Homophobia, nature or nurture?

[dimreepr]

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

This is very true but stems from things getting conflated, as I keep arguing. 

No it's not, nothing of what I've said in this thread AFAIK, is conflating anything.

Edit. I understand what you're arguing, what I don't understand is why you're arguing it.

Edited February 24, 2023 by dimreepr

[iNow]

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

you are conflating my personal dislike with the persons engaging in such

You didn’t say you disliked penises being inserted into your own butt. You said you disliked the idea of others doing this. You’re saying I’ve misrepresented you?

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

you are saying that my sexual orientation is learned not genetic so I can learn to become gay?

No. That is not an accurate representation of my position.

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

So my coconut analogy is a strawman thus rendering my arguments weak. But your fashion analogy is fine

It wasn’t my fashion analogy. I was replying to another poster who introduced it. 
 

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

nobody has come up with a god reason why I should change my personal tastes. <…> why should I change my personal tastes inline with others, yet those others are free to maintain theirs?     

Are others here persisting in outdated beliefs that feed oppression and ostracization and persecution? If so, I’ll push back on them, too.

And I DID give a reason. The world would be better. Other posters even acknowledged this as a valid point, even if not sufficient for you personally. 

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

If you feel you fall under into this category and don't like it, then maybe you should change your attitude a bit. 

Maybe, indeed. I would never dig in my heels against the possibility of me being a better version of myself in the manner you have continued to do here. 

6 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I'm more than happy to explore the origins of my dislikes, I'm more than happy to change my attitude towards certain things if those things are unjustifiably offensive towards others. 

Good. Let’s end with that then. 

[Intoscience]

On 2/24/2023 at 1:05 PM, iNow said:

You didn’t say you disliked penises being inserted into your own butt. You said you disliked the idea of others doing this. You’re saying I’ve misrepresented you?

Yeah, just because I personally don't like the idea of it why should that have any influence on the person doing it. I'm more than happy to express my dislike of anal sex to my friends gay or otherwise. Why should that have any influence on my attitude towards them personally? I don't like the idea of someone putting a cigarette in their mouth, I find smoking distasteful. What is the difference?   

On 2/24/2023 at 1:05 PM, iNow said:

No. That is not an accurate representation of my position

Well you seem to be saying that my dislike for gay sex is learned and I should change my feelings. But you are more than happy to accept that a gay person is born that way and we should respect theirs. Why do you not respect mine? What is the difference?

On 2/24/2023 at 1:05 PM, iNow said:

Maybe, indeed. I would never dig in my heels against the possibility of me being a better version of myself in the manner you have continued to do here. 

I'm asking a genuine question. Why would changing my personal sexual tastes make me a better person? And if so why would that not apply to other people also?

If I was a pedophile or rapist then yeah there is a very good moral case with strong social justification for me to learn to change my sexual tastes.

But I'm just heterosexual, no different than someone who is homosexual. Where we just have differing tastes in sexual activities whats the problem?? 

On 2/24/2023 at 1:05 PM, iNow said:

On 2/24/2023 at 6:20 AM, Intoscience said:

I'm more than happy to explore the origins of my dislikes, I'm more than happy to change my attitude towards certain things if those things are unjustifiably offensive towards others. 

Good. Let’s end with that then.

I don' know how to change my sexual tastes even if I wanted to. No more do I know how to change my dislike for coconuts or cigarettes even if I wanted to. Though with the latter there is a good case for not changing my tastes since cigarettes are proven to be bad for your health.

This said, I don't feel any distaste towards people who engage in smoking or eating coconuts, provided they don't inflict such on me passively or otherwise. Convince me with some compelling argument why this is any different to me disliking the act of gay sex?  

On 2/24/2023 at 1:04 PM, dimreepr said:

I understand what you're arguing, what I don't understand is why you're arguing it

Because I'm asking why I should change my personal tastes?? If so what are the benefits?? If so why mine and not others?? 

Why are my personal sexual tastes in anyway offensive to others??

In my view, arguing that my personal tastes are wrong and they should align with social trends is discriminative towards me and an example of "wokeness" going too far, or rather - hypocritical.   

Edited February 27, 2023 by Intoscience
spelling

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Because I'm asking why I should change my personal tastes?? If so what are the benefits?? If so why mine and not others?? 

No one is asking you too, it's up to you if you want to aquire a taste; so, why are you still arguing about it?

If you don't like it, don't taste it; but you'll have to accept a certain amount of societal pushback, think of it like your mother saying "if you don't eat your greens, you can't have any pudding.": the other side of the coin, so to speak, IOW sometimes it's better to just grin and bear it; it's not a poison, it's just yuk. 😝

 

 

4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Why are my personal sexual tastes in anyway offensive to others??

In my view, arguing that my personal tastes are wrong and they should align with social trends is discriminative towards me and an example of "wokeness" going too far, or rather - hypocritical.   

See above. 🙄

[Intoscience]

26 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

No one is asking you too, it's up to you if you want to aquire a taste; so, why are you still arguing about it?

If you don't like it, don't taste it; but you'll have to accept a certain amount of societal pushback

But they are, iNow has even suggested that my personal tastes are "borderline bigoted" and that I should really consider changing them. If I was offensive towards homosexuals then yeah sure iNow has a very valid point and I would be making self improvements by changing my attitude. But why should anyone be offended by my personal sexual distastes if I don't attack anyone who engages in such activities?  

Why should I endure social pushback because I don't want to engage in gay sex? 

By the way, your analogy to eating greens makes no sense. My mother insisting I eat my greens has the intent of improving my health based on scientific data. What are the benefits of anal sex, other than personal pleasure for those who enjoy such? 

So all I'm arguing is that my personal tastes are being conflated with my personal feelings/actions towards others.

40 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

IOW sometimes it's better to just grin and bear it; it's not a poison, it's just yuk.

One person's poison is another person's cure.😉

I don't like anal sex I find it yuk, but others do and they find it delightful. Fine I have no problem with that at all.

So what is the problem??  

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, Intoscience said:

Why should I endure social pushback because I don't want to engage in gay sex? 

Because you're talking about it, instead of grinning... 😉

[Intoscience]

36 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Because you're talking about it, instead of grinning... 😉

Exactly!!! you have hit the nail on the head

Just smile and wave, hey...

[Genady]

Be polite.

In related news: Girl Scout sells out entire cookie inventory after drag queens and other gay bar patrons rush her stand: ‘Everyone was so friendly and kind’ (msn.com)

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I don't like the idea of someone putting a cigarette in their mouth, I find smoking distasteful. What is the difference?   

Cigarette smoking is something which harms others not engaging in it. It's a behavior with addictive and negative health outcomes for all involved. It can be extinguished (haha... see what I did there?) with effort and training. For the most part, that is not true of our sexuality (or the sexuality of OTHERS which is the actual topic here).

Human sexuality, the ways we are attracted to others, and the manner in which those attractions express themselves are quite different. They're tied into our self-identity, our history, and so much more.

But what's different? Well, for one: The sexual preferences of OTHERS has zero impact on you or others, unlike second hand smoke or increased costs to each of us as individuals for healthcare.

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

you seem to be saying that my dislike for gay sex is learned and I should change my feelings.

I think that would be a good thing, yes. It would be better humanity as a whole if fewer people disliked "gay sex." It's really no different than white people disliking when a "colored boy" lays with a "white lady." Exact. Same. Structure. and exact same causes... a culture unaccepting of them. 

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Why would changing my personal sexual tastes make me a better person?

You keep conflating your personal sexual tastes (which nobody here is challenging) with your dislike of the tastes of others. Have we not made this repeatedly clear on the preceding 9 pages of discussion?

This entire section is moot (including the bit where you immediately think of pedophilia as the next step after homosexuality... despite it having clear issues of consent and obvious problems with power dynamics). 

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I don' know how to change my sexual tastes even if I wanted to.

Me either, but nobody other than you is talking about this.

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

Why should I endure social pushback because I don't want to engage in gay sex? 

Again, this is not and never has been the topic under discussion here. Unsure how much more plain this can be made. 

 

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

I don't like anal sex I find it yuk, but others do and they find it delightful. Fine I have no problem with that at all.

But you DO have an issue / problem with it. You have said so yourself. Repeatedly. Throughout this thread. It's the EXACT thing we've been discussing for 8 pages now:

On 2/15/2023 at 2:02 AM, Intoscience said:

I find the thought of same sex gender sex distasteful

On 2/16/2023 at 3:51 AM, Intoscience said:

I personally find the act of same sex gender sex distasteful <...> I just find it repulsive

On 2/16/2023 at 8:27 AM, Intoscience said:

I dislike the act of gay sex (learned or innate is irrelevant)

On 2/17/2023 at 1:41 AM, Intoscience said:

I find the idea of gay/lesbian sex acts distasteful. My prejudice is towards the act

On 2/21/2023 at 1:37 AM, Intoscience said:

I probably sit somewhere in between the 2 definitions. - A mild feeling of revulsion towards the act of gay sex.  

 

If I read you correctly, all of that repulsion and disgust is the same to you as "having no problem at all" with it? If so, you're using those terms in ways I've never previously encountered. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by iNow

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

Exactly!!! you have hit the nail on the head

Just smile and wave, hey...

You could just spit it out, but that would be rude... 🙂

[iNow]

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

an example of "wokeness" going too far

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone lashed out at wokeness. It's almost too predictable sometimes. 

https://www.naacpldf.org/woke-black-bad/

Quote

“It’s hard to get people to demonize human beings and lives and history. But it’s easy to get them to demonize a word. And if you can use that word as a placeholder for those people, for caring about those people, then it’s easy to demonize instead of saying, ‘We’re just gonna stop caring about people,’” Harriot concludes.

Watson agrees, “When I think of political figures like DeSantis and the rampant fight against critical race theory — you are really trying to erase history and trying to erase knowledge that we need to grow better as a people. The fact that you are trying to hide these experiences all for the comfort of your white fragility is troubling, harmful, and, most importantly, dangerous. And that’s literally everything that woke goes against.”

 

[MigL]

I wonder what is mre dehumanizing, 'woke' or 'bigot' ?

[zapatos]

I know that when someone calls me 'woke' they are using it as a pejorative, but it never bothers me. I've always tried to better understand how words and actions might have a negative impact on others, and modify accordingly. I'm really not sure why they think it is an insult. I'd have the same reaction if someone tried to insult me by proclaiming I always try to live a healthy lifestyle.

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

I wonder what is mre dehumanizing, 'woke' or 'bigot' ?

I've learned many things over the course of my life, and some of those were definitely an awakening. Like figuring out the HMO scam that took the place of actuarial-based health insurance. Learning that wages had decoupled from productivity back in Nixon's day so "raises" barely stretched to cover inflation. And doing some research into some ugly local history that led me to my current awakening about black people and indigenous people and people of color and the boot that white people have had on their necks for quite some time. LGBTQ folks have also been held back and held down.

For me, waking up to injustice is a huge learning experience. I didn't mean to stand on anybody's neck, but I wear the boots, and I think it's up to me to try to help these folks up, or at least stop stepping on them. In that light, the woke person is trying to remove the boot from the neck, while the bigot keeps applying more pressure. Which is more dehumanizing?

[Lorentz Jr]

20 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Learning that wages had decoupled from productivity back in Nixon's day

If you study macroeconomics for a while, you'll learn that there's no reason for wages to be coupled to productivity. Just the opposite, in fact. When all workers become more productive, the result is a productivity glut, which inevitably leads to layoffs and downward pressure on (real) wages. The whole argument for wages increasing with productivity is a combination of political moralizing and a naïve application of microeconomic reasoning.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Lorentz Jr

[MigL]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

the woke person is trying to remove the boot from the neck, while the bigot keeps applying more pressure. Which is more dehumanizing?

I fully understand that, and that is not the issue. 
My post was in response to

5 hours ago, iNow said:

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone lashed out at wokeness. It's almost too predictable sometimes. 

https://www.naacpldf.org/woke-black-bad/

Quote

“It’s hard to get people to demonize human beings and lives and history. But it’s easy to get them to demonize a word. And if you can use that word as a placeholder for those people, for caring about those people, then it’s easy to demonize instead of saying, ‘We’re just gonna stop caring about people,’” Harriot concludes.

Watson agrees, “When I think of political figures like DeSantis and the rampant fight against critical race theory — you are really trying to erase history and trying to erase knowledge that we need to grow better as a people. The fact that you are trying to hide these experiences all for the comfort of your white fragility is troubling, harmful, and, most importantly, dangerous. And that’s literally everything that woke goes against.”

And I must admit a mistake.
I read it as 'dehumanize' in my hurry, instead of 'demonize'.
My apologies; but why was offense taken ?

I have my own ideas as to why 'wokeness' is not looked on favorably like 'enlightenment' of the 17-8 century, but that is a subject for another thread.

[iNow]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

I wonder what is mre dehumanizing, 'woke' or 'bigot' ?

Is one not allowed to posit that specific thoughts or individual feelings might possibly be borderline bigoted without universally condemning the entire person thinking or feeling them as themselves a bigot? 

 

[zapatos]

3 hours ago, MigL said:

My apologies; but why was offense taken ?

 

I often find that you see things that I do not. For example, I missed the part where someone took offense. Which one of us did that?

[Knowledge Enthusiast]

I think that it is a flaw to believe that everything that exists must in some way provide an advantage. Evolution after all is predicated on random mutations, which means that even though over time, it is hard to imagine bad mutations to allow for survival in our harsh world, it does not automatically mean that just because you observe something, that is must give great advantages. Homophobia is not something I understand well but it could very easily be a something that tagged along all this while.

[Intoscience]

16 hours ago, iNow said:

You keep conflating your personal sexual tastes (which nobody here is challenging) with your dislike of the tastes of others. Have we not made this repeatedly clear on the preceding 9 pages of discussion?

This entire section is moot (including the bit where you immediately think of pedophilia as the next step after homosexuality... despite it having clear issues of consent and obvious problems with power dynamics)

You have done this throughout the entire thread, a pattern that I see you often do when you disagree with someone. 

Your attempt to play me as the bigot in this thread won't wash. Taking snippets of comments I've made then conflating them to make me appear bias towards people or groups of people to support your own arguments is quite typical of you. 

Lets just agree to disagree since we have spent pages arguing each other and clearly it won't get resolved.

I'll just smile and wave.

15 hours ago, iNow said:

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone lashed out at wokeness. It's almost too predictable sometimes.

There you go, I knew you would bite and straight away jump on a comment in an attempt to undermine my view or comments. 

Yep, woke too far is very clear when it demonstrates hypocrisy. 

I'll leave it at that. 

[iNow]

You’ve made several personal comments about me as a person.  Me as a whole. 

My comments were about this one specific thought and feeling you have, specially regarding homosexual males and how they’re affectionate with each other. 

I challenged your idea. Your thinking, not you as a human. 

Do you understand why this difference in our approaches is important?

18 hours ago, Intoscience said:

thread, a pattern that I see you often

18 hours ago, Intoscience said:

quite typical of you. 

18 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I knew you would bite and straight away jump

 

[Intoscience]

6 hours ago, iNow said:

You’ve made several personal comments about me as a person.  Me as a whole. 

My comments were about this one specific thought and feeling you have, specially regarding homosexual males and how they’re affectionate with each other. 

I challenged your idea. Your thinking, not you as a human. 

Do you understand why this difference in our approaches is important?

 

Yes, I have made an observation, based on your comments across countless threads. You are clearly a very intelligent and well informed person, I respect this. I do agree with you on other subjects and more than willing to express this. The recent thread on homelessness being one example.  However I feel that you are clever with the way you snippet other poster's comments in a way that may misrepresent their intent or the context. You have demonstrated exactly my point in your reply.  

I understand (I think) your argument but I don't agree. I still stand by my feelings and comments. I don't believe that its constructive either way to conflate a personal taste with respect to feelings towards people with differing tastes.    

[iNow]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:17 PM, iNow said:

right now today in the actual present in the actual reality we share, my state ALONE has a staggering NINETEEN (19) bills targeting the LGBTQ community, and there are 340 (three hundred and forty) more being actively pursued in the other 49 state legislatures (an average of 7 each). 

We're a LONG effing way away from "normality" and lack of "threats." We must ask ourselves which side we're going to be on, because there is no middle ground on issues like this.

On 2/23/2023 at 11:43 AM, MigL said:

Maybe that is why you are so jaded, and calling people ( borderline ) bigots.
It's due to your 'environment'.

Eight Republican lawmakers introduced a bill yesterday proposing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage in Iowa.

My environment is OUR environment, and while I may be closer and more plugged into it all than you are, you're hardly isolated or independent from what's happening. This mindset is becoming worse in many parts of the world. I just happen to be the part of YOUR world who is calling attention to it today. 

[MigL]

6 hours ago, iNow said:

Eight Republican lawmakers introduced a bill yesterday proposing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage in Iowa.

I feel for you, my friend.
But that's a fight I can't fight

[iNow]

29 minutes ago, MigL said:

I feel for you, my friend.
But that's a fight I can't fight

I disagree. It was only a decade ago I was advocating in favor of prop 8 and gay marriage etc. We can all be advocates. That convinces more to become allies. That’s the cushion we need to prevent such legislation from moving forward (even up there in the Niagara region). ✌🏼