nature or nurture?

[geordief]

3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Your truth is a bit weird, though, in context of the rest of our lives, don't you think? If you aren't participating in something, why do you find others enjoyment of it "distasteful", unless you believe they're doing something WRONG? Do you feel that way about anything else people do? If you hate eating fish, do you put down those who enjoy it? Are they doing something "distasteful"? What about people who dress up in cosplay? I've known people who think LARPers and Renaissance Festival fans are weird, and that there's something wrong with them mentally because they're so into fantasy and dressing differently.

That is how I feel about people who do things differently from me.They are wrong. I live in an egocentric world that I have to reason myself out of on a continuous basis

 

😀

[MigL]

5 hours ago, geordief said:

I live in an egocentric world that I have to reason myself out of on a continuous basis

No, you don't.
Apparently the 'new' approach is to have every one else recognize and abide by your 'egocentric' world view.

If I dislike, or find an activity distasteful, I don't engage in that activity.
If I like, or find an activity 'tasteful', I will engage in it.
That seems to apply to most people ( not just me ), heterosexual males and females, as well as homosexual males and females.
The only ones 'on the fence' about their likes and dislikes, are bisexuals.

Who is anyone else to tell me what I should like or dislike ?
Isn't that the problem homosexuals have had until recently ?
Maybe 'tolerance' implies everyone has a choice as to what, or who, they like.

Edited February 15, 2023 by MigL

[iNow]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Who is anyone else to tell me what I should like or dislike ?

You can like or dislike anything you want. Quit being so melodramatic. 

The point is we can tell you how certain of your dislikes are outdated and need to be softened, if not abandoned entirely. 

People used to dislike white women being with black men (some people still do). 

Some used to dislike Jews (again, some people still do).

Some people used to dislike letting Italians and Irish into the country. Some disliked the Polish. 

Dislike of homosexuals and transsexuals and acceptance of both is just the latest in a long string of human hatreds and small minded ignorance. 

Some dislikes just need to go away and die. Some of us dislike how long that seems to be taking and are maybe trying to help accelerate the pace. 

[MigL]

Melodramatic ? 
Moi ?

And again, there is a vast diffeence between a personal dislike, or disgust even, of specific actions  ( or sexual activities ), and a dislike of groups of people ( who may or may not engage in those activities ).

I can tell the difference.

[iNow]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

Melodramatic ? 
Moi ?

Oui. C’est vrais, quelquefois

Moi aussie, mais presque jamais.

[Intoscience]

19 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Your truth is a bit weird, though, in context of the rest of our lives, don't you think? If you aren't participating in something, why do you find others enjoyment of it "distasteful", unless you believe they're doing something WRONG? Do you feel that way about anything else people do? If you hate eating fish, do you put down those who enjoy it? Are they doing something "distasteful"? What about people who dress up in cosplay? I've known people who think LARPers and Renaissance Festival fans are weird, and that there's something wrong with them mentally because they're so into fantasy and dressing differently.

Nope, you are conflating my distaste of an action with prejudice towards a person or particular group who may engage in that action.

I never said it was right or wrong, I just said that I personally find the act of same sex gender sex distasteful, repulsive (or whatever term you want to use) whether it be to imagine, watch or participate in.

I also said with sincerity and honesty that I was trying to understand why I find it distasteful, what is the reason/root cause behind my distaste.   

If other people want to enjoy such pleasures for themselves that's fine by me and I would show no more or less respect regardless.

You seem to be implying that my personal distaste for a certain sexual act automatically makes me prejudice against the people that may engage in such.  This is just not true, I have both Gay and Bi friends who I care for and respect very dearly. I just don't wish to imagine, watch or engage in their personal sexual activities.   

8 hours ago, iNow said:

The point is we can tell you how certain of your dislikes are outdated and need to be softened, if not abandoned entirely

I'm willing to try and understand why and if my dislikes are outdated. But is this really so important provided that those dislikes are not prejudice towards another.

For as long as I can remember I have never liked the taste of coconut. I don't recall ever been influenced or traumatised which may cause this dislike. I have even tried eating it on a number of occasions over the years and still found it very distasteful. My partner recently purchased some coconut milk for me to try. I kept an open mind and fingers crossed that with age my pallet had since changed and that the taste would be ok. I tried to not have any preconceptions or expectations and took a sip. Instantly I found it repulsive. I tried again the next day and again the following. Thinking that overtime I might come to at least tolerate it, I challenged myself to keep trying until it became an acquired taste (learned). No joy, I just find it repulsive, no reason to do so, but with every reason to try not to. Is my distaste for coconut innate?

I'm certainly not prejudice towards people who find it tasty.     

Edited February 16, 2023 by Intoscience
spelling

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I'm willing to try and understand why and if my dislikes are outdated. But is this really so important provided that those dislikes are not prejudice towards another

This sounds to me like a distinction without a difference, but perhaps my definition of prejudice isn’t as restrictive as yours. 

2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I never said it was right or wrong, I just said that I personally find the act of same sex gender sex distasteful, repulsive …

Repulsive is such a strong word that prejudice seems to fit. 

2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I have never liked the taste of coconut. I don't recall ever been influenced or traumatised which may cause this dislike. I have even tried eating it on a number of occasions over the years and still found it very distasteful. My partner recently purchased some coconut milk for me to try. I kept an open mind and fingers crossed that with age my pallet had since changed and that the taste would be ok. I tried to not have any preconceptions or expectations and took a sip. Instantly I found it repulsive

Unless you’re inserting gay sex into your mouth and swallowing it, I’m unsure of the relevance. 

[Intoscience]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

This sounds to me like a distinction without a difference, but perhaps my definition of prejudice isn’t as restrictive as yours

I'm not sure what you mean but, ok

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Repulsive is such a strong word that prejudice seems to fit.

The use of the term distasteful was raised by another member. I agree that "repulsive" is a stronger word so not fitting, but prejudice? Not sure how this would be the same unless you are using it as a blanket term 

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Unless you’re inserting gay sex into your mouth and swallowing it, I’m unsure of the relevance. 

The relevance being that I find the act of gay sex distasteful, in that I don't enjoy watching, imagining or engaging in such. Though admittedly this may be learned rather than innate or from experience in engagement. I also find the act of tasting & or smelling coconut distasteful and even repulsive to some extent which seems to be innate rather than learned, though i'm open to suggestions.  

Either way I have no prejudice towards people who engage in the act of gay sex or the act of eating coconuts. Provided of course that I'm not expected to change my tastes to agree with someone else's just because its different.

Also why should a personal taste for or against have any particular status? I don't like coconuts or gay sex, you may like either, both or non. That's your prerogative, and who am I to judge what you like or dislike and who are you to judge me on the same?   

Edited February 16, 2023 by Intoscience
spelling

[Phi for All]

12 hours ago, iNow said:

You can like or dislike anything you want. Quit being so melodramatic. 

The point is we can tell you how certain of your dislikes are outdated and need to be softened, if not abandoned entirely. 

People used to dislike white women being with black men (some people still do). 

Some used to dislike Jews (again, some people still do).

Some people used to dislike letting Italians and Irish into the country. Some disliked the Polish. 

Dislike of homosexuals and transsexuals and acceptance of both is just the latest in a long string of human hatreds and small minded ignorance. 

Some dislikes just need to go away and die. Some of us dislike how long that seems to be taking and are maybe trying to help accelerate the pace. 

Really well said, and clearly supports that this is something we learned, we practiced, and can now change if we want to. It may be natural for any animal to fear something different, but humans seem to have enough intelligence to reason past it, if we want to. 

[Intoscience]

It seems to me that people maybe implying its ok for a person to enjoy gay sex and that person to find hetero sex distasteful. But its not ok the other way round and if you sate such you are prejudice in a negative way even labelled homophobic. 

Or am I missing something? 

Should I be forced or educated to change my personal tastes because my tastes are found offensive to someone else? Even if my personal tastes are not prejudice towards a person or group but towards an act?  

15 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Really well said, and clearly supports that this is something we learned, we practiced, and can now change if we want to. It may be natural for any animal to fear something different, but humans seem to have enough intelligence to reason past it, if we want to. 

Yes, but iNow is implying that a distaste for a particular sexual act automatically prejudices that person against another person or group and even worse implies that that person dislikes or even hates that person or group because of their sexual preferences. 

This is just not true.

I dislike the act of gay sex (learned or innate is irrelevant), I do however like and respect many gay people. 

If I feel strongly enough the want to understand or even attempt to change my dislike, and how this came to be (which I'm genuinely interested in) then I would want to investigate whether its a learned or innate trait. it has nothing to do with prejudice against people who feel different from me.  

Edited February 16, 2023 by Intoscience
spelling

[iNow]

36 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

It seems to me that people maybe implying its ok for a person to enjoy gay sex and that person to find hetero sex distasteful.

Which people? Can you quote where they did this?

36 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Should I be forced or educated to change my personal tastes

Nobody is forcing anything. How would we? Weird comment dude. 

37 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

iNow is implying that a distaste for a particular sexual act automatically prejudices that person against another person or group and even worse implies that that person dislikes or even hates that person or group because of their sexual preferences.

Is there a good reason for your distaste? As noted above, lots of people also used to find interracial couples distasteful. There’s a reason that was silly, and the same applies IMO to distaste for homosexual activities.  

[TheVat]

39 minutes ago, iNow said:

 

Is there a good reason for your distaste? As noted above, lots of people also used to find interracial couples distasteful. There’s a reason that was silly, and the same applies IMO to distaste for homosexual activities.  

This being a philosophy thread, I feel it's worth asking if there is much mileage to be had in determining if distaste (i.e. aesthetic preference) should be grounded in reason.   

The chat still veers into conflating tastes and prejudices, which are not the same thing.  

I don't want my face peed on.  Not my taste.  But I have no prejudicial attitude towards those who do.  Nor is there a compelling reason to remedy my distaste or determine if it has a rational basis.  Why does @Intoscience have to remedy what seems to be a personal taste that has no adverse effect on society?  If this is an ethics thread, that potential effect on others, or lack of, would be the relevant matter.   

[zapatos]

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Nope, you are conflating my distaste of an action with prejudice towards a person or particular group who may engage in that action.

 

After reading through this part of the discussion I have to agree with you. People feel the way they feel about things. One can examine the reasoning behind those feelings or not. But as long as those feelings do not result in bias against another I don't see why anyone would think there is any harm in having those feelings.

Even if the distaste of coconuts originated with a deep born hatred of Pacific Islanders because one of them stole a ball from you when you were a kid, if you currently have no bias against Pacific Islanders I see no great benefit in examining if the lingering dislike of coconuts comes from the original stolen ball episode, or if it is due to the fact that coconut has kind of a gross texture and aftertaste. You are under no ethical or moral obligation to work toward eliminating your distaste of coconuts.

[Phi for All]

52 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Yes, but iNow is implying that a distaste for a particular sexual act automatically prejudices that person against another person or group and even worse implies that that person dislikes or even hates that person or group because of their sexual preferences. 

This is just not true.

I dislike the act of gay sex (learned or innate is irrelevant), I do however like and respect many gay people. 

If I feel strongly enough the want to understand or even attempt to change my dislike, and how this came to be (which I'm genuinely interested in) then I would want to investigate whether its a learned or innate trait. it has nothing to do with prejudice against people who feel different from me.  

It sounds like we're working with different definitions of "prejudice". If you're judging a particular sex act with distaste, and assuming you've never actually engaged in said act, aren't you pre-judging it to be distasteful? Or is this a binary problem, where sex acts are only either enjoyable or distasteful?

I have my own prejudices, and I try to fight them when I think they're keeping me from understanding. It's a struggle, based on my upbringing in the Midwest US, to overcome my kneejerk reactions to certain people and things. But it's worthwhile if it makes me more adaptable and accepting of diversity (which seems to be a strong trait in nature in general). I've acquired each of them for various reasonable (to me at the time) reasons. None of them were innate. 

[zapatos]

23 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It sounds like we're working with different definitions of "prejudice". If you're judging a particular sex act with distaste, and assuming you've never actually engaged in said act, aren't you pre-judging it to be distasteful?

What is your definition of "judging"? I've always felt "judging" required a conscious decision, whereas "distaste" is not necessarily arrived at with forethought. IOW, "distaste of a sex act" doesn't feel like a "judgement" to me.

[TheVat]

42 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

t sounds like we're working with different definitions of "prejudice". If you're judging a particular sex act with distaste, and assuming you've never actually engaged in said act, aren't you pre-judging it to be distasteful?

I think the distinction between prejudice and taste has been pretty clear here.  If I judge someone taking a shit on a tossed salad with distaste, I don't have to try a bite to make certain of my judgment.  Someone may find any act distasteful for them personally on whatever basis they wish, e.g. an extrapolation from their own aesthetic preference.  If I don't care for body parts shoved up my asshole, that's not a prejudice against others, just my personal preference.  Why would someone who is into that care what my preferences are, when I don't care what theirs are?  This just seems like a fairly simple ethical concept to grasp.  Everyone just minds their own business in the boudoir.  Easy peasy.  

[geordief]

5 minutes ago, TheVat said:

I think the distinction between prejudice and taste has been pretty clear here.  If I judge someone taking a shit on a tossed salad with distaste, I don't have to try a bite to make certain of my judgment.  Someone may find any act distasteful for them personally on whatever basis they wish, e.g. an extrapolation from their own aesthetic preference.  If I don't care for body parts shoved up my asshole, that's not a prejudice against others, just my personal preference.  Why would someone who is into that care what my preferences are, when I don't care what theirs are?  This just seems like a fairly simple ethical concept to grasp.  Everyone just minds their own business in the boudoir.  Easy peasy.  

Hey ,I am starting to find this thread  a bit distasteful(and how do we define "tossed"?)

😀

[TheVat]

6 minutes ago, geordief said:

Hey ,I am starting to find this thread  a bit distasteful(and how do we define "tossed"?)

😀

Haha!  With the preparation I described, perhaps "into the compost pile."  

(weird nutritional science aside:  for Caesarean babies, there is now an emerging line of evidence that such a salad, if the fecal donor is a parent with good digestive health, might have healthful benefit to their developing intestinal microflora colony)

[MigL]

Absolutely right, INow and Phi.
Heterosexuals should stop disliking same gender sex.
And homosexuals should like opposite gender sex and stop being so prejudiced.

5 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Really well said, and clearly supports that this is something we learned, we practiced, and can now change if we want to. It may be natural for any animal to fear something different, but humans seem to have enough intelligence to reason past it, if we want to. 

After all, these are learned behaviors  as Phi states above, and can change if we want to.
Except, I would have never thought Phi to be a supporter of Conversion Therapy.

( logical inconsistency much ? )

Edited February 16, 2023 by MigL

[iNow]

We all have our own preferences, myself included. Some of these are hetero-normative and accepted by culture, others are not hetero-normative and thus get shunned by culture... at least until the holdouts eventually die off and go away.

Part of where I'm struggling here, however, is with the examples being used. In everyone's attempt to make themselves better understood, you're choosing very prejudicial comparisons.

I mean, don't me wrong. If all you're saying is, "yeah, that's just not my cuppa tea," then super! Good on ya! I couldn't care less, and guess what? It's not my cuppa tea, either!!

 

But that's NOT what is being said. Instead, we're seeing non-hetero sexual acts between a same sex couple getting compared to:

- Pissing on someones face

- Shitting on a salad and being asked to eat it

- Shoving inanimate objects into ones asshole

- Spitting, coughing without covering, picking ones nose, and scratching ones balls

- Mental illness, disabled, defective minds, nasty... all right here just in this ONE thread! We've got scores of them here all doing the same thing...

 

Now magnify that across all interactions homosexuals are having every single day of their lives... all just to be accepted for who they are.

And you know what chaps my ass even more? You DON'T feel this way about "homosexuality." No... You've probably beaten your baloney pony more than once at the thought of two girls being intimate together, because that's about POWER.

It's only when two dudes do to each other some of the exact same things dudes often do with dudettes (butt sex and blow jobs are hardly limited to homosexuals, my friends)... it's only THEN that you suddenly magically have a "disgust" problem.

It's not the act you find distasteful since it's fine when its opposite sex couples engage in it. It's the same sex couple, specifically the males, that you just can't bring yourselves to accept.

I don't care if you get hung up on the word prejudiced or if it causes you to feel some cognitive dissonance with the "good person" narrative you have in your self-identity. It IS prejudiced, especially since it's NOT an amygdala-level olfactory response like the way you feel drinking coconut water being described here. 

It's learned, and thus can be unlearned. Extinguished like a bad smoking habit.

Edited February 16, 2023 by iNow

[zapatos]

12 minutes ago, iNow said:

It IS prejudiced, especially since it's NOT an amygdala-level olfactory response like the way you feel drinking coconut water being described here. 

The show Fear Factor was popular because it showed people doing things that others found 'distasteful', or whatever word we want to use. For example eating insects. Is that being prejudiced in some way? How is that different from finding gay, male sex distasteful.

For the record, I fully admit to not enjoying the sight of two men kissing, whereas I do enjoy seeing two women kissing. I don't see how that has to do with power, nor how that makes me prejudiced. Feels more like a specific sexual preference for me. Just as some people like seeing women in high heels squishing bugs, which also feels distasteful to me without me being prejudiced.

[TheVat]

14 minutes ago, iNow said:

Part of where I'm struggling here, however, is with the examples being used. In everyone's attempt to make themselves better understood, you're choosing very prejudicial comparisons...

But that's NOT what is being said. Instead, we're seeing non-hetero sexual acts between a same sex couple getting compared to:

- Pissing on someones face

- Shitting on a salad and being asked to eat it

- Shoving inanimate objects into ones asshole....

 

 The examples are just used to underscore that some things some people enjoy are gross to others.  No one is saying "X is equally gross as Z" in some disparaging way  AFAICT.   Indeed that's why I posted the example earlier about heterosexual fondling on the Quad, specifically to point out there are many behaviors, including hetero, where I think "getting a room" is a great idea.

You are extracting something prejudicial that is not (for my posts anyway) at all there.  And I would caution against confidence regarding your knowledge of what's in my head or anyone else's.

I think @zapatos has just further clarified the distinction between distaste and prejudice.  

 

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

For the record, I fully admit to not enjoying the sight of two men kissing, whereas I do enjoy seeing two women kissing. I don't see how that has to do with power, nor how that makes me prejudiced. Feels more like a specific sexual preference for me. Just as some people like seeing women in high heels squishing bugs, which also feels distasteful to me without me being prejudiced.

What does "not enjoying" entail? Do you simply look away and not think about it anymore, or do you frown, make a disgusted sound or comment, and avoid those two people no matter what? I think the first behavior is about preference, and the second is about prejudice. 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

What does "not enjoying" entail? Do you simply look away and not think about it anymore, or do you frown, make a disgusted sound or comment, and avoid those two people no matter what? I think the first behavior is about preference, and the second is about prejudice. 

The first. And if it is on television I'll watch it like I'd watch any scene. I think I'd only frown at the thought of doing it myself. 

I agree the second behavior certainly sounds like prejudice.

Thinking back in time to my youth, I believe I used to have a bit of a reaction to the sight of two men kissing. I also heard and told homophobic jokes, although I didn't really give them much thought. I mean it wasn't mean from my perspective, just a stupid joke, kind of like we'd tell Polish, or blonde jokes. It was only after gaining some maturity that I realized what the jokes were really saying. It is quite likely that my earlier strong-ish reaction to two men kissing was a learned behavior that went away with my youth.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

The first. And if it is on television I'll watch it like I'd watch any scene. I think I'd only frown at the thought of doing it myself. 

I agree the second behavior certainly sounds like prejudice.

Thinking back in time to my youth, I believe I used to have a bit of a reaction to the sight of two men kissing. I also heard and told homophobic jokes, although I didn't really give them much thought. I mean it wasn't mean from my perspective, just a stupid joke, kind of like we'd tell Polish, or blonde jokes. It was only after gaining some maturity that I realized what the jokes were really saying. It is quite likely that my earlier strong-ish reaction to two men kissing was a learned behavior that went away with my youth.

I did too until until around 1980 when the New Romantic music came around, which looking back was a fertile ground for non-heterosexul, non-binary, non-macho artistic expressions and became mainstream. There are gay pioneers who who were doing these things before that but they were outliers. They are the ones that took the violence and contempt on their own in times when it was strictly taboo.

Edited February 17, 2023 by StringJunky