The Paradox of thinking

[CrystalMagic]

Before you answer, think about what I wrote. Have you ever wondered why we can't understand the thinking of our brain? What if there is a defense mechanism? Why don't we know how our thoughts appear? Do you understand what I wrote about? I mean, we can't understand our thinking. We can't scan our brains. Do you understand what I'm saying? I have a question if we understand our thinking, can it cause us problems? Do we have a defense mechanism that prevents us from understanding how we think? We divide our thinking according to different characteristics, but we do not understand how a thought appears? Why is that? Are there people who understand this? Can we be aware of our own thoughts? Perhaps it's like how to know what you have a dream? Perhaps the people of the future will think differently from us?

[Genady]

1 hour ago, CrystalMagic said:

Before you answer, think about what I wrote.

How long?

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, CrystalMagic said:

Before you answer, think about what I wrote. Have you ever wondered why we can't understand the thinking of our brain? What if there is a defense mechanism? Why don't we know how our thoughts appear? Do you understand what I wrote about? I mean, we can't understand our thinking. We can't scan our brains. Do you understand what I'm saying? I have a question if we understand our thinking, can it cause us problems? Do we have a defense mechanism that prevents us from understanding how we think? We divide our thinking according to different characteristics, but we do not understand how a thought appears? Why is that? Are there people who understand this? Can we be aware of our own thoughts? Perhaps it's like how to know what you have a dream? Perhaps the people of the future will think differently from us?

Are you expecting an answer to every one of those questions?

[CrystalMagic]

7 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Are you expecting an answer to every one of those questions?

No. You can express your thought in a form that is convenient for you.

[joigus]

Can a part of something map the totality of that something? Can a code-key pair decode the whole message it's a part of?

Think about it. Maybe the answer is "yes." If so, it would have to be an exceptionally clever code-key pair.

So I suppose my answer is "I don't know."

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

Have you ever wondered why we can't understand the thinking of our brain?

We are just not there yet. Understanding the thought process requires taking steps from A to Z. 'A' was simply knowing that the brain is where thoughts occur. We then had to develop tests to look at brain. That further understanding led to additional tests and technologies. Continue the iterative process. The brain is a tough nut to crack. We'll get there eventually.

2 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

What if there is a defense mechanism?

Seems unlikely. How would we have evolved a defense to 'understanding the brain'? Surely there would have been a 'threat' of understanding the brain before a defense developed. What is the 'threat'?

2 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

Can we be aware of our own thoughts?

That seems self evident.

 

[MigL]

It seems, no one has a clue, nor understands, your thinking ...

[Genady]

In addition to the difficulties caused by sheer complexity of the brain, we cannot make experiments on a functioning human brain, except few in very limited cases. This makes the research very difficult and the data collection very slow and often just incidental. This is a big reason why, as @zapatos said, we're not there yet. 

[CrystalMagic]

@joigus @zapatos @MigL @Genady

I understand what you want to say. I'm not asking you for an exact answer. I'm sorry if you thought I was demanding that you give an accurate answer. That's not so. I just want to hear your opinion.

She @ hasn't given me a profile yet, I probably need to write codes. And I do not know how to write a signature with my rights, maybe it's too early?

I'll get used to it.

Edited January 29, 2023 by CrystalMagic

[iNow]

4 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

Have you ever wondered why we can't understand the thinking of our brain?

No, because it’s a false premise. We DO understand a LOT about the “thinking of our brain.” Perhaps you meant YOU don’t or can’t understand?

4 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

Why don't we know how our thoughts appear?

Which thoughts? There are many, generally with different causes. 

4 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

We can't scan our brains.

Lol. We’ve been able to do exactly that for decades. 

4 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

Perhaps the people of the future will think differently from us?

One can only hope. 

[Genady]

You have placed this topic in the Psychiatry and Psychology forum, but your questions seem rather be focusing on brain function. Are you sure it shouldn't go to the Neuroscience forum? On the other end of the spectrum, maybe it belongs to the Philosophy forum? This is how unclear it is what you are asking about.

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

I understand what you want to say. I'm not asking you for an exact answer. I'm sorry if you thought I was demanding that you give an accurate answer. That's not so. I just want to hear your opinion.

No one assumed you were demanding. We're responding to what you posted. You can always alter the direction of the discussion if we are not addressing exactly what you wanted to examine. 

[CrystalMagic]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

You have placed this topic in the Psychiatry and Psychology forum, but your questions seem rather be focusing on brain function. Are you sure it shouldn't go to the Neuroscience forum? On the other end of the spectrum, maybe it belongs to the Philosophy forum? This is how unclear it is what you are asking about.

 

24 minutes ago, zapatos said:

No one assumed you were demanding. We're responding to what you posted. You can always alter the direction of the discussion if we are not addressing exactly what you wanted to examine. 

I think that I probably do not know the term of this phenomenon from scientific fanastics. The ability to see the work of our brain as we see how we move our fingers. We are one with the brain and the brain is one with us, no matter how strange it sounds. We cannot deceive our brain, but it is not hidden from us. A new state full of self-understanding. This is difficult to explain. But I'm sure I'm not the first one to talk about it.

[Genady]

9 minutes ago, CrystalMagic said:

The ability to see the work of our brain as we see how we move our fingers.

This is actually known quite well. So well that it is used to convert brain signals to movement of artificial limbs in amputees.  

[CrystalMagic]

20 minutes ago, Genady said:

This is actually known quite well. So well that it is used to convert brain signals to movement of artificial limbs in amputees.  

No, you don't understand what I want to say. The thing is, I can't explain it. I can tell you that this is not in our world right now. A person with this ability will think differently. He can erase his memory if he wants to. He won't be able to get a boost from alcohol because he'll know what's going on with his brain. He will be able to remember what he needs. He will be able to concentrate well. He will be able not to think about what he does not want to think about. He will be able to think only about what he likes. He will know about the problems of his brain and how to solve them and how not to get big problems. He will be able to accurately determine the time. Does that sound great? But the whole problem is that it has such capabilities, how will a person understand what he needs? do we know what we want? Will a complete connection with our brain give the answer to the question what do we need?

[Genady]

8 minutes ago, CrystalMagic said:

No, you don't understand what I want to say. The thing is, I can't explain it. I can tell you that this is not in our world right now. A person with this ability will think differently. He can erase his memory if he wants to. He won't be able to get a boost from alcohol because he'll know what's going on with his brain. He will be able to remember what he needs. He will be able to concentrate well. He will be able not to think about what he does not want to think about. He will be able to think only about what he likes. He will know about the problems of his brain and how to solve them and how not to get big problems. He will be able to accurately determine the time. Does that sound great? But the whole problem is that it has such capabilities, how will a person understand what he needs? do we know what we want? Will a complete connection with our brain give the answer to the question what do we need?

I think I understand now what you are talking about. In this case, I also know which forum this thread belongs to. The forum called, Speculations.

[zapatos]

19 minutes ago, CrystalMagic said:

No, you don't understand what I want to say. The thing is, I can't explain it. I can tell you that this is not in our world right now. A person with this ability will think differently. He can erase his memory if he wants to. He won't be able to get a boost from alcohol because he'll know what's going on with his brain. He will be able to remember what he needs. He will be able to concentrate well. He will be able not to think about what he does not want to think about. He will be able to think only about what he likes. He will know about the problems of his brain and how to solve them and how not to get big problems. He will be able to accurately determine the time. Does that sound great? But the whole problem is that it has such capabilities, how will a person understand what he needs? do we know what we want? Will a complete connection with our brain give the answer to the question what do we need?

What makes you think this will ever happen?

[CrystalMagic]

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

What makes you think this will ever happen?

This is also one of the questions. Maybe it will never happen. But if people don't destroy themselves, does that mean they will somehow change and change their thinking?

[zapatos]

11 minutes ago, CrystalMagic said:

This is also one of the questions. Maybe it will never happen. But if people don't destroy themselves, does that mean they will somehow change and change their thinking?

I'm not sure what it is you want to discuss. You proposed a very specific change to the way humans' brains might work, but it seems like it is simply a scenario you made up off the top of your head. It is very unlikely that we can pick some random yet very specific change to human brains and expect that change to materialize. I could just as well pick numbers for a lottery but there is no reason to think that I'm going to be correct.

[iNow]

4 hours ago, Genady said:

You have placed this topic in the Psychiatry and Psychology forum, but your questions seem rather be focusing on brain function. Are you sure it shouldn't go to the Neuroscience forum?

Wait, what? This place has folders?!? Since when? 

2 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

The ability to see the work of our brain as we see how we move our fingers.

They’re the same thing. 

2 hours ago, CrystalMagic said:

We cannot deceive our brain, but it is not hidden from us

Are you familiar with Dissociative Identity Disorder, formerly known as multiple personalities? 

1 hour ago, CrystalMagic said:

he'll know what's going on with his brain. He will be able to remember what he needs. He will be able to concentrate well. He will be able not to think about what he does not want to think about. He will be able to think only about what he likes. He will know about the problems of his brain and how to solve them and how not to get big problems. He will be able to accurately determine the time.

He will move closer to those abilities through practice and time. And more practice. Over more time. It sort of is just called life. 

[sethoflagos]

1 hour ago, CrystalMagic said:

The ability to see the work of our brain as we see how we move our fingers. We are one with the brain and the brain is one with us, no matter how strange it sounds. We cannot deceive our brain, but it is not hidden from us. A new state full of self-understanding. This is difficult to explain. But I'm sure I'm not the first one to talk about it.

Just one example of many similar cases.

What would be the result of your conscious self being able to manipulate at will the hard wiring of your visual cortex and alter the (currently subconscious) pre-processing of the information coming from your eyes?

As there are many, many more ways of making a mistake than of making an improvement, any change you made would almost certainly be destructive with consequences for your future survival. May it therefore be reasonable to assume that evolution would try to make it as difficult as reasonably possible to do this?

On a more general scale, wouldn't it be a good idea for evolution to limit the scope of your consciousness to the minimum necessary for survival and reproduction? 

We should perhaps be grateful for having sufficient conscious awareness to provide the opportunity to enjoy our friendships, interests and cultures free of the endless computational burden of having to consciously process every single nerve impulse occurring in our body.

So no, our sense of self and our total brain functionality cannot operate on an equal footing. Our survival demands that most of the complex computational processing and maintainance of vital service runs subconsciously in the background, leaving our consciousness intelligence to tackle changing conditions and novelties that evolution is ill-equipped to anticipate.  

[Genady]

3 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

most of the complex computational processing and maintainance of vital service runs subconsciously in the background, leaving our consciousness intelligence to tackle changing conditions and novelties that evolution is ill-equipped to anticipate.  

Moreover, after we learn consciously a new skill and become good in it, it moves into our subconsciousness releasing the consciousness for other tasks. E.g., driving, playing an instrument, reading, etc. 

[sethoflagos]

6 minutes ago, Genady said:

Moreover, after we learn consciously a new skill and become good in it, it moves into our subconsciousness releasing the consciousness for other tasks. E.g., driving, playing an instrument, reading, etc. 

Exactly.

[iNow]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

Wait, what? This place has folders?!? Since when? 

Derp. My bad. Yeah, I knew that. Kindly please disregard. Darned near forgot we even have a folder for Sculptures Made of Almonds:

https://www.scienceforums.net/forum/110-sculptures-made-of-almonds/

[DeckerdSmeckerd]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:04 PM, CrystalMagic said:

Before you answer, think about what I wrote. Have you ever wondered why we can't understand the thinking of our brain? What if there is a defense mechanism? Why don't we know how our thoughts appear? Do you understand what I wrote about? I mean, we can't understand our thinking. We can't scan our brains. Do you understand what I'm saying? I have a question if we understand our thinking, can it cause us problems? Do we have a defense mechanism that prevents us from understanding how we think? We divide our thinking according to different characteristics, but we do not understand how a thought appears? Why is that? Are there people who understand this? Can we be aware of our own thoughts? Perhaps it's like how to know what you have a dream? Perhaps the people of the future will think differently from us?

Quantum particles? Quantum thinking? Your mind is in the quantum?

Edited November 27, 2023 by DeckerdSmeckerd