Homophobia, nature or nurture?

[dimreepr]

On 8/30/2023 at 1:33 PM, Gian said:

Well because homophobia seems to be an ethical issue, although perhaps I should have put it in one of the Science sections.

I read of an experiment once where newborn kittens were found to have a fear of heights, implying It's something they're born with.  I just wondered if it's true of homophobia

 

Do you know what you should do if you don't like gay marriage?

Don't marry a gay person!!!

That's not really an ethical issue, but I did hear of a scientific paper that suggested cat's only really give a shit, if you don't feed them... 

Maybe that's true of homosexual's. 🥱

[Gian]

On 8/30/2023 at 1:49 PM, iNow said:

Not everything you read on the internet is true

What similarities do you see between fear of snakes and fear of who those snakes happen to love and find sexually appealing?

Phobias are irrational. There are no dangerous species of arachnid in the UK so arachnophobia is irrational.

Two gay men doing what they want with each other in their own home cannot possibly harm anyone else, thus homophobia is irrational.

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Gian said:

Phobias are irrational.

Some are. Some are not. 

2 hours ago, Gian said:

homophobia is irrational.

Correct 

[Chris Sawatsky]

In my opinion, humanity has evolved over several millions of years since reaching the mammal stage. As we evolved we developed instincts to guide us and warn us against behaviour that is not conducive to the well being of humanity. This is because same sex couples cannot procreate. While at evolutionary stages where humanity was vulnerable to extinction because our numbers were so low that a plague or natural disaster could wipe our species out our base instincts warned us against any behaviour that didn't contribute to our future. A combination of instinct, pride and ignorance as well as other Psycho/social factors contribute to homophobia. However I believe our history of persecution towards homosexuality mixed with any childhood homosexual experiences kept secret and resulting in personal shame is a major factor. Remember that our morals were dictated by the church and people were killed or imprisoned for homosexual behaviour and until very recently people were persecuted by society if they admitted being homosexual. Homosexuality is different with men than with woman as many women actively choose to be gay as a result of both many generations of trauma,abuse and repression on top of being used as sex objects. Sex has become the most important aspect of mens relationships with woman and it's obvious. I believe homosexuality is nothing to be ashamed of...Nor is it something to be Proud of...It's just sexuality and Pride is as much a factor with homophobia as it is with Racism and supremacy.

[CharonY]

7 minutes ago, Chris Sawatsky said:

In my opinion, humanity has evolved over several millions of years since reaching the mammal stage.

Good thing that science is not opinions, then. Homosexual behaviour has been observed in many species. Conversely, instincts that somehow senses extinction level events and adjusts behaviour accordingly are unheard of, and likely doesn't work well, considering the number of extinct species.

[mistermack]

On 9/1/2023 at 12:21 AM, Gian said:

Phobias are irrational. There are no dangerous species of arachnid in the UK so arachnophobia is irrational.

Two gay men doing what they want with each other in their own home cannot possibly harm anyone else, thus homophobia is irrational.

Homophobia isn't a real phobia. It's not generally an irrational fear, although that might be the case in some instances. It's mostly  contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear and may sometimes be related to religious beliefs, according to wiki. 

Those emotions may be naturally inherited traits, or instincts, but they aren't rational. But much of what we do isn't rational. 

[Chris Sawatsky]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Good thing that science is not opinions, then. Homosexual behaviour has been observed in many species. Conversely, instincts that somehow senses extinction level events and adjusts behaviour accordingly are unheard of, and likely doesn't work well, considering the number of extinct species.

All extinct species except those humanity killed off, experienced an Extinction event. Everything else evolved out of one form into another. All birds are evolved forms of species alive up to about 65 million years ago when everything larger than a large dog died off while those small enough to go under ground evolved into smaller mammals and birds. Homosexuality is only found in species that are environmentally stressed. In primates dominance behavior is mistaken as homosexuality. The only natural phenomenon witnessed is hermaphroditism where species are both sexes or change from one to the other and this is evolution directly related to survival of the species. What "Gay" animals are you referring to? 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Chris Sawatsky
misprint

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, Chris Sawatsky said:

As we evolved we developed instincts to guide us and warn us against behaviour that is not conducive to the well being of humanity.

Then our instincts kind of suck given all the war, genocide, global warming, pollution, nuclear weapons, etc.

[CharonY]

13 minutes ago, Chris Sawatsky said:

Everything else evolved out of one form into another.

You said that humans evolved from apes, which is simply wrong. Evolution refers to a changes in gene pools over time. Same-sex sexual behaviour in all its forms have been observed in about 1500 species. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-023-41290-x

Species went extinct for a wide range of reasons not just during major extinction events and none of that addresses your assertion that there is some magic instinct preventing it.

[zapatos]

18 minutes ago, Chris Sawatsky said:

What "Gay" animals are you referring to? 

Well, the female ducks in my yard regularly hump each other. Same for the male rabbits.

[iNow]

Homosexuality in the animal kingdom has already been observed in over 1,500 species and we’re still counting. 

Homophobia is just stupid nonsense we should all move beyond, but instead it becomes a lever to drive out the worst most abhorrent behaviors from the most manipulatable people among us. 

[swansont]

41 minutes ago, Chris Sawatsky said:

All extinct species except those humanity killed off, experienced an Extinction event.

If you mean like the K-T impact, then no. Species go extinct all the time by evolving into a new species. Various species of Homo (e.g. Homo habilis, or H. neanderthalensis) are extinct, but there was no “event” that killed them off.

[iNow]

Sometimes species go extinct because other predators become dominant and change the ecosystem. One has to try extremely hard to remain obtuse to these obvious facts 

[e jane aran]

Since homosexuals can't reproduce, how does the trait not get bred out of existence?

This is actually a good question, and some scientists decided to research the topic. It turns out that the sisters of homosexual men have statistically-significantly more children than do women with no homosexual siblings. [sample link] So is there a "gay gene", or is there just a "I really like men!" gene?

😍

[mistermack]

30 minutes ago, e jane aran said:

Since homosexuals can't reproduce, how does the trait not get bred out of existence?

Honestly, where the hell did you get that idea? For a start, there was nothing to prevent homosexual females from reproducing down through our evolution. Having sex with the dominant male was not likely to be optional, a million years ago. 

As far as males go, you will find that a great many homosexuals have children with women, today and in the past. Some men with children even change sex, in later life. So there's not much of an impetus for homosexuality to disappear, even if there was a "gay gene". 

[StringJunky]

If a homosexual man has a child, it doesn't suddenly make him straight.

[iNow]

Also not every trait gets selected for or against. Homosexuality exists. We see it nearly everywhere. The folks with the problem have an agenda or are too indoctrinated to matter much. 

[e jane aran]

6 hours ago, e jane aran said:

Since homosexuals can't reproduce, how does the trait not get bred out of existence?

5 hours ago, mistermack said:

Honestly, where the hell did you get that idea?

How would two men (or two women), absent outside help (adoption, a surragate, a turkey baster and a friend, etc), reproduce?

I was speaking of "reproduction" only in that sense.

Note: I'm a bit invested. My kid would require outside help to be able to give me grandbabies. And I'm fine with that. My kid is an amazing human being! ❤️

[mistermack]

4 minutes ago, e jane aran said:

I was speaking of "reproduction" only in that sense.

No, you were talking about how Homosexuality didn't get bred out of existence. That's what I was responding to. I don't think there's any reason why it would, for the reasons I gave. In any case, I don't believe there is such a thing as a homosexual gene, or a repeatable cluster of genes. I think homosexuality is down to the natural variation, that occurs in almost every characteristic. Sexuality is a grey area, like many other characteristics. Shades of grey across the population, not black or white. 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, e jane aran said:

How would two men (or two women), absent outside help (adoption, a surragate, a turkey baster and a friend, etc), reproduce?

I was speaking of "reproduction" only in that sense.

It would be a man and a woman. It’s still possible for them to reproduce, even if one of them were gay.

 

[StringJunky]

16 minutes ago, swansont said:

It would be a man and a woman. It’s still possible for them to reproduce, even if one of them were gay.

 

They aren't a different species.

[mistermack]

Identical twins often have different sexual attraction. One can be straight, the other gay. This has been scientifically tested. So sexual inclination can't be wholly down to your genetic makeup. So even if a gay gene is discovered in the future, it obviously doesn't work the same on every individual. It could be that one twin got a different dose of hormones in the womb, or just a tiny difference in development of an organ led to a different path in brain development. 

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, e jane aran said:

Since homosexuals can't reproduce, how does the trait not get bred out of existence?

This is actually a good question, and some scientists decided to research the topic. It turns out that the sisters of homosexual men have statistically-significantly more children than do women with no homosexual siblings. [sample link] So is there a "gay gene", or is there just a "I really like men!" gene?

😍

Because it's not a genetic trait, any more than liking football is; for instance.

Quote

Fraternal birth order has been correlated with male sexual orientation, with a significant volume of research finding that the more older brothers a male has from the same mother, the greater the probability he will have a homosexual orientation.

 

[swansont]

13 hours ago, StringJunky said:

They aren't a different species.

Did anyone suggested they were?

13 hours ago, mistermack said:

Identical twins often have different sexual attraction

They can, but it’s not common

“it’s important to point out that recruiting twins with different sexualities is extraordinarily difficult. Researchers estimate that just 0.012% of the population consists of a gay or bisexual person who happens to have an identical twin”

https://kinseyinstitute.org/news-events/news/2019-07-26-twins-sexual-orientation.php#:~:text=If they have the exact,while the other is gay.

[mistermack]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

They can, but it’s not common

It would be amazing if it was common. They have identical genes, an identical gestation period in an identical mother, supplied with identical blood with probably an almost identical hormone regime. So whatever sparks of the difference was always going to be very rare. The fact that it happens at all though, shows that it's not just genetics at work. 

The story of "gay genes" is looking more complicated, it used to be an outright NO if you searched for it, but going by you link, there is some evidence of genetic influence in sexuality. It may be just a case of a statistical tendency arising from certain genetics, rather than an outright cause and effect. 

No ‘gay gene’: Massive study homes in on genetic basis of human sexuality (nature.com) 

This just gives the headlines for free, but it shows the other side of the research coin.